Load not right for .357 lever action?

[Obie73]

I've been shooting at the range for a while now and have improved my skills with my Miroku Winchester model 73 lever action .357 magnum with 20" barrel. At the same time I've gotten back into reloading. I've been concentrating on trigger squeeze and focusing on the front bead etc etc and have managed to get my best 5 shot groups with open sights at 50 m down to 1.25 inches (centre to centre measurement) with a basic Caldwell bench rest. Well, I've gotten this group size with 5 consecutive shots twice since January. That's with about three trips out to the range so far this year. I'm pretty happy about that. However, the last time I went to the range a week or so ago I started in on 100m targets. I had naively assumed that my best 1.25 inch 50m groups would result in impressive 3 inch or at the most 3.5 inch groups at 100m. Au contraire!!

Instead, I found that my 100m 5 shot groups, with about 40 rounds worth of trying, were more like 8 or 9 inch groups (I didn't actually measure them. I did however accurately measure my best 50m groups).

My current load I've been using is a 140gr Hornady XTP with 16.2 gr of 2207. It seems to be accurate at 50m.

But it seems the accuracy doesn't hold good out to 100m, for me, with my rifle.

I felt like I was shooting well the other day, so I don't think the 8 to 9 inch groups at 100m were just a case of me not shooting quite so well that day. I feel it was that the bullet performance was more erratic.

My current plan is to put a bit more powder into the load. I've got to be careful though as the 73 action isn't as strong as a 92 action. Does it sound like a bit more powder might be the solution to not the best performance at 100m? That load seems to be good for 50m in that rifle but seems to underperform at 100m.

[bladeracer]

I've been shooting at the range for a while now and have improved my skills with my Miroku Winchester model 73 lever action .357 magnum with 20" barrel. At the same time I've gotten back into reloading. I've been concentrating on trigger squeeze and focusing on the front bead etc etc and have managed to get my best 5 shot groups with open sights at 50 m down to 1.25 inches (centre to centre measurement) with a basic Caldwell bench rest. Well, I've gotten this group size with 5 consecutive shots twice since January. That's with about three trips out to the range so far this year. I'm pretty happy about that. However, the last time I went to the range a week or so ago I started in on 100m targets. I had naively assumed that my best 1.25 inch 50m groups would result in impressive 3 inch or at the most 3.5 inch groups at 100m. Au contraire!!

Instead, I found that my 100m 5 shot groups, with about 40 rounds worth of trying, were more like 8 or 9 inch groups (I didn't actually measure them. I did however accurately measure my best 50m groups).

My current load I've been using is a 140gr Hornady XTP with 16.2 gr of 2207. It seems to be accurate at 50m.

But it seems the accuracy doesn't hold good out to 100m, for me, with my rifle.

I felt like I was shooting well the other day, so I don't think the 8 to 9 inch groups at 100m were just a case of me not shooting quite so well that day. I feel it was that the bullet performance was more erratic.

My current plan is to put a bit more powder into the load. I've got to be careful though as the 73 action isn't as strong as a 92 action. Does it sound like a bit more powder might be the solution to not the best performance at 100m? That load seems to be good for 50m in that rifle but seems to underperform at 100m.

Did you test it again at 50m to ensure nothing has changed in the rifle?

50m 32mm groups is excellent for an old-school lever rifle with iron sight. Those are the best though, what would it be averaging?

Are you using an aperture rear or a notch? I've found a lot of my groups getting larger as distance increases comes down to how clearly I can see the target, or how fine a sight picture I can hold on the target. Especially so with iron sights. Do you really have a front bead sight rather than a blade or post? A bead would probably totally obscure most targets at even 50m and would make precision difficult.

Is the target the same size as you used at 50m or have you doubled it's size to suit the distance? I have to have targets of minimum sizes at different distances to be able to clearly see them. A 60mm diamond works for me only to about 50m, at 100m I want a 120mm diamond.

I like the XTP's as they shoot well for me in most things. Do you know what velocity you're making on 16.2gn of AR2207? I would expect 140gn bullets to be making somewhere around 2000fps depending on your barrel length - longer would be better with the AR2207 I think.

The Miroku is a modern rifle with better alloys than the originals. The toggle system is still not strong, but has been designed to run factory ammunition pressures. Do you have the owner's manual? Does it specify what pressure it's rated to? I think .357Mag is rated at 35,000psi, about the same as 9x19mm.

