Which .303 ?

[taffy4x4]

Hi Folks,
My late father served with the British army in North Africa during WW2. When I was young and a war film would come on the TV he would always comment about his rifle and his Bren gun most of the time to say that they were the best infantry weapons around. Occasionally he would talk about things he did and one story he told was about him and his mates setting the sights on their Lee Enfields to 1000yds and seeing who could hit the enemy first, another was about boiling the kettle to clean the barrels with boiling water.
As I get older I come to appreciate things he did and told me more and more, so I've decided to try and get a similar rifle to his, unfortunately I don't know much about it, from my reading I think it was probably a No.4 Mk1.
Having looked on the 'net and in shops I've discovered that there is a huge price variation between what looks like very similar rifles.
After my long winded intro what I'm asking for is some advice on what to look for, am I correct in assuming I'm looking for the right model, is place of manufacture important and any other information you may be able to pass on.
Thanks in advance.

[AZZA'S HJ47]

Depends on what you want to spend you can spend a few grand if you are that way inclined. Have a look and see whats available near you my grandfather would also talk about shooting the old 303's. So when the time came i grabbed a 1917 BSA no1 mk3 that he spoke so highly about. I love the old WW guns its hard to stop at one.

[AusTac]

Not to familar with that particular war time period, but have you got any photos? If not some research or photos of that era would be good, so you/someone can id the series of rifle most likely used during that period i'm guessing it was a no 1 mk 3 as i'm fairly sure no4 mk 1's were mostly post ww2 manufacture, i own a no4 mk 1 and wouldn't trade it for anything, its by far my most favorite rifle, i've had afew before coming into this one and my personal preference is a british manufactured rifle, had a american no4 mk 1* and just found it so clunky and stocky if that makes sense compared to the slightly nicer british ones.

Things to look for are worn chambers, stretched actions, headspace issues, barrel issues ( worn rusty etc ) cracked stocks and post war modifications, it's up to you how authentic you want it to be but i assume you also want a shooter, also when purchasing if you can take it out of the stock that greatly increases your knowledge on the overall condition of the rifle, have alook at the wood and draws area at the back near the trigger guard as they are often cracked from oily goo and recoil.

Happy hunting, would be interested to know what you get.

Theres another fella on here that would also be worth talking to, goes by the name of no1mk3 i think

[pete1]

Don't want to side track the thread, but why we're talking .303. Whats the difference between .303 and .303-25?

[AusTac]

Don't want to side track the thread, but why we're talking .303. Whats the difference between .303 and .303-25?

Came about when they banned military calibers for civillian shooters after the war

[Supaduke]

I own a fair few milsurp rifles and all have turned out to be very good shooters. Here is what I have learnt.

Firstly. Be very suspicious of woodwork that is shiny and new looking. More than likely it has been refinished. War era guns should have a few dings and scratches. Be very wary of buying a Milsurp sight unseen. Unless the seller is known to you and trusted or has some sort of return policy. I can recommend Claremont Firearms in Perth.

Check for cracks in the wrist area and around the breech. Unless you have expertise in woodworking steer clear of cracked stocks.

Rifles with stocks slightly beaten up are often good shooters, means they are used, means they are accurate. Stocks can be cleaned up, dents steamed out etc without losing patina.

Rust? Walk away, especially if in the barrel.

Check the crown is round and free of burrs or damage.

Barrel, remove the bolt and hold the barrel up to the lights. You should be able to see clear and reasonably strong rifling. Any gouges or 'pitting' walk away.

Try and avoid a mismatched bolt. It's not going to mean a gun is no good if it is mismatched, can be the source of various issues however if it's a poor match.

Work the bolt, it should be slick and move freely. Check to see it locks up completely. Check there is not excessive movement when it is locked up.

Shoulder the rifle and look down the sights, it should be square and nicely lined up.

Check the upper hand guards are reasonably snug.

Check that the overall patina matches.

Do your research and learn the market value of what you want to buy. Be suspicious of rifles offered very cheap.

In my experience decent Milsurps start at $600, excluding Mosin 91/30's and carcanos.

Sporterised rifles are a contentious issue. I personally don't like them but some can be good rifles. It decreases the value and any type of sporterising should be reflected in the price.

If possible take a dummy .303 round or projectile. It should sit snuggly in the muzzle , stopping where there ogave finishes. If it drops all the way in the barrel is rooted.

Mismatched hardware is a personal issue. Things like buttplates, band springs etc don't affect performance and sometimes need to be replaced simply because the original is broken. As mentioned earlier, look for a consistent patina and wear pattern.

Understand they are old rifles, they should look old.

Work the safety, dry fire it, work the bolt, depress the follower with your finger, adjust the sights. Work every moveable part to ensure proper function.

That's all I can think of right now.

Edit: when you decide on what rifle you want, do your research. Learn the different model designations. Learn what features are specific to that particular rifle. Again mismatched parts are a personal preference but at least learn what is correct so people don't try and pull the wool over your eyes.

Good luck

[Supaduke]

Re: my above post, there are exceptions to every rule of course. There are some pretty clapped out rifles out there that shoot brilliantly. I have also noticed that many sellers have NFI what they are selling and will spin you some serious BS. When it comes to Milsurps, knowledge is power.

