Is accuracy actually improving anymore / Will it in future?

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Is accuracy actually improving anymore / Will it in future?

Post by ebr love » 12 Oct 2017, 5:27 pm

I was doing some reading on the Tikka website about the T3X, here.

The page goes on to say best this, evolution that, modular, improved, new, redesigned, improved, blah blah blah... The big pitch on how amazing it is.

Then for all that it says "No matter which model you choose, 1 MOA accuracy is guaranteed."

After such a pitch I read that and I think, meh, so what? I'm not knocking that level of accuracy by any stretch, but really for a long time now 1 MOA has been pretty old hat.

You don't see someone shoot a 1 MOA group at the range and think, holy s**t that's amazing, do you.

Tikka, Sako, Remmington, Howa, all the rest, all pretty safe to say will shoot 1 MOA with a half decent load. Even better with a really tailored one.

Makes me ask, for all the whiz-bang new fancy redesigns, new and supposedly improved stuff Tikka have done with this rifle, what have they actually accomplished. Nothing?

Have we hit the pinnacle and is it all just marking now?

What do you guys think.
TIKKA T3 TAC .300 WIN MAG
HOW SPORTER 270 WIN
HOWA YOUTH .204 RUGER
MARLIN 1889 .38-40
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Re: Is accuracy actually improving any more, or will it ever

Post by bladeracer » 12 Oct 2017, 6:07 pm

I tend to agree. I think I'd be hard pressed to declare that my modern rifles enable me to shoot any more accurately than I was shooting back in the eighties with the .222 Remington and .243. Although certainly the new hybrid VLD bullets have dramatically changed very long range shooting - say 600m and further.

I think improvements now will be small until somebody develops a means of having the barrel behave exactly the same with every shot. That might require a heating or cooling system to keep the barrel at a consistent temperature regardless of the firing of bullets through it, or perhaps a new barrel material that simply does not get hot at all, perhaps a ceramic, or a barrel material that has virtually no friction at all on the bullet.

And getting away from wood is a big step forward. The only thing poly stocks offer over a machined metal chassis is cost, but I think the gap is closing right up already with CNC technology.

I think it's only a matter of time until bullets are all monolithic machined rather than a lead core floating within a jacket. I'm also sure we're not too far off being banned from casting lead bullets anymore.
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Re: Is accuracy actually improving anymore / Will it in futu

Post by southwest shooter » 12 Oct 2017, 7:17 pm

Good points .
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Re: Is accuracy actually improving anymore / Will it in futu

Post by Member-Deleted » 12 Oct 2017, 8:27 pm

As I see it gun makers do make very accurate rifles but they're not sold as every day guns
The manufacturers have turned the whole industry into a money making machine they turn out just average rifles and make parts
to better that rifle at an extra cost like triggers , stocks, glass bedding,
Why aren't all these on the rifle when we buy it well because the mark up on rifles and parts is about 200-300% my mate tells me
Then they use the gun laws to add a little more not much but enough , when I bought my sako 22-250 in 2010 its gone up nearly $500
since ''ridicules''
Then if you want better accuracy you have to true the breech and barrel and glass bed it why wasn't this done when they built it
No because of the extra they make out of bits and pieces
Know wonder they're asking huge prices for precision rifles although their prices are extreme $2000 to $4000 on top of the rifle price
For a truing job ,maybe stock, trigger and fluting and that's only hunting rifles I haven't even touched on target rifles god knows the cost of some
of those
As far as the laws go they think if you want a rifle bad enough you will pay for it even if the price is extremely high
I would like to find out the actual cost of manufacturing a rifle because things are done cheaper in numbers and I doubt they make one at a time
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Re: Is accuracy actually improving any more, or will it ever

Post by Carter » 15 Oct 2017, 10:54 am

bladeracer wrote:I'm also sure we're not too far off being banned from casting lead bullets anymore.


It has begun elsewhere already. The last US lead smelter closed down a few years ago, and their military has set their policy to be lead-free not too many years from now.

That will surely flow on to civie shooters.
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Re: Is accuracy actually improving anymore / Will it in futu

Post by Blackened » 15 Oct 2017, 11:06 am

ebr love wrote:Tikka, Sako, Remmington, Howa, all the rest, all pretty safe to say will shoot 1 MOA with a half decent load. Even better with a really tailored one.


You're right, Tikka could say their rifles will shoot 1/2 with the right load and it would be a reasonable statement.

The problem is they'd be putting the guarantee outside of their control. They could promise 1/2 MOA but if someone is using poor factory ammunition or mismatched hand loads they'll fail to deliver on the promise through no fault of their own.