[in2anity]

Wind

[bladeracer]

Wind

Certainly possible, the XTP has very poor BC (.169). But for groups of that size I would hope the shooter was noticing the wind.

[Obie73]

I'm told that wind is definitely a factor at the range I shoot at. I haven't figured out yet about how to gauge the level of wind other than to aim left of centre if the groups are going to the right. Can wind cause vertical as well as horizontal deflection? My 100m groups were various shapes, mostly fairly oval with the longest axis being the horizontal one but one group (the largest) was a strange boomerang shape of a vertical string of shots morphing into a horizontal string of shots. I've no idea how to interpret that.

Talking with the other guys at the range, most of the best shooter there use 125gr XTP projectiles. Maybe get some 125grainers and see how I go with that load. I think someone said that for that particular range they seem to work well. No idea why. I at first assumed that 125gr would be too light and would be too easily deflected by wind. I guess I was wrong about that.

To answer your questions Bladeracer: I didn't check the gun again at 50m to see if anything had changed. My averages for 50m are much bigger, I would be guessing what the average was. I know that what counts is the average group size. I've been figuring out a sighting strategy for this rifle eg. where to hold the bead in the notch, so a lot of my 50m groups were all over the place as I was figuring out where the bullets were actually going in relation to the sight picture I was using. I'm not saying I can consistently shoot 50m groups that are 1.25". That would be great though, wouldn't it. It's my goal (that or close to it). I've read that others can get the best groups down to 1" at 50m. My results in LA comps so far is no where near as good as this. I'm still C grade.

I use the factory supplied buckhorn sights with the little notch, and a front gold bead sight. The top centre edge of the bead is my precise aim point. Perhaps a blade front would be better. At 50m I've been using the standard '6 pack' red bullseyes that are approx. 10cm wide. For 100m I've been using much bigger round bullseyes, usually black, around 30cm wide. I haven't chronographed any of my loads. I haven't found out yet about the Miroku Win max. pressure but will keep looking.

[bladeracer]

Wind will generally just widen the group if you're shooting from a supported position. I had a look through my logs and found when I was testing the 110gn XTP in my Uberti 66 in gusting wind at 100m off the bench (with aperture rear and blade front) my groups (12rd, 7rd and 6rd) were all 105mm tall, but were from 130mm to 270mm wide. In the same session but at 50m my 8rd group was 78mm, with 6rd in 32.5mm. I tend to shoot more than five rounds to get a realistic idea of what the rifle is doing when playing with heavy, slow, blunt bullets over iron sights.

The lighter bullet can be pushed around more easily, but is travelling faster so is pushed around for less time - it's a balancing act. I really like the Berry's copper-plated hardcast bullets as well, they shoot just as well as the XTP's but are far cheaper.

You're doing very well with the OEM buckhorn sights. Some people can make them work but I struggle with them. I love the theory behind them. With my eyesight I much prefer an aperture rear and blade front. Off the bench at 50m I try to make a load will hold around 40mm for five rounds off the bench, about three-minutes. With iron sights you have to be able to call your shots when you know they're not clean. You should be able to find a load that _is able_ to maintain around 40mm at 50m, even though your own abilities might be grouping them at twice that most of the time.

I'm told that wind is definitely a factor at the range I shoot at. I haven't figured out yet about how to gauge the level of wind other than to aim left of centre if the groups are going to the right. Can wind cause vertical as well as horizontal deflection? My 100m groups were various shapes, mostly fairly oval with the longest axis being the horizontal one but one group (the largest) was a strange boomerang shape of a vertical string of shots morphing into a horizontal string of shots. I've no idea how to interpret that.

Talking with the other guys at the range, most of the best shooter there use 125gr XTP projectiles. Maybe get some 125grainers and see how I go with that load. I think someone said that for that particular range they seem to work well. No idea why. I at first assumed that 125gr would be too light and would be too easily deflected by wind. I guess I was wrong about that.

To answer your questions Bladeracer: I didn't check the gun again at 50m to see if anything had changed. My averages for 50m are much bigger, I would be guessing what the average was. I know that what counts is the average group size. I've been figuring out a sighting strategy for this rifle eg. where to hold the bead in the notch, so a lot of my 50m groups were all over the place as I was figuring out where the bullets were actually going in relation to the sight picture I was using. I'm not saying I can consistently shoot 50m groups that are 1.25". That would be great though, wouldn't it. It's my goal (that or close to it). I've read that others can get the best groups down to 1" at 50m. My results in LA comps so far is no where near as good as this. I'm still C grade.