[vmaxaust]

After my long winded intro what I'm asking for is some advice on what to look for, am I correct in assuming I'm looking for the right model, is place of manufacture important and any other information you may be able to pass on.
Thanks in advance.

Superdukes advice is great.

I would simply add that you should not be fussy regarding a Mark 4 No.1, or a No.2, OR a Mark 3 No.1 Manufacturers like BSA, Fazakerley are more common British made versions but don't discount an Australian made Lithgow Mark 3 No.1 or the U.S made versions from Savage and some others.
You should focus more on lowest bore wear, correct headspace and original bolt. Particularly if you want to shoot the rifle regularly. If all you want is to own one as a momento the physical condition is less relevant.
I would suggest you contact some military gun dealers or a gun shop that actually has a gunsmithing department in house. They may have what you are looking for. You may pay a little more but they will be able to quantify more precisely for you the true condition of any Enfield they offer you.
In Melbourne we have a great gun store that has an excellent gunsmith workshop in house and they do a lot of work on Enfields as well as everything else...
https://www.mialls.com.au/services/gunsmithing/
They are worth a call even though you are in Qld. I've had personal experience with them and although they are not inexpensive their work is first rate. More importantly in your case with limited knowledge I believe you would be better off relying on experts like this to inspect any potential purchase to ensure you don't end up with a worn out piece.
Whoever you call you will need to have some idea of budget. These days you are unlikely to buy an Enfield in very good condition mechanically for anything under $1000.00 They do come up for less but without some expert checking for you I think you are flying blind.

Sam

[Gun-nut]

If you plan on shooting your .303 at somewhat extended range or you want to squeeze as much accuracy out of it as possible with iron sights, try to get your hands on one of the mk1 vernier sights, you'll find them on early war, pre-war and post war models of the no.4. If your willing to spend a little extra money look for a no4 mk2. These are the post war variant of the no4 with the trigger hung from the receiver instead of the trigger guard and are considered more accurate than the standard mk1 or mk1*, Because all the mk2s are post war they're generally in great shape and are easily recognizable by their blond wood stocks (beech wood I believe).

Don't trust what most gun shop owners tell you, they often spout bulls**t to sell a firearm. I was a gun show in melbourne checking out a no5 jungle carbine (looked fake to me) and the owner wouldn't let me remove the top hand guard to check the scallops under the receiver to ensure if it was original (a lot of the no5s were replicated and sold as originals). So its good to go off your own knowledge when searching for milsurps, it seems daunting but there's a lot of info and sources out there to help you.

So to sum up, do your research, know what your looking for and go with your gut feeling. A lot of books on enfields are out there and a lot of enfield forums that focus on really specific things about enfields (markings etc.) So if you end up buying a rifle check out those forums for really detailed information.

[No1Mk3]

G'day Taffy4x4,
If you want a rifle like your father carried, you should buy a No4 Mk1 or No4 Mk1* as these were the most common British issued rifle for WW2. Australia carried on with the No1Mk3 as did India. Maker is not relevant at all, neither British, nor Canadian or American as Britain obtained large numbers of Nth American production for issue to it's troops, so your Dad may have carried any of these. Try and find one with the Singer rear sight, as the 300/600 flip over sight isn't much chop for target work, although it can be swapped for a Singer fairly cheaply if the right rifle comes up. Take heed of Supadukes advice regarding checking for condition, but understand that very good rifles can still be readily found for around $500, and $1000 should buy an excellent example. One good thing about the No4, if you want a bayonet, they are the easiest and cheapest to find, from about $25! Anything else you want to know about wartime No4's drop a line and we'll do our best to help, Cheers.

[Growler]

Have a look at this site, its full of good info mate. http://www.allaboutenfields.co.nz/

[GLS_1956]

I own a No4Mk1, but it is buried in the chest gun safe so I'll have to rely on memory, so as memory serves me, the British and Canadians adopted the No4Mk1 in the early 1930s just a few years before the war broke out, Australia, New Zealand and India continued to use the earlier design No1MkIII. The No4Mk1 differed in having a heavier barrel, receiver mounted aperture rear sight that was adjustable in elevation, and a change in bayonet design. Later on in WWII the British changed the rear sight from the variably adjustable to a "flip L" with two different range setting aperture this was marked No4Mk1*. Since you said they sighted their rifles in for 1000 yd shots I would assume they had the No4Mk1.

My No4Mk1/SMLE/"Smelly" is a good and serviceable rifle The marking on the rifle are in the most part written with an engraving pen and not stamped, there is no clear indication of maker, so I am assuming that the gun was made in either England or Canada and is not clearly marked so to make it harder for enemies to determine point of manufacture, Savage Arms in the USA did make the No4Mk1 for the British and Canadian armies, but these guns are clearly marked Savage. Please find the link to some photo of the No4Mk1.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=no ... =no4mk1&FO

[No1Mk3]

G'day GLS_1956,
Most likely your No4 is British, as the Longbranch rifles are clearly marked. Much wartime production had the markings electro-pencilled to the left side of the receiver and these can be quite faint at times, both of my M47C made rifles, a No4 and a No5, have markings that can only be seen in good light and at a slight angle. Or my old eyes are failing me, one or the other! Cheers.

[taffy4x4]

I would just like to say a sincere Thank You to everyone that has responded, and I must say I never imagined it would get so involved, however I now have a lot more information than I did before and will take my time to find something special.
Once again thank you everybody