Load not right for .357 lever action?

[Obie73]

Looks like the 30-30 might be the way to go until faster powders become available. I assume the 30-30 would work better with 2207. Also, I could try some factory made .357-- it's probably got fast powder in it. When I'm at the range yes there's always a little bit of unburned powder with the .357. It's possible that a 24" barrel along with heavier bullets might also improve the burn rate a bit.

[jpsauer88]

Generally with slow powder for calibre, its 100% fill load that gets the best.
Yea a 3030 might be the way to go.
I own a 444 marlin, 2207 is excellent in it, but use full case of 2206H (50g)for heavier projectiles with best accuracy.
I wanted to try 357 with 2207 but needs a rifle, i was goig to work up to a full case of 2207 to see if it was doable. But got the 444 rifle inatead and 357 only used in my smith and wesson

[bladeracer]

Looks like the 30-30 might be the way to go until faster powders become available. I assume the 30-30 would work better with 2207. Also, I could try some factory made .357-- it's probably got fast powder in it. When I'm at the range yes there's always a little bit of unburned powder with the .357. It's possible that a 24" barrel along with heavier bullets might also improve the burn rate a bit.

I prefer AR2206H.
Looking at ADI's data for the .30-30, AR2206H makes about 200fps more than AR2207 at similar pressures, but you do use 50% more of it.
Try Berry's 150gn Copper-Plated bullets in the .30-30, cheap and shoot very well for me.

Screenshot 2024-05-19 091814.jpg (51.95 KiB) Viewed 1221 times

I would definitely look for at least a 24" barrel for this game. Rossi do a 24" .357 1892, and only $1000 at Cleaver.

I don't know who's making a 24" .30-30 though. Cleaver have a new 24" Win94 listed for $3600.
Cimarron do a 26" https://www.cimarron-firearms.com/1894-rifle-26-30-30.html Whether you could actually get one here though I don't know.

[in2anity]

21gr 07 under that Berry’s 150gr plated bullet is a fine 30/30 100m target load. Very mild recoil and doesn’t generate near the heat a hunting load does. Accurate too - easy 3” long string groups at 100m, possibly better depending on your bedding arrangement

[Obie73]

Yep, looks like I'm keeping the 30-30, at least for now. One of these days I might get a 24" barrel. Thanks for the reloading advice!

[in2anity]

Either 07 or 06H for milder target loads in the 30/30, which suits current powder market.

[MrCarbine]

It sounds like a shooter problem not a load problem.
Mistakes we make such as sight picture and trigger control are magnified at the longer distance.
Concentrate on sight alignment and trigger control, it will take some time. Trust me. (assume you are using iron sights).

[Obie73]

I went out to the range yesterday to try a new mid-strength load in my 357. Up to now I'd been using more like a starting load (going by the published data for 2205, but I'm using 2207). Targets were at 100m. Simple bench rest. Rifle is a 20" barrel Winchester '73.

My best group, center to center measurement, was 2.9" (5 consecutive shot group). Average 5-shot group size was about 4". The average is a guess. This was using factory buckhorn rear sight and brass bead foresight.

[Obie73]

"Mistakes we make such as sight picture and trigger control are magnified at the longer distance.
Concentrate on sight alignment and trigger control, it will take some time. Trust me. (assume you are using iron sights)."

I agree.

Yes, open iron sights.

[Obie73]

Less unburned powder with the new load, too.

[in2anity]

It doesn't apply to benchrest shooting (I have NFI how best to do that), but once you adopt the proper field positions, you'll need to follow a strict cycle. Never stare at the target; no more than a 4 second hold. You should be smoothly coming on to the target, arresting the movement, then promptly pressing the shot off by uniformly squeezing the trigger straight back, then following through for optimally 3 seconds. Rythm and routine is everything. Read about flow state by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi.

The best shooters take almost exactly the same amount of time for every shot, and they are utterly robotic in their cycle. Dryfire practise helps emphasise this. Dryfire practice six days a week, and you'll probs win your local comps in no time at all.