I use the factory supplied buckhorn sights with the little notch, and a front gold bead sight. The top centre edge of the bead is my precise aim point. Perhaps a blade front would be better. At 50m I've been using the standard '6 pack' red bullseyes that are approx. 10cm wide. For 100m I've been using much bigger round bullseyes, usually black, around 30cm wide. I haven't chronographed any of my loads. I haven't found out yet about the Miroku Win max. pressure but will keep looking.

[deanp100]

In a oerfect word the groups you shot at 50 would have continued on to 100 and would have been basically double the size, in theory and in a vacuum. The gun would have remained capable but external factors took over once you fired it. Your ability to see well enough to aim at the same spot with open sights would be the majority of the problem. 100 metres is a far way and the difference of a few inches is probably indistinguishable with the naked eye and a big round front bead.

[in2anity]

Many blade-sighted shooters use a six-o’clock hold. Myself included. Lollipoping the target is more precise and repeatable than an approximate center of mass.

The reason the group blew out is lack of velocity and poor ballistics. Same reason a 22lr will never go into moa at 200m or rarely even 100m, under anything but perfect conditions.

[Obie73]

If I can just get my 100m groups a little smaller, then I stand a chance of getting into B and who knows maybe one day A grade.

Yes ..the .357 mag is just a big fat .22. Maybe not even as good as a .22 in terms of ballistics, but at least with a bit more energy to it.

Ah well, it is what it is. It's my favourite round. So much fun to shoot.

[Obie73]

When you say blade front sight do you mean literally a front sight coming to a sharp point? Where can you get such front sights?

[bladeracer]

When you say blade front sight do you mean literally a front sight coming to a sharp point? Where can you get such front sights?

No, not pointed, that would be more of a barleycorn like the Kar98k's have, which I hate.
A blade front sight has parallel sides and a flat top, probably between1mm and 2mm thick. I like to file the sides so it wedges, getting thinner at the front, but not by much.

[in2anity]

If I can just get my 100m groups a little smaller, then I stand a chance of getting into B and who knows maybe one day A grade.

Yes ..the .357 mag is just a big fat .22. Maybe not even as good as a .22 in terms of ballistics, but at least with a bit more energy to it.

Ah well, it is what it is. It's my favourite round. So much fun to shoot.

How big's your "hit" region at 100m? Or does it used the rings? If so, how big is your maximum integer at 100m?

[bladeracer]

If I can just get my 100m groups a little smaller, then I stand a chance of getting into B and who knows maybe one day A grade.

Yes ..the .357 mag is just a big fat .22. Maybe not even as good as a .22 in terms of ballistics, but at least with a bit more energy to it.

Ah well, it is what it is. It's my favourite round. So much fun to shoot.

What sort of shooting are you doing (I've never considered old-school levers to be benchrest rifles)? What defines the gradings? What distance and how large is your bull and your V-bull? How many rounds are you firing every month for practicing?

I would start by getting a Williams aperture sight and replacing the round front sight with a blade. The aperture will give you excellent definition of the front sight, and the sharp corners of the front sight will allow you hold it on precisely the same point on the target every shot.

Even the big flat 140gn has a significantly higher BC than the .22LR heeled cast 40gn bullet. I like the 110gn XTP as well, which has a very similar BC to .22LR. If you loaded the 110gn to around 1100fps their trajectory would closely follow .22LR standard velocity (50m zero will drop about 200mm at 100m). The 200gn FTX has a BC of .300 which is very good, but you'll need to push it very hot to get decent velocity, and it's an expensive option for lever-action. I use the Hornady 200gn RN in .38 Special. I haven't tried it in the .357 as I think it'll be too long to stabilise. The Rossi will let me push it a lot harder though so I'll get around to trying it one day.

The 110gn at 2300fps would have about 40mm of drift at 100m in 10mph wind. The 200gn at 1300fps would have about 25mm of drift. The 200gn bullet is out in the breeze almost twice as long though (.17sec to .29sec).

While I do enjoy shooting iron sights my eyesight has deteriorated significantly over the last four years, especially with open sights, which makes it very difficult and less fun than it should be. Aperture sights still work very well for me though. I think the only open sight shooting that I practice nowadays is with the SMLE's, by practice I mean trying to hold groups on paper. I do a lot more aperture sight practice with .22LR than anything else.

