MSRC SSAA National Lever Action Silhouette Championships

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Re: MSRC SSAA NATIONAL LEVER ACTION SILHOUETTE CHAMPIONSHIPS

Post by bladeracer » 22 Apr 2018, 10:40 pm

Gamerancher wrote:Just use your .44mag for both rifle and pistol cal, plenty of folks do.


Yes, that's my intention now, although the Uberti is a nicer shooting rifle than the Marlin.

I'm still inclined to move the Marlin on though and get a Rossi in .44 Mag instead, so I can shoot cast bullets.

I doubt the sight on the Norinco is acceptable either though as it's not specific to the 9422 model.
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Re: MSRC SSAA NATIONAL LEVER ACTION SILHOUETTE CHAMPIONSHIPS

Post by Gamerancher » 25 Apr 2018, 12:10 pm

Okay, let's settle down here and stop over thinking it.
So long as you haven't modified the Williams to make it fit it will be fine. You only run into problems when you make up "adapters" to make a sight fit a rifle it wasn't made for. Simply drilling and tapping to mount a sight that is made for a lever gun is okay. There are various Williams sights out there that list "any flat sided receiver" on the mounting instructions.
We had one shooter last year who got himself into the Australian team using a straight out of the box Marlin with standard barrel sights.
Micro-groove Marlins will shoot cast bullets very well, it's just a matter of finding a load that works. A bullet that is .001" to .002" over bore diameter and keep the velocity down below 1700 is a good place to start. Jacketed bullets are allowed if that is what works in your gun.
I have a Model 94 Winchester in .44 mag with a 12 groove barrel that shoots cast bullets well enough for this game. 240gr cast bullet on top of 7 grains of Trailboss works well for pistol calibre and I used it in Tassie a few years ago for rifle class as well. Try 19 - 21 gr of 2205 also.
It 'aint benchrest, "minute of ram" is all that is required.

Message to anyone who is thinking about attending this shoot, please don't be put off attending because you don't think you'll be competitive. At the end of the day you'll be graded and only competing against shooters of similar abilities, much like golfing handicaps. If you have a lever gun that suits, just come along, have a crack and enjoy yourself. You can shoot in any or all events, so don't be put off if you don't have enough guns :lol: :friends: :drinks:
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Re: MSRC SSAA NATIONAL LEVER ACTION SILHOUETTE CHAMPIONSHIPS

Post by bladeracer » 25 Apr 2018, 1:23 pm

Gamerancher wrote:Okay, let's settle down here and stop over thinking it.
So long as you haven't modified the Williams to make it fit it will be fine. You only run into problems when you make up "adapters" to make a sight fit a rifle it wasn't made for. Simply drilling and tapping to mount a sight that is made for a lever gun is okay. There are various Williams sights out there that list "any flat sided receiver" on the mounting instructions.
We had one shooter last year who got himself into the Australian team using a straight out of the box Marlin with standard barrel sights.
Micro-groove Marlins will shoot cast bullets very well, it's just a matter of finding a load that works. A bullet that is .001" to .002" over bore diameter and keep the velocity down below 1700 is a good place to start. Jacketed bullets are allowed if that is what works in your gun.
I have a Model 94 Winchester in .44 mag with a 12 groove barrel that shoots cast bullets well enough for this game. 240gr cast bullet on top of 7 grains of Trailboss works well for pistol calibre and I used it in Tassie a few years ago for rifle class as well. Try 19 - 21 gr of 2205 also.
It 'aint benchrest, "minute of ram" is all that is required.

Message to anyone who is thinking about attending this shoot, please don't be put off attending because you don't think you'll be competitive. At the end of the day you'll be graded and only competing against shooters of similar abilities, much like golfing handicaps. If you have a lever gun that suits, just come along, have a crack and enjoy yourself. You can shoot in any or all events, so don't be put off if you don't have enough guns :lol: :friends: :drinks:


If this is the case, then perhaps the rulebook should reflect that? The statement "...only if that sight is specifically manufactured for that model rifle." is pretty clear to me. It would also help if it explained that manufacturing a custom sight for your specific rifle is unacceptable, I have never been a fan of any rulebook forcing a competitor to purchase somebody else's idea of what is most suitable for the task. I have done what I needed to do to get my rifle shooting acceptably for my needs, it is a shame that it does not comply with the rules for this class of competition, but it works for me.