When it comes to stance; the best shooters tend toward the olympic stance, with the hip popped out, and the elbow tucked into the chest. Read my description in this video: https://youtu.be/b-eynCdJHZE

Don't worry about the sling - from the offhand position, its doing less stabilising than you might think. Arguably it adss no stability at all. The sling jsut comes into its own from the prone and sitting positions. Put it this way - learn and watch how the high power silhoutter shooters do their thang. Copy that.

[Oldbloke]

Looks like the 30-30 might be the way to go until faster powders become available. I assume the 30-30 would work better with 2207. Also, I could try some factory made .357-- it's probably got fast powder in it. When I'm at the range yes there's always a little bit of unburned powder with the .357. It's possible that a 24" barrel along with heavier bullets might also improve the burn rate a bit.

I prefer AR2206H.
Looking at ADI's data for the .30-30, AR2206H makes about 200fps more than AR2207 at similar pressures, but you do use 50% more of it.
Try Berry's 150gn Copper-Plated bullets in the .30-30, cheap and shoot very well for me.

Screenshot 2024-05-19 091814.jpg

I would definitely look for at least a 24" barrel for this game. Rossi do a 24" .357 1892, and only $1000 at Cleaver.

I don't know who's making a 24" .30-30 though. Cleaver have a new 24" Win94 listed for $3600.
Cimarron do a 26" https://www.cimarron-firearms.com/1894-rifle-26-30-30.html Whether you could actually get one here though I don't know.

That's just crazy.
My mate bought one in about 1979.
It was the cheapest centrefire you could buy new. $115. Sloppy action, crap accuracy but light weight.

Same week my 30.30 marlin cost $135.

It's all marketing.
You could buy a nice BA 308 ATM FOR $1000 or less.

[bladeracer]

That's just crazy.
My mate bought one in about 1979.
It was the cheapest centrefire you could buy new. $115. Sloppy action, crap accuracy but light weight.

Same week my 30.30 marlin cost $135.

It's all marketing.
You could buy a nice BA 308 ATM FOR $1000 or less.

I think the 24" barrel makes it a bit rare, but that is steep for a Winchester I reckon. My 1981 Model 94 .30-30 is pretty loose and has clearly worked hard. It's browned rather than blued but it still shoots very well. Only glitch with it is that the front sight is not cut in the top of the barrel so it leans to the right. A dealer suggested that perhaps it was a longer barrel that somebody shortened and cut a new front sight dovetail out of level. Personally it looks to me like it was just cut badly from original. I picked it up for $500 from a local deer hunter with the Lyman aperture sight and a pile of brass, bullets and ammo so no complaints from me.

[mickb]

I didnt read the whole thread, got a headache this evening, but saw a coupe of points needing addressing,. Firstly Im assuming someone has pointed out AR2207 is a vastly too slow powder in 357.

I can understand using it in a pinch, aka no magnum pistol powders around, but that load is going to be running very low power, maybe only couple hundred fps above subsonic. No way anywhere near 2000fps with 140xtp, I would not be surpised if its 700-800fps slower than that.

As to accuracy Id say the slow powder, lighter bulets, very large bullet drop once you get to 100 yards and the fact the bullet is going transonic, dropping through the sound barrier to subsonic may all be playing a part in innaccurary.

Also a comment about a 357 being a more powerful 22LR for trajectory, no way, 357 far exceeds 22LR for flat shootingness, it beats 22Win mag as well with the right bullets. Not sure the OP realises while pistol loads run 1200-1600fps from a pistol barrel , they can run 500fps or more in the lever action. Again, the load of AR2207 is nowhere in this ballpark, in fact I reckon even out of the rifle barrel its still running slower than a short barelled pistol.

Also regards the 73 action, yes inherenrly much weaker design than the 92 and 94 etc....however, if winchester has seen fit to chamber one in 357( as uberti does as well) you have to assume it can handle factory 357 pressures.