They don't want to be stuffing around with testing or returning rifles because someones crappy handload wouldn't shoot 1/2, or teaching endless shooters handloading in order to meet the guarantee.

More sensible from that perspective to have a less ambitious accuracy target that is achievable with almost any load.

Outside of significant material or technology changes I don't see anyone promising much different in years to come.
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Re: Is accuracy actually improving anymore / Will it in futu

Post by Gamerancher » 15 Oct 2017, 11:29 am

Grandadbushy wrote "The manufacturers have turned the whole industry into a money making machine".
Well mate, what do you want? Do you expect them to sell at cost? :unknown:
If you want better triggers, match-grade actions and barrels, bedded in high quality stocks you have to pay for it.
A "standard" grade rifle is a lot cheaper and quicker to produce.
One that has the extra time and effort put in to it , built to tighter tolerances, that has better fit and finish and uses higher quality components, just has to cost more.
A rifle made from a couple of pieces of basically "round-bar" on a production line is going to be a lot cheaper than one made by hand from machined forgings.
You 'aint going to get a Formula 1 racing car for the price of a Hyundi.
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Re: Is accuracy actually improving anymore / Will it in futu

Post by Member-Deleted » 15 Oct 2017, 12:39 pm

Gamerancher I agree but the standard they claim the rifles are at when purchasing one is not up to scratch for some claims therefore they
are expensive for the claim
I don't expect any thing for nothing as I have been In business my self but I do expect reasonable quality when buying a medium ranged rifle
For instance I bought a sako 25-06 not long back could not stop the barrel from moving from side to side 2mm either way no matter how
tight I put the locking screws now for premium priced rifles like sako that's piss poor
Price is not the problem it's the quality you get for a given price if you want quality you pay for it in my opinion
Also in my opinion the price hasn't dropped but quality has even in low budget rifles
I think rifle manufacturers should at least have better quality control for the prices they're asking for these rifles on the lower end of the scale
Then if you want a formula 1 rifle then it's going to cost you but the Hyundi rifle shouldn't have to change the steering arms to make it 1/2 driveable
he deserves some quality for his money

Pure and simple ask people do they think they get reasonable quality in rifles even on the lower budget ones for the price they pay for them
one of us is going to be surprised

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Re: Is accuracy actually improving anymore / Will it in futu

Post by bladeracer » 15 Oct 2017, 1:43 pm

grandadbushy wrote:Pure and simple ask people do they think they get reasonable quality in rifles even on the lower budget ones for the price they pay for them one of us is going to be surprised


I prefer cheaper rifles as I shoot for practical reasons rather than aesthetics.
I think rifles are better but actually cheaper now than they were when I started shooting in the early eighties.

I don't recall what I paid for my 10/22 in '83 but I think $160?
Nowadays the 10/22 is $700, although how inflation is affected by our current laws is an unknown.

And I think I paid $199 in '83 for my unscoped Remington 788 in .222 Remington.
The Remington 783 is $700 scoped nowadays, but I'm not sure it's a nice a rifle as the 788 was. The 788 was a bit special I think, it was their budget rifle but many, many owners considered it superior to the much more expensive Model 700.

I know I paid $159 in '83 for my sporterised scoped M96 Swede and $99 in '84 for my original Carl Gustav M38, both from Fullers.
And I picked up my Husqvana M38 for $600 last year. But I think milsurps are just going to get more expensive as stocks dwindle.

I was paying $1.80 a box for Aussie Ammo .22LR (tax exempt) in '83. I'm sure there must've been cheaper stuff available, but I was limited to whatever my local Elders store stocked. Thirty-four years on and we have all these bulk packs that come at around $5 per 50rds - I find that extraordinary, and I think the modern ammo is significantly higher quality as well.

My .222Rem Lee Loader was $29.75 in '83 and now costs $52.
And my RCBS Rotary Case Trimmer was $39 in '83, the current improved version is $210.

The only components I can quote prices on are a box of 100 Hornady 75gn HP .243" bullets which were $16 in '84, and nowadays would be around $45-$50.

So, for me, I think advancements have not greatly improved performance, but have allowed them to build better-quality firearms, and ammunition, for less money. I would also guess that nowadays they probably do larger production runs which also keeps the cost down. From '67-'83 they only made 525,000 788's in all calibers.
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Re: Is accuracy actually improving anymore / Will it in futu

Post by Member-Deleted » 15 Oct 2017, 11:19 pm

Yeah Bladeracer I can see what your saying but I still think that quality comes at a bigger price but I suppose it's what the individual
requires one mans rifle is not necessarily anothers choice and what one sees is not always what the other sees
I consider myself politely corrected maybe I sometimes expect too much from manufacturers
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