I have no doubt that some people can shoot extraordinarily well with open sights. Generally, I don't these days. I tend to prefer an aperture sight. Although the BSA Sportsman 5 sights seem to work very well for me, if I could swap them across to the Uberti and get similar accuracy that would be ideal :-) The OEM Uberti sights were giving me 300mm groups at 50m shooting prone, primarily due to the huge bead completely obscuring the target. Compared with the 1894 OEM sights with which I can shoot 75mm groups at 50m prone.

I agree, Microgroove Marlins _can_ shoot cast quite well, once you've done the hard yards to find a suitable bullet and load. So far, cast accuracy has eluded my efforts, but I'm still trying :-)
1-2-thou over works for everything else, but does not work for me at all in the Marlin, it groups like a smoothbore. Minimum 3-thou over works for me, as long as the alloy is hard, certainly too hard for hunting. I've been working within the 1000-1300fps window with cast in the .44 Mag so far, with and without checks, and tried them lubed and powdercoated. I've tried them from .429" up to .434" in three mould designs. I'm using Trailboss, AP70N and AR2205. So far, my most accurate load is a 240gn JHP at 1750fps at 3MoA at 100m. This is the load I would be using for competition, but I really would prefer a bullet I can cast myself. I think my best group to date with cast bullets is 10MoA (150mm at 50m), off the bench.

I am fully aware of the minimal accuracy required for this, but 10MoA (150mm groups at 50m) is well short of "minute of ram". I've got the Uberti down to 5MoA (75mm at 50m) consistently, off a bench, which I think is about the minimum needed from the rifle, but that's with a plated bullet - meaning I can't cast them myself. Jacketed XTP's look like improving that slightly, but again, I can't make those either. But 5MoA only works if you are skilled at offhand shooting, as the group only just covers the targets, with little leeway for error. If your offhand skills need more work then you need a more accurate load to allow for shooter error.

I have no problem in coming to shoot even if I miss every single target, there's little enjoyment when there is no learning curve. But I have to weigh spending a day on the road to get there and back, and a day lost on the farm, against simply walking out of my office and spending a few hours shooting here, like I do most days. If something needs doing I can put the rifles away, sort the chore, and go straight back to shooting. I have zero interest in posting a higher score than somebody else, or coming home with a trophy. My only goal is to come home a wiser shooter than when I went out.
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Re: MSRC SSAA NATIONAL LEVER ACTION SILHOUETTE CHAMPIONSHIPS

Post by sungazer » 25 Apr 2018, 3:09 pm

I always take the attitude you don't know what you don't know. I go out and mix with the best ask any and all types of questions, start conversations that may lead to who knows. At the end of the day if I can take home just one more thing i didn't know before it was worth the trip.
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Re: MSRC SSAA NATIONAL LEVER ACTION SILHOUETTE CHAMPIONSHIPS

Post by sungazer » 06 May 2018, 8:16 pm

So who went and how did you guys fair? Also excuses for not going ect? Keep the thread going and give it an ending it deserves :) :clap:
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Re: MSRC SSAA NATIONAL LEVER ACTION SILHOUETTE CHAMPIONSHIPS

Post by bladeracer » 06 May 2018, 8:32 pm

sungazer wrote:So who went and how did you guys fair? Also excuses for not going ect? Keep the thread going and give it an ending it deserves :) :clap:


I didn't bother in the end. Probably a good thing if the weather up there was anything like it's been down here.
Decided I really can't see any additional value to shooting under other people's rules after all, I can have a much more enjoyable time shooting at home :-)
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Re: MSRC SSAA NATIONAL LEVER ACTION SILHOUETTE CHAMPIONSHIPS

Post by Shootermick » 13 Apr 2020, 9:58 pm

Sorry to revive an old thread, but.. will a 357 suffice in the pistol category, or is 44 mag the only way to go? I’m only just becoming interested in learning about cowboy lever action silhouette, and I’m hoping to get along to a match as a spectator to see how it all works and decide if want to give it a go.
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Re: MSRC SSAA NATIONAL LEVER ACTION SILHOUETTE CHAMPIONSHIPS

Post by groundhog » 14 Apr 2020, 12:04 am

Shootermick wrote:Sorry to revive an old thread, but.. will a 357 suffice in the pistol category, or is 44 mag the only way to go? I’m only just becoming interested in learning about cowboy lever action silhouette, and I’m hoping to get along to a match as a spectator to see how it all works and decide if want to give it a go.

Hi Shootermick

A 357 is perfect for pistol cartridge. It can also be used in the Rifle match out to 200m. Plenty of good projectiles and loads available for them. Pistol Cartridge matches will have people shooting everything from a 22 Mag up to a 45LC. The 357 is very popular though. Hope this helps.
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Re: MSRC SSAA NATIONAL LEVER ACTION SILHOUETTE CHAMPIONSHIPS

Post by Shootermick » 14 Apr 2020, 7:37 am

Thanks groundhog.
Are there any points in particular that competitors look for in a rifle? Such as barrel length, type of sights, even brand and model etc?
Cheers.
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Re: MSRC SSAA NATIONAL LEVER ACTION SILHOUETTE CHAMPIONSHIPS

Post by Gamerancher » 14 Apr 2020, 9:44 am

Accuracy! :sarcasm: ( sort of )
Asking which brand of rifle is like asking which brand of car to buy. The Winchester versus Marlin debate is like the Ford versus Holden argument. Throw in the few other brands around and then the old versus new, the list goes on.
Whatever rifle takes your fancy, you'll find examples of every different brand on the line at a competition.
Reliability, while this is not a speed event, you are limited to 2 minutes for each bank of 5 targets. You need to set your rifle up so that it functions reliably every time you are on the line. Stay away from any second hand rifles that have been "slicked" for Western Action.
Barrel length comes down to personal choice, longer barrels give a longer sight radius but also change the weight and balance of a rifle.
Most folks choose a "peep" sight of one form or another. Receiver mounted or tang, another personal choice.

Basically, there is no "one" perfect rifle set-up for this sport. You need to find one that fits you, that balances well, fitted with sights that work for your eyes, that functions reliably and has the accuracy required to hit what you point it at.

The average rifle on the line would be a Marlin or Winchester ( including clones ) with a 20 to 24 inch barrel with a Williams receiver sight and a Lyman 17A front sight.

My normal advice would be to go to a shoot and have a look at what people are using. We're a friendly sort of bunch and willingly let new shooters have a few shots out of our rifles to see what they like, unfortunately, with the shut-downs at the moment, that is not going to happen any time soon.

Post what sort of rifle and set-up you think you'd like and I'm sure you'll get a critique from a few shooters, ( hopefully those that actually shoot this discipline. :thumbsup: )
Also, please do not confuse this sport with Western Action shooting,.... we don't play "dress-ups". :lol:
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Re: MSRC SSAA NATIONAL LEVER ACTION SILHOUETTE CHAMPIONSHIPS

Post by Maxjon » 14 Apr 2020, 10:30 am

Interesting
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Re: MSRC SSAA NATIONAL LEVER ACTION SILHOUETTE CHAMPIONSHIPS

Post by Shootermick » 14 Apr 2020, 11:16 am

Gamerancher wrote:Accuracy! :sarcasm: ( sort of )
Asking which brand of rifle is like asking which brand of car to buy. The Winchester versus Marlin debate is like the Ford versus Holden argument. Throw in the few other brands around and then the old versus new, the list goes on.
Whatever rifle takes your fancy, you'll find examples of every different brand on the line at a competition.
Reliability, while this is not a speed event, you are limited to 2 minutes for each bank of 5 targets. You need to set your rifle up so that it functions reliably every time you are on the line. Stay away from any second hand rifles that have been "slicked" for Western Action.
Barrel length comes down to personal choice, longer barrels give a longer sight radius but also change the weight and balance of a rifle.
Most folks choose a "peep" sight of one form or another. Receiver mounted or tang, another personal choice.