I did some internet armchair research at one stage regards modern73 actions being used for magnum pistol chambering and didnt find any examples of rifles blowing up. What I did find reports of is after large QTY's of full house loads the headpace can increase over time necessitating gunsmith action, as the thrust is all agains the radius of those little toggle pins. That said , a lot of blokes are using 44mag and 357 in their ubertis and winchester 73's without even knowing what headpace is...

[bladeracer]

I didnt read the whole thread, got a headache this evening, but saw a coupe of points needing addressing,. Firstly Im assuming someone has pointed out AR2207 is a vastly too slow powder in 357.

I can understand using it in a pinch, aka no magnum pistol powders around, but that load is going to be running very low power, maybe only couple hundred fps above subsonic. No way anywhere near 2000fps with 140xtp, I would not be surpised if its 700-800fps slower than that.

As to accuracy Id say the slow powder, lighter bulets, very large bullet drop once you get to 100 yards and the fact the bullet is going transonic, dropping through the sound barrier to subsonic may all be playing a part in innaccurary.

Also a comment about a 357 being a more powerful 22LR for trajectory, no way, 357 far exceeds 22LR for flat shootingness, it beats 22Win mag as well with the right bullets. Not sure the OP realises while pistol loads run 1200-1600fps from a pistol barrel , they can run 500fps or more in the lever action. Again, the load of AR2207 is nowhere in this ballpark, in fact I reckon even out of the rifle barrel its still running slower than a short barelled pistol.

Also regards the 73 action, yes inherently much weaker design than the 92 and 94 etc....however, if winchester has seen fit to chamber one in 357( as uberti does as well) you have to assume it can handle factory 357 pressures.

I did some internet armchair research at one stage regards modern73 actions being used for magnum pistol chambering and didnt find any examples of rifles blowing up. What I did find reports of is after large QTY's of full house loads the headpace can increase over time necessitating gunsmith action, as the thrust is all agains the radius of those little toggle pins. That said , a lot of blokes are using 44mag and 357 in their ubertis and winchester 73's without even knowing what headpace is...

I wouldn't say AR2207 (H4198) is "vastly" too slow, particularly in rifle barrels. It's less than optimal, but it's what we have to work with. If I didn't have pistol powders I'd be getting my name on a list for some of this APS950 ASAP. I do agree that 2000fps is unlikely with 140gn bullets using AR2207, but I think they can certainly be pushed a lot faster than 1300fps, and certainly a lot faster than out of pistol barrels (they have so much more barrel volume to burn the powder in).

The 140gn XTP has a BC of .169. If it were only making 1300fps it would indeed have a fairly similar curve to .22LR. If it's making a more realistic 1500fps then it is flatter than .22LR, and still supersonic to around 125m. The OP is using 16.2gn (compared to QL's 14.7gn max in the data below) so I would figure it's a fairly stout load (we don't know his COAL). Without a chronograph, and with a degree of accuracy from the rifle you can shoot groups at 50m and 100m and measure the drop to get a decent idea of your velocity. If it drops 170mm going from 50m out to 100m then it's doing around 1300fps, 125mm drop would be around 1500fps, 90mm drop would be around 1700fps, 70mm drop would be around 1900fps. You need either very tight groups, or lots of shots to accurately measure your drop. Measure vertically to a fixed horizontal datum on the target (like the top of the page or rule a level line) for each bullet hole, then average them to get an accurate idea of your drop. Exclude any shots that you know where badly aimed though.

I Googled 4198 .357 loads and there are lots of people that have experimented with it for years, long before supply was an issue. It's a better choice when running heavier bullets, 158gn to 200gn, and longer barrels, but also works with lighter bullets and very short barrels. I found two people that had posted Quickload results for 1.590", 158gn, 4.8" pistol and 1.900", 180gn, 22" rifle loads. The pistol data is 11 years old, the rifle data was run last year. In both situations Lilgun gave the highest velocity, