Allowable firearms on the range.

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Allowable firearms on the range.

Post by SigSauer gender » 24 May 2018, 3:54 am

Hi everyone, I'm new.
Didn't know if this post should go in Target shooting (as it relates specifically to Gun ranges) or in the legal department.

I was at my preferred SSAA range on the weekend and noticed a sign that stated:
"Any firearm that is capable of using ammunition that can exceed a MUZZLE Velocity of 4100 foot per second (1250meters / second) and Muzzle Energy of 4182 foot pounds (5675 joules) even if the ammunition is downloaded is not permitted to be used on this range. That includes the Lapua .338 and the Barret .416 and the STYR .460"
Then it goes on to mention the Weapons Act of 1990 and say that it is the owner of said firearm to make sure they are not using a firearm on the range that is exceeding these limits...

So at first I thought because it says 4100fps and 4182ft-lbs, that it would mean that the restrictions were on firearms that exceed both of these limitations simultaneously. But after some googeling I found out that of the 3 examples given not one of them come close to exceeding the maximum muzzle velocity, they only exceed the max energy. So I can only assume that the restriction applies to any firearm that could fire ammunition that exceeds either the energy or velocity.

Which is a worry as now I'm in a pickle, I own a 22-250 and I shoot 50gr pills at around 3700fps which is irreverent because in theory my rifle could be loaded with 40gr @ 4220fps. And I have witnessed many other people using on this range .22-250, .17 remington and .220 swift, all capable of exceeding the velocity limits of the range. I have also witnessed people shooting .300 wby mag, and .460 wby mag which are capable of exceeding the max energy for the range.

I also found information on a QRA website stating that .22-250 is not permitted on there ranges as it exceeds max velocity, (but you can shoot .308 all day long)

Please enlighten me, have I gone wrong somewhere or are people breaking the law every day at your typical rifle range.
It seems ridiculous to me that these small varmint rounds are not permitted, but you can shoot a .270win or a .300 win mag, or any other rifle that is 1000m capable and can drop large game. Seems like all should fear the mighty .17rem and its 4400 fps!

If this is the case, its very frustrating as I probably would not have purchased a .22-250. Also if this is the case there needs to be more awareness as I have never heard of this absurdity before and I'm sure many others haven't either.
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Re: Allowable firearms on the range.

Post by Daddybang » 24 May 2018, 3:57 pm

Sorry can't help with ya ,query as I refuse to go to ranges to shoot and lucky enough to not have to. But thought I'd say :welcome: :drinks:
I'm sure someone will be able to help ya out though :thumbsup: :drinks:
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Re: Allowable firearms on the range.

Post by sungazer » 24 May 2018, 4:29 pm

This is not a one size fits all restriction and is different for every range. Some ranges will only have a energy limit and others both the velocity and energy, and others that are limited in calibre. There is no point in getting all upset about it there are lots of different things that are taken into account when determining the safety template for a rifle range. Some ranges you will see baffles in place as well to limit the elevation that the muzzle can be lifted some ranges only allow firing from certain positions eg from a bench through a baffle or prone.
If you want to change these things you need to get really involved with the range or club committee and work hard to find out how the range has been certified. What the comments were, what if any the restrictions are and why. What you want to do and if there is a way to do it safely given the template of the range. Be prepared to convince the committee changes can be made if they can be as most people do not like change.
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Re: Allowable firearms on the range.

Post by duncan61 » 24 May 2018, 6:58 pm

If you are at a range I would be pushing 69gr Matchkings at around 3200.How accurate would 40gn pills be?Unless you get chatted I would not worry 2 much
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Post by SigSauer gender » 24 May 2018, 8:40 pm

So at the range I have been using 50gr GMX pills that are going around 3700fps. So I'm not exceeding the velocity limit. But my concern is that the range rules are stating any round that is capable EVEN WHEN DOWNLOADED is not permitted. Wouldn't that mean I am not allowed to shoot 22-250 even if my bullets are not going 4100fps?
Or am I just not allowed to use 22-250 with 40gr pills (even when downloaded) because these specific pills are capable of exceeding the velocity limit? sorry I'm confused...
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Post by Baronvonrort » 24 May 2018, 8:42 pm

Hornady list muzzle velocity of 4400fps for 24gr NTX and 4225 fps for 32 gr Vmax for the .204 Ruger.
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Post by SigSauer gender » 24 May 2018, 8:50 pm

The rifle is a hunting rifle and 90% of what I plan on doing with it is hunting. It just want to be able to try different hand loads at a rifle range till I find something shooting nicely. (which might take me several trips to the range) Then i'll just mass produce that load for hunting trips and probably never shoot it on a gun range again.

Basically I just don't want to be breaking the law.

I talked to a bloke shooting a massive safari rifle on the range (for memory .460wby mag) and he even let me take a shot, was a blast. And I asked him about how he is allowed to shoot this on the range when its so powerful, and he basically said; they are not concerned about these relatively short range big hunting rounds they are worried about long range military type bullets like the .338lap etc.
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Post by Wylie27 » 24 May 2018, 9:15 pm

Heres a tip, ask the people that run the range, they will help you out.

Everyone else will be speculating as you didnt mention the range.
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Re: Allowable firearms on the range.

Post by duncan61 » 24 May 2018, 9:20 pm

enjoy
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Post by Jon79 » 24 May 2018, 9:42 pm

I've given up on the SSAA ranges, only about 2 within 200km of me have tried contacting both to see about when I could turn up to do the farmer assist target competency and cant get a reply from either
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Re: Allowable firearms on the range.

Post by SigSauer gender » 24 May 2018, 10:27 pm

I have sent an email to the range asking for clarification 2 days ago and am awaiting a reply. I didn't have time to ask in person last time I was there, and the range is just over an hours drive for me so I don't have the luxury to just pop in.
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Post by bladeracer » 25 May 2018, 2:29 am

duncan61 wrote:If you are at a range I would be pushing 69gr Matchkings at around 3200.How accurate would 40gn pills be?Unless you get chatted I would not worry 2 much


Not many .22-250's can stabilise 69's.
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Re: Allowable firearms on the range.

Post by SigSauer gender » 25 May 2018, 3:00 am

bladeracer wrote:
duncan61 wrote:If you are at a range I would be pushing 69gr Matchkings at around 3200.How accurate would 40gn pills be?Unless you get chatted I would not worry 2 much


Not many .22-250's can stabilise 69's.


correct, I would need a tighter twist rate for 69gr. Mine is a 1:12 and seems to prefer 50gr.

So is the general consensus that as long as my bullets are going slower than 4100fps I'm fine?
Or should I not be shooting 22-250 on this range at all?

Hopefully SSAA will get back to my email soon. I might try calling them a few times tomorrow.
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Re: Allowable firearms on the range.

Post by bladeracer » 25 May 2018, 3:25 am

SigSauer gender wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
Not many .22-250's can stabilise 69's.


correct, I would need a tighter twist rate for 69gr. Mine is a 1:12 and seems to prefer 50gr.

So is the general consensus that as long as my bullets are going slower than 4100fps I'm fine?
Or should I not be shooting 22-250 on this range at all?

Hopefully SSAA will get back to my email soon. I might try calling them a few times tomorrow.


I don't see anywhere in that sign that states it is law. Is there anything in the Weapons Act about such a restriction?
And putting the onus of enforcement back onto the owner indicates that SSAA don't seem interested in enforcing it's themselves, they're just covering their arses in case there is some kind of incident.
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Post by Gwion » 25 May 2018, 7:50 am

This is not to do with 'law' for the individual shooter. It is about range certification requirements (or possibly pet restrictions by the range operators, which is not unheard of).

As suggested previously, speak to the range operators or Chief Range Officer.
Take the 250 and another rifle, just in case, and ask if you can shoot the 250 or not.

In the end, it is the range's liability at stake, not your legal standing. Worst that can happen to you is they ask you to not use the 250 directly.