When I started practicing .22LR lever-action silhouette (which is shot offhand with iron sights at 40m, 50m, 75m and 100m) my groups were quite large, as you would expect shooting offhand. My first practice was 8/15, 6/15, 5/15, 17/30, so I was averaging 5.5 hits out of every 15rds on each silhouette (the 50m pig is easy, the 75m turkey is hard). After thousands of rounds of practicing over a few months I don't know what the average would be (I stopped recording them after four weeks and 4000rds) but I have put 15/15 on the pig lots of times, and I've put 15/15 on the chicken and ram several times. I don't believe I have ever managed a 15/15 on the turkey - for a while I cut my magazine down to 5rd and I know I have had at least one 5/5 on the turkey. If I shot an average practice round today (which I will do this arvo) of 11/15, 13/15, 9/15 and 11/15 my average would be 11/15, which I'm pretty pleased with, the silhouette practicing helped my offhand shooting an enormous amount. I found some early 2018 target photos which I've scaled off for a rough idea of my group sizes. At 100m, a 50rd offhand group put 47 bullets into 370mm diameter with three fliers just outside that circle (the ram is about 410mm long and 300mm tall) . At 50m I put 15rd into 200mm. I can't find any more recent photos but I'll have to shoot some quite soon to confirm my groups aren't opening up. My point is that simply putting _lots_ of bullets downrange will improve your shooting more than anything you can do with your equipment. Even if you just spent time shooting thousands of rounds of .22LR what you learn will crossover to when you are shooting centrefire.

[Obie73]

I shoot in the "Classic" lever action competitions that SSAA ranges do, at least in Qld. I'm not sure if they do the same competitions in other states. The rules for this are you have to use the factory open sights and the calibers that were introduced before 1935. So, I can't use a Williams peep sight, even if I wanted to.

It's paper targets, at 100m, 50, and 25m. The reason I go on about small, accurate groups with a lever action is because you can only get the best scores in these competitions with the smallest groups that are closest to the centre of the bullseye. I try to get my groups as small as I can with a Caldwell benchrest (just the simplest version). I first need to figure out just how to get the smallest groups regarding loads, and sight picture etc (it sometimes takes a long time to figure this out with open iron sights and a new rifle). I'm pretty new to shooting actually, other than a small amount as a kid, and then briefly as a teenager.

Having figured all this out, I next need to improve my off hand shooting and resting the rifle against a post, which is what the Classic competition requires.

I'm not interested in flat-shooting bolt action rifles with a scope or peep sight like most shooters seem to enjoy. I enjoy open sights and lever actions.

After a bit of reading online, plus talking with people at the range, I now know what I need to do, which is try the XTP 125gr. That's what the best lever action shooters at my range use.

The .357 mag lever action with factory buckhorn sights, tube mag, and straight grip stock is my one and only rifle I shoot with. That's it. I'm too busy with other things in my life to get into other rifles and rounds. It's what I want to be a good shot with.

[bladeracer]

Interesting, I haven't heard of this disciple before. So it shoots offhand as well as "against a post"? I like the post support idea, good practical skill to practice.

Do other people choose to stick with the buckhorn styles or use rifles with notch/blade sights?

What size is the bull you're trying to fit all your bullets into?

When I'm developing loads and testing ammo I also shoot from a bench so I can get a baseline of what the rifle is capable of without my interference.

I did manage to get a practice in late this arvo near dusk. Very gusty but I was shooting okayish, until the last 15rd string on the ram at 100m with 12 hits out of 15rds. That's with the Henry H001 .22LR. I did two 15rd mags on each of the four targets (120rds), then did two 15rd mags on the chicken from 50m with the Ruger Precision with the M16 sights just to confirm zero on the irons.

The .22LR just allows you do a lot more practicing for less money, but there's no reason you can't shoot several hundred rounds a week with .357Mag if you can afford to. A 150rd session just cost me less than $20 so I can afford to do that every day. The XTP's nowadays are about 50c apiece, that's getting expensive if you want to put a lot of practice in. Is anybody getting success with cast bullets in this discipline?

I shoot in the "Classic" lever action competitions that SSAA ranges do, at least in Qld. I'm not sure if they do the same competitions in other states. The rules for this are you have to use the factory open sights and the calibers that were introduced before 1935. So, I can't use a Williams peep sight, even if I wanted to.

It's paper targets, at 100m, 50, and 25m. The reason I go on about small, accurate groups with a lever action is because you can only get the best scores in these competitions with the smallest groups that are closest to the centre of the bullseye. I try to get my groups as small as I can with a Caldwell benchrest (just the simplest version). I first need to figure out just how to get the smallest groups regarding loads, and sight picture etc (it sometimes takes a long time to figure this out with open iron sights and a new rifle). I'm pretty new to shooting actually, other than a small amount as a kid, and then briefly as a teenager.

Having figured all this out, I next need to improve my off hand shooting and resting the rifle against a post, which is what the Classic competition requires.

I'm not interested in flat-shooting bolt action rifles with a scope or peep sight like most shooters seem to enjoy. I enjoy open sights and lever actions.

After a bit of reading online, plus talking with people at the range, I now know what I need to do, which is try the XTP 125gr. That's what the best lever action shooters at my range use.

The .357 mag lever action with factory buckhorn sights, tube mag, and straight grip stock is my one and only rifle I shoot with. That's it. I'm too busy with other things in my life to get into other rifles and rounds. It's what I want to be a good shot with.

[No1_49er]

Interesting, I haven't heard of this disciple before. So it shoots offhand as well as "against a post"? I like the post support idea, good practical skill to practice.
Do other people choose to stick with the buckhorn styles or use rifles with notch/blade sights?
What size is the bull you're trying to fit all your bullets into?

Do not confuse SSAA Lever Action with SSAA Rifle Silhouette for which there are specific Lever Action rules.

Go here https://www.ssaa.org.au/disciplines/all ... er-action/ and in the "Downloads" section you will find the rule book, which refers to a multitude of animal (printed) targets.

There is also a 'Queensland Lever Action Handbook' which is in essence a supplemental to the National book.

[in2anity]

Ahh yes I know that comp. I've done that before, many years ago, at Silverdale SSAA. A guy used to run it after SSAA RMS, in the arvo, on the last Sunday of each month (heck maybe he still does it). Some stages are standing, some sitting against post etc etc, at varying distances / target faces, furthermost out to 100m. Good wholesome fun.

I used a pretty average Winchester 32-20 slinging lead; nice long sight radius and nice picture, so the standing offhand stages weren't a bother. Mechanics like a dream. But the guy who ran it used a seemingly accurized Marlin 30-30, and his 100m groups were always miles ahead of everyone else (the rest of us were generally on the smaller, inferior straightwalls).

Honestly, if you want to improve/win, you have to take all measures possible. In target shooting it's all the little things, that add up to yield the required, perfect outcome. Accuracy is king. So YES, indeed you somehow need to get your 357 grouping into a small cluster at 100m. Either that or make it easier on yourself by getting a proper rifle caliber like the 30-30.

[bladeracer]

Do not confuse SSAA Lever Action with SSAA Rifle Silhouette for which there are specific Lever Action rules.

Go here https://www.ssaa.org.au/disciplines/all ... er-action/ and in the "Downloads" section you will find the rule book, which refers to a multitude of animal (printed) targets.

There is also a 'Queensland Lever Action Handbook' which is in essence a supplemental to the National book.

No, no confusion, I know about Lever-Action Silhouette, just hadn't heard of this paper-punching with levers before.
I've had a read of the rulebooks. Allowed firearms and chamberings is consistent with the national manual. Classic is open to "any lever-action with a two-piece stock", open sights only. There is a note allowing a "pre 1866 without a two-piece stock", I can't think what rifle that would refer to though. Cartridges up to 1938 are allowed as well as some modern exceptions - .30-30Win looks like the cartridge of choice I think, except perhaps for the rapid course of fire.

"Any field position" allows post support.

Course of fire is 40rds and looks like fun, pretty much Silhouette without steel. I'd love to see some scores from these courses.
5rds in 5mins at 100m on a "small bear target".
5rds in 5mins at 100m on a 13M 50M slow fire pistol target - can't find this one so no idea of ring sizes.
5rds offhand in 5mins at 50m on a fox head target.
5rds offhand in 5 minutes at 50m on a 100 yard Centrefire Field Rifle Target - can't find this one either.
5rds offhand on each of four "animal targets". Distances vary, as does the club's choice of which targets to use so I have no idea about these. I'm guessing they would be at either 50m or 100m? Three of these "animals" are shot in 5mins (doesn't say whether offhand or "field position"), but the fourth is shot five times offhand in 15secs - awesome

I found targets from https://www.acsswan.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/ACS-Target-Catalogue-2021-email.pdf which might be what they refer to - I didn't find the 13M slow fire pistol target or the centrefire field rifle target.

Screenshot 2024-05-14 151255.jpg (48.91 KiB) Viewed 294 times

If this is the "small bear" then it's 250mm wide, and scaling it makes the 10X an oval 25mm wide and 140mm tall, as well as another 10X circle about 40mm diameter. So you would indeed want a sub-MoA rifle to put them all into the oval, or about 1.3MoA to go for the larger circle, that's tough for a lever I think. The two ten-zones though are about 65mm circles which seems challenging but achievable.

Screenshot 2024-05-14 152054.jpg (64.16 KiB) Viewed 294 times

If this is the "fox head" then the X is about 30mm diameter and the 10-zone about 60mm wide, similarly challenging offhand at half the distance.

I'm just getting geared up to start practicing the Cabin Fever Challenge again so I might have to print some of these off as well. When I practiced it last year with the Henry .22LR I was right around 15 seconds for the five rounds offhand at the 100mm dot at 50m, but that's timed from the first shot. If I have to react to a signal and take a sight picture first I'll have to speed it up very significantly.

[Obie73]

Yep, that's the one. It is a lot of fun, and quite challenging. It's not easy to get good groups in these competitions. I know those targets well. In the Classic competition most of the competitors seem to be using pistol calibres, mostly.357 mag or .44 mag, with a few 44-40s and 32-20s also and probably some 45LCs. The 30-30 isn't used much at our range for the Classic competition which suits me fine as I prefer a pistol calibre lever action, but you can certainly use a 30-30 if you want and would no doubt be at an advantage if you did. But I will stick with the .357. I have a Henry 30-30 but want to sell it or trade it in and get a 24" Miroku Winchester or Uberti 73 in .357 mag.

There is also the Open competition, where any kind of aperture sight can be used, plus the flatter-shooting calibres such as .308 Win. 30-30s are also used a bit more often for the Open comp. For this competition some use the BLR and similar style lever actions. No scopes are allowed.

[Obie73]

"pre 1866 without a two-piece stock" would refer to a Henry repeating rifle modern reproduction I'd say. It just has the barrel and the tube magazine underneath but no forestock.

[bladeracer]

Yep, that's the one. It is a lot of fun, and quite challenging. It's not easy to get good groups in these competitions. I know those targets well. In the Classic competition most of the competitors seem to be using pistol calibres, mostly.357 mag or .44 mag, with a few 44-40s and 32-20s also and probably some 45LCs. The 30-30 isn't used much at our range for the Classic competition which suits me fine as I prefer a pistol calibre lever action, but you can certainly use a 30-30 if you want and would no doubt be at an advantage if you did. But I will stick with the .357. I have a Henry 30-30 but want to sell it or trade it in and get a 24" Miroku Winchester or Uberti 73 in .357 mag.

There is also the Open competition, where any kind of aperture sight can be used, plus the flatter-shooting calibres such as .308 Win. 30-30s are also used a bit more often for the Open comp. For this competition some use the BLR and similar style lever actions. No scopes are allowed.

I'll print some targets and have a play with it while I'm practicing the Cabin Fever. If I get a kick out of it I'll load up some ammo and have a play with the centrefires as well. But none of my levers will come close to 1MoA at 100m, not even at 50m. My .38 Uberti and .357 Rossi are 24" which has got to be helpful for the sight radius. The .44 Marlin and .30-30 Winchester are both 20". Pretty sure I have .38 Special loaded in bulk, and mostly with cast bullets. Got quite a bit of subsonic .30-30 loaded though, that should be nice.

The only difference in the course of fire for the Open competition is that the first four are all shot on the 50m Slow Fire Pistol target, and the offhand round only scores down to the 7 ring - as I haven't seen the target I'm not sure what that means size-wise. And the rapid target in the final course of fire is shot in 10 seconds, that sounds bloody tough. What distance are you normally shooting that rapid round at?

[bladeracer]

"pre 1866 without a two-piece stock" would refer to a Henry repeating rifle modern reproduction I'd say. It just has the barrel and the tube magazine underneath but no forestock.

Good point, I forgot about the Henry not having a forend.

[in2anity]

Obie the 24" sight radius will help you I reckon. I would imagine part of the accuracy loss is due to a worse sight picture of the 100m face vs the 50m face . 6 o'clock hold is par for the course in service rifle, furthermore you can do tricks like paint the sights to help improve consistency. Take for example a No1 sight from my highly competative service rifler friend/mentor:

Painted No1 sights

441995864_422237710606536_5338887488679299866_n.jpg (64.35 KiB) Viewed 242 times

Sight radius is CRUCIAL to consistency, if you are chasing groups. The best scores I have ever achieved (in blade-sights competition) shooting have been on the m1917 and pattern1914 - both of which are longer than most service rifles - 25-26" barrels.

Levers are no exceptions. Longer radius - crisper/smaller the front sight. It's precisely why I purchased the marlin XLR 30-30; it sports a 24" barrel which is a bit unusual in this age of scopes. See me shooting it here:

https://youtube.com/shorts/whZX_48G4dM? ... EC9XVQ0LUw

With your .357, indeed probably velocity will help you. Go lighter and hotter!

[bladeracer]

LERAA doesn't allow painting the sights, though _I think_ you're allowed to blacken them, I'd have to check that.
Those two milsurps both have aperture sights don't they? That would be a huge advantage over open sights.

I would agree, the longest possible barrel would be of benefit, both in sight radius and velocity. Not sure whether the 110's would be better than the 125's. I'd have to look at the lighter .357" bullets and run some numbers to see if one of them has an advantage over the others. But I think the very poor BC numbers of most pistol bullets dictates that you want the bullet in flight for the shortest possible time, so high velocity would be essential I think. The 90gn XTP you might be able to push over 2500fps perhaps, but the BC is almost as low as round ball. You need to find the balance point between BC and velocity, which I suspect will be around the 125gn region.

Obie the 24" sight radius will help you I reckon. I would imagine part of the accuracy loss is due to a worse sight picture of the 100m picture vs the 50m picture . 6 o'clock hold is par for the course in service rifle, furthermore you can do tricks like paint the sights to help improve consistency. Take for example a No1 sight from my highly competitive service-rifler friend/mentor:

441995864_422237710606536_5338887488679299866_n.jpg

Sight radius is CRUCIAL to consistency, if you are chasing groups. The best scores I have ever achieved (in blade-sights competition) shooting have been on the m1917 and pattern1914 - both of which are longer than most service rifles - 25-26" barrels.

Even on levers, the same rule applies. It's precisely why I purchased the marlin XLR 30-30; it sports a 24" barrel which is a bit unusual in this age of scopes. See me shooting it here:

https://youtube.com/shorts/whZX_48G4dM? ... EC9XVQ0LUw

With your .357, indeed probably velocity will help you. Go lighter and hotter!

[in2anity]

LERAA doesn't allow painting the sights, though _I think_ you're allowed to blacken them, I'd have to check that.
Those two milsurps both have aperture sights don't they? That would be a huge advantage over open sights.

When were we talking about LERAA?

[Obie73]

The rapid fire in the final round of the comp is at 25m.

Thanks guys for your helpful advice. Very interesting. Will let you know how I get on with the new load. Still actually deciding whether to go with 125 gr or just try a slightly stouter loud with 140 gr projectile. Read a very interesting thread recently where someone in the US tried a lot of different .357 loads in his lever action rifle and got his most accurate results when approaching mid-strength loads: "The XTP/H110 groups improved to under ¾” as I approached midrange. That's at 50 yards, iron sights too I think but I'd have to read it all again. Not bad at all. Here's the thread:
https://www.marlinowners.com/threads/mo ... ry.136385/
My current load is a starting load according to Nick Harvey's book.

Also, check the groups this guy gets at 100 yards. Lots of chatter at the start so cut to the chase towards the end of the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiC32voJd4s
Bit of a character this guy. With a scope, yes, but gives an idea of what's possible from the rifle itself.
He gets best results with 140 gr with apparently what seems to be a hot load. Maybe too hot for an 1873, but a Henry can take it by the look of it.

Is W296 pretty close to H110 which again is 'pretty close' to 2207 in terms of powder equivalence??
I also read recently that Americans say W296 and H110 give best results towards the maximum load end of the scale. Don't know if this includes accuracy generally. I'm not endorsing it .... just passing on what others have said online. I know very little so don't listen to me regarding loads.