Basically, there is no "one" perfect rifle set-up for this sport. You need to find one that fits you, that balances well, fitted with sights that work for your eyes, that functions reliably and has the accuracy required to hit what you point it at.

The average rifle on the line would be a Marlin or Winchester ( including clones ) with a 20 to 24 inch barrel with a Williams receiver sight and a Lyman 17A front sight.

My normal advice would be to go to a shoot and have a look at what people are using. We're a friendly sort of bunch and willingly let new shooters have a few shots out of our rifles to see what they like, unfortunately, with the shut-downs at the moment, that is not going to happen any time soon.

Post what sort of rifle and set-up you think you'd like and I'm sure you'll get a critique from a few shooters, ( hopefully those that actually shoot this discipline. :thumbsup: )
Also, please do not confuse this sport with Western Action shooting,.... we don't play "dress-ups". :lol:

Thanks for all that info Gamerancher, sounds like a lot of fun. I’ll be taking your advice and going along for a look at some stage, but who knows when that might be with all that’s going on at the moment.
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Re: MSRC SSAA NATIONAL LEVER ACTION SILHOUETTE CHAMPIONSHIPS

Post by Gamerancher » 14 Apr 2020, 11:48 am

No worries, :thumbsup:
Just noticed your "list" in your post. You've already got two of the three rifles you need to have a crack at this sport. Your BL22 will be just fine for the small-bore and your Marlin 30-30 will handle the rifle class.
Really, any rifle in a pistol cartridge chambering will suffice, if you were already thinking you needed a .357 it will be more than adequate for the class.
As Groundhog stated, people use anything from .22mag up to .45 Long Colt. The .357 is popular as are .25-20, .32-20 and .44 mag.
The pistol calibre event shoots on half-size targets out to 100m. .22 mag is a bit marginal, they have a bad habit of "ringing" targets and targets must fall to count. Everything above that has enough energy to knock down all hit targets. I have been using a .32-20 lately, shooting very mild 120 grain cast bullet loads and haven't lost any targets to "ringers". ;)

You might find some videos on youtube to see how a match runs. ( More likely to find U.S ones )
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Re: MSRC SSAA NATIONAL LEVER ACTION SILHOUETTE CHAMPIONSHIPS

Post by Shootermick » 14 Apr 2020, 12:21 pm

Gamerancher wrote:No worries, :thumbsup:
Just noticed your "list" in your post. You've already got two of the three rifles you need to have a crack at this sport. Your BL22 will be just fine for the small-bore and your Marlin 30-30 will handle the rifle class.
Really, any rifle in a pistol cartridge chambering will suffice, if you were already thinking you needed a .357 it will be more than adequate for the class.
As Groundhog stated, people use anything from .22mag up to .45 Long Colt. The .357 is popular as are .25-20, .32-20 and .44 mag.
The pistol calibre event shoots on half-size targets out to 100m. .22 mag is a bit marginal, they have a bad habit of "ringing" targets and targets must fall to count. Everything above that has enough energy to knock down all hit targets. I have been using a .32-20 lately, shooting very mild 120 grain cast bullet loads and haven't lost any targets to "ringers". ;)

You might find some videos on youtube to see how a match runs. ( More likely to find U.S ones )

Yeah, the BL22 is a really nice rifle, and pretty accurate just with the factory open sights too. The Marlins original sights were pretty ordinary, and I put some ghost rings on it, then a rail and a red dot as well. If I did take the game up, I’d probably trade the Marlin on something different. In 357 I was thinking about a Chiappa 1892, a Winchester clone as you said. Or would a 44 mag cover both rifle and pistol categories?
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Re: MSRC SSAA NATIONAL LEVER ACTION SILHOUETTE CHAMPIONSHIPS

Post by bladeracer » 14 Apr 2020, 12:47 pm

Shootermick wrote:Thanks groundhog.
Are there any points in particular that competitors look for in a rifle? Such as barrel length, type of sights, even brand and model etc?
Cheers.