Although, if a mishap were to occur the ssaa insurance might be denied and the range might attempt to pass liability onto you... this part is purely speculation, though.
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Post by TheDude » 25 May 2018, 8:42 am

I’m guessing this is Ripley as I’ve seen the sign and spoken to Ron, the club president about it. They aren’t concerned with 22-250, 204 Ruger etc or the big game type magnums. It’s more the 338 lap, 375 cheytac etc which aren’t allowed based on range template.
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Post by SigSauer gender » 25 May 2018, 1:35 pm

Hi guys I just got off the phone to SSAA, and the bloke I was talking to said exactly what “TheDude” just said.
They are not concerned about fast varmint guns or Large slow moving safari guns. They only restrict the long range “scary sniper type” bullets.
Last edited by SigSauer gender on 25 May 2018, 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by marksman » 25 May 2018, 7:24 pm

because they are scary :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Post by duncan61 » 25 May 2018, 8:31 pm

I became interested in this topic and was surprised at how many .224 rifle chamberings can exceed 4100fps.My .222 wont make it but quite a few do
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Re: Allowable firearms on the range.

Post by southwest shooter » 26 May 2018, 7:42 am

SigSauer gender wrote:I have sent an email to the range asking for clarification 2 days ago and am awaiting a reply. I didn't have time to ask in person last time I was there, and the range is just over an hours drive for me so I don't have the luxury to just pop in.

Can't be that important to you then .
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Post by bladeracer » 26 May 2018, 8:19 am

southwest shooter wrote:
SigSauer gender wrote:I have sent an email to the range asking for clarification 2 days ago and am awaiting a reply. I didn't have time to ask in person last time I was there, and the range is just over an hours drive for me so I don't have the luxury to just pop in.


Can't be that important to you then .


What sort of response is that?
He didn't have time to ask them to explain their poorly-worded sign, he lives an hour away, and he has emailed them without a response as yet. What would you suggest he do, a full page notice in the paper perhaps?
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Post by Sergeant Hartman » 26 May 2018, 8:25 am

No maybe take a day off work, drive down and ask them... then realise they not open that day as they didn't ask.. so go bal home then take another day off work and go next week... hopefully not the same day. Unless it's one of those ranges that open once a month he should still have some days left
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Post by duncan61 » 26 May 2018, 10:19 am

Its a rifle range.It is being over thought.I have been around 22/250 and they are loud but in what universe will a range not allow a peashooter .224 as overly powerfull?? Just go get zeroed then go shoot something
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Re: Allowable firearms on the range.

Post by bladeracer » 26 May 2018, 11:27 am

duncan61 wrote:Its a rifle range.It is being over thought.I have been around 22/250 and they are loud but in what universe will a range not allow a peashooter .224 as overly powerfull?? Just go get zeroed then go shoot something


I suspect these range templates are a sneaky way of effectively banning the higher-powered rifles, and nothing more. Make it harder for people to be able to use them and they're less likely to spend the money on them.
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Post by duncan61 » 26 May 2018, 1:46 pm

We have come a long way from necked down 303.Is it a good thing???
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Post by Member-Deleted » 15 Jun 2018, 1:48 pm

I can understand restriction at some ranges based on calibre's and types, mainly due to licensing requirements, but I am really perplexed as to the reason why some clubs ban some legally available firearms based on appearance, if the firearm can be legally purchased or modified, there would be no licensing restrictions, which leaves personal prejudices.
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Re: Allowable firearms on the range.

Post by straightshooter » 18 Jun 2018, 8:19 am

What most grumblers don't seem to understand is that all ranges are licenced by a state firearms registry and are inspected from time to time and approved by an inspector of ranges.
Each range is approved on the basis of some kind of safety template and the maintenance of range discipline.
The operators naturally want the continued use of the range and their worst nightmare is idiots shooting bullets in places where they shouldn't or otherwise being non compliant with the rules the inspector has set for that particular range.
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