Will check out videos above later on. Got to get back to work.

[Obie73]

"pre 1866 without a two-piece stock" would refer to a Henry repeating rifle modern reproduction I'd say. It just has the barrel and the tube magazine underneath but no forestock.

... as featured in the movie 'Dances with Wolves', in the hands of Kevin Costner.

[in2anity]

Big fan of Johnny's. He's very pragmatic. Shame he seems to have lost interest, but it happens when there's absolutely zero return to be made for your time. I know the feeling.

[bladeracer]

I was pretty frozen the other morning so sat in front of the fire to thaw out. I ran some numbers with Hornady bullets from 90gn to 200gn, but taking velocities from ADI's data (ballpark only).

The sweetspot is in the 125gn to 140gn range, but between the two there is very little difference ballistically. The lighter bullet has lower BC but travels a little faster, by 100m there's bugger all difference between them. What really matters is finding a bullet that groups well for you. So I would play with bullets in the 120gn to 140gn region until you find what shoots best.

You get up into the 200gn range and you have excellent BC but are probably subsonic out of a toggle-locked action so the flight time is doubled.

For the 25m rapid I would look at loading something very light to minimise recoil, around Cowboy levels, maybe 110gn XTP's subsonic.

The rapid fire in the final round of the comp is at 25m.

Thanks guys for your helpful advice. Very interesting. Will let you know how I get on with the new load. Still actually deciding whether to go with 125 gr or just try a slightly stouter loud with 140 gr projectile. Read a very interesting thread recently where someone in the US tried a lot of different .357 loads in his lever action rifle and got his most accurate results when approaching mid-strength loads: "The XTP/H110 groups improved to under ¾” as I approached midrange. That's at 50 yards, iron sights too I think but I'd have to read it all again. Not bad at all. Here's the thread:
https://www.marlinowners.com/threads/mo ... ry.136385/
My current load is a starting load according to Nick Harvey's book.

Also, check the groups this guy gets at 100 yards. Lots of chatter at the start so cut to the chase towards the end of the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiC32voJd4s
Bit of a character this guy. With a scope, yes, but gives an idea of what's possible from the rifle itself.
He gets best results with 140 gr with apparently what seems to be a hot load. Maybe too hot for an 1873, but a Henry can take it by the look of it.

Is W296 pretty close to H110 which again is 'pretty close' to 2207 in terms of powder equivalence??
I also read recently that Americans say W296 and H110 give best results towards the maximum load end of the scale. Don't know if this includes accuracy generally. I'm not endorsing it .... just passing on what others have said online. I know very little so don't listen to me regarding loads.

Will check out videos above later on. Got to get back to work.

[jpsauer88]

H110 and W296 are not close enough to H4198/AR2205 (the slowest 357 powder). The max powder charge on 2205 is usually almost a full case.

What your experiencing is the same thing i experience with low charges of slow for caliber powder. This is due to inconsistent burn, the powder does not burn consistently due to insufficient pressure leading to erratic results.

I found moving to a heavier projectile usually solves the issue. If you want to use AR2207 (no data available) you should be using (to the best of my knowledge) the heaviest projectile possible (180g xtp?). I know my best accuracy when using very slow for calibre bullets was with the heaviest as the pressure of pushing the heavier bullet helps maintain a more complete powder burn. I find this to be true with my experience. However, load data also suggests this as you move up in weight, recommended powders get slower as pressure spikes quicker.

I have contacted ADI for powder data or recommendations for 2207 for 357mag due to no pistol powder available. They replied with words to effect of: no data available it is too slow and will result in alot of unburnt powder if used.

Have you considered a 375WIN or a 38-55, that way you could use rifle powder?

Il just throw in some numbers from GordonsreloadingTool - it is just software calculations and is ONLY A GUIDE (H4198/AR2207). Shows similar pressure and burn rate at 100% capacity.

110 XTP H4198 - 18.70g, 100% fill, 19,825PSI, 57% burn rate
140 XTP H4198 - 16.60g, 100% fill, 21,354PSI, 60% burn rate
180 XTP H4198 - 12.50g, 100% fill, 20,300PSI, 61% burn rate

Again, like Quickload, this software has been very close in some instances, SIGNIFICANTLY OFF in others.

I take no responsiblity for the above, it is simple calculations in Gordons Reloading Tool - ADI's advice was the powder is too slow.