One thing I really do like about the Uberti 66 is the tighter twist rate allowing heavier bullets. I have a Rossi 92 in .357 as well now but haven't tried my 200gn loads in it yet.
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Re: MSRC SSAA NATIONAL LEVER ACTION SILHOUETTE CHAMPIONSHIPS

Post by Shootermick » 14 Apr 2020, 3:10 pm

What about Henry rifles? They don’t seem to be too popular in this field. I know they’re not a replica of the models of days gone by, so is that the reason? Or is there another?
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Re: MSRC SSAA NATIONAL LEVER ACTION SILHOUETTE CHAMPIONSHIPS

Post by Gamerancher » 14 Apr 2020, 3:57 pm

A mate has a Henry in .357, I shot it a couple of times, seemed to be a nice gun. Had a 20' heavy octagonal barrel. There's a few people with Henry .22's in the sport.
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Re: MSRC SSAA NATIONAL LEVER ACTION SILHOUETTE CHAMPIONSHIPS

Post by Shootermick » 14 Apr 2020, 4:22 pm

Gamerancher wrote:A mate has a Henry in .357, I shot it a couple of times, seemed to be a nice gun. Had a 20' heavy octagonal barrel. There's a few people with Henry .22's in the sport.


So there’s no disadvantage to not having a loading gate either then. Do you remember what sort of sights he had fitted on it?
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Re: MSRC SSAA NATIONAL LEVER ACTION SILHOUETTE CHAMPIONSHIPS

Post by Gamerancher » 14 Apr 2020, 5:33 pm

The rifle I speak of had a Marbles tang sight fitted. The Henry's load through a slot in the mag tube and have a tubular follower that houses the spring, similar to most lever action .22's. ( The original 1860 Henry loaded through the top end of the magazine, the loading gate on the side of the action was the "King's improvement" (Pat.) that came out in the 1866 Winchesters )
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Re: MSRC SSAA NATIONAL LEVER ACTION SILHOUETTE CHAMPIONSHIPS

Post by Shootermick » 14 Apr 2020, 6:15 pm

Gamerancher wrote:The rifle I speak of had a Marbles tang sight fitted. The Henry's load through a slot in the mag tube and have a tubular follower that houses the spring, similar to most lever action .22's. ( The original 1860 Henry loaded through the top end of the magazine, the loading gate on the side of the action was the "King's improvement" (Pat.) that came out in the 1866 Winchesters )

I considered a Henry when I bought my Marlin. They fit a few skinner sights to the Henry’s, on top of the reciever. Are those types of sights any good, or do they lack the adjustments needed for competition shooting?
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Re: MSRC SSAA National Lever Action Silhouette Championships

Post by No1_49er » 14 Apr 2020, 7:40 pm

WRT Henry's, there's a lot of folk in the US who are now using, and liking, the 24" octagon barrel Frontier 22LR for the smallbore match.
And now that Henry has introduced a loading gate variant of their centrefire rifles (and not deleted the forward mag tube loading port), Marlin/Winchester are getting a bit of a nudge from that maker as well.
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Re: MSRC SSAA National Lever Action Silhouette Championships

Post by Gamerancher » 15 Apr 2020, 9:58 am

Ultimately you need sights that suit your eye, everyone looks through "iron" sights differently.
Adjust-ability is handy as you shoot at four different sized targets at four different distances. ( Add two more if you are thinking about using the same rifle for both P.C and rifle classes )
While some shooters choose to use a "hot" load that shoots pretty flat and thus almost eliminating the need to adjust sights, ( using slight hold over/under ), a setting for each distance is usually a better thing, especially if you plan on using it for two classes. You 'aint gunna get a load that works from 50 to 200m in a pistol cartridge without adjusting. Sights with repeat-ability or clearly defined settings are preferred.
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Re: MSRC SSAA National Lever Action Silhouette Championships

Post by Shootermick » 15 Apr 2020, 11:54 am

Gamerancher wrote:Ultimately you need sights that suit your eye, everyone looks through "iron" sights differently.
Adjust-ability is handy as you shoot at four different sized targets at four different distances. ( Add two more if you are thinking about using the same rifle for both P.C and rifle classes )
While some shooters choose to use a "hot" load that shoots pretty flat and thus almost eliminating the need to adjust sights, ( using slight hold over/under ), a setting for each distance is usually a better thing, especially if you plan on using it for two classes. You 'aint gunna get a load that works from 50 to 200m in a pistol cartridge without adjusting. Sights with repeat-ability or clearly defined settings are preferred.

That’s makes sense. It will narrow down my rifle choice to one that’s been factory tapped with holes to mount a peep, reciever mounted would by my choice over tang.
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Re: MSRC SSAA National Lever Action Silhouette Championships

Post by Shootermick » 16 Apr 2020, 4:04 pm

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I’ve seen and handled a few Chiappa firearms, and am thinking I might go for something like this one.
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Re: MSRC SSAA National Lever Action Silhouette Championships

Post by Gamerancher » 17 Apr 2020, 9:56 am

I haven't seen any of the current Chiappas, the ones I have seen have been pretty ordinary when it comes to shooting and reliability. I actually had to grab one out of a blokes hands at a comp once, he was about to wrap it around a steel post after it failed for the umpteenth time. They didn't get the nick-name "Crappers" for nothing.
While the colour case does look nice, at those prices I'd probably look at a current Miroku built Winchester instead if you're after a '92 in .357.
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Re: MSRC SSAA National Lever Action Silhouette Championships

Post by Shootermick » 17 Apr 2020, 11:18 am

Gamerancher wrote:I haven't seen any of the current Chiappas, the ones I have seen have been pretty ordinary when it comes to shooting and reliability. I actually had to grab one out of a blokes hands at a comp once, he was about to wrap it around a steel post after it failed for the umpteenth time. They didn't get the nick-name "Crappers" for nothing.
While the colour case does look nice, at those prices I'd probably look at a current Miroku built Winchester instead if you're after a '92 in .357.

I’ll rule a line through them then. The current Winchester’s are pricey, but I won’t rule them out. I’m still keen on a Henry too, thinking a 20” big boy steel, I really like my single shot Henry. I guess if my rifle of choice didn’t come with the factory drilled holes required for a peep it’s not a big deal to send it to a gunsmith to have the new sights properly fitted.
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Re: MSRC SSAA National Lever Action Silhouette Championships

Post by bladeracer » 17 Apr 2020, 12:31 pm

Shootermick wrote:[quote="Gamerancher"I haven't seen any of the current Chiappas, the ones I have seen have been pretty ordinary when it comes to shooting and reliability. I actually had to grab one out of a blokes hands at a comp once, he was about to wrap it around a steel post after it failed for the umpteenth time. They didn't get the nick-name "Crappers" for nothing.
While the colour case does look nice, at those prices I'd probably look at a current Miroku built Winchester instead if you're after a '92 in .357.[/quote

I’ll rule a line through them then. The current Winchester’s are pricey, but I won’t rule them out. I’m still keen on a Henry too, thinking a 20” big boy steel, I really like my single shot Henry. I guess if my rifle of choice didn’t come with the factory drilled holes required for a peep it’s not a big deal to send it to a gunsmith to have the new sights properly fitted.


I have Williams peeps on my rifles, with target knobs on two of them. Williams also offer peeps that slide onto dovetails or pic rails.
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Re: MSRC SSAA National Lever Action Silhouette Championships

Post by Gamerancher » 18 Apr 2020, 9:59 am

The prices on those Chiappas you posted was in the vicinity of the "Japchesters", hence my comment. I believe Williams makes a sight that fits the steel framed Henry big-boy, get the target model with the finger adjustable knobs. The only other thing to get is a thumb-screw to replace the locking one on the side, not compulsory but makes adjustments quick and easy. :thumbsup:
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Re: MSRC SSAA National Lever Action Silhouette Championships

Post by Shootermick » 20 Apr 2020, 10:16 pm

So what are the main disadvantages with a shorter length barrel. There are a couple of new Henry Big Boy carbines for sale, they only have a 16.5” barrel. Is it the shorter sight radius, or a lack of velocity, or something else?? Is there much to be lost/gained on barrel length for this type of shooting?
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Re: MSRC SSAA National Lever Action Silhouette Championships

Post by No1_49er » 21 Apr 2020, 11:13 am

If you're shooting with open (aperture) sights, it's all about having as long a sight radius as you can get. Greater radius (length between front & rear) gives you smaller angular error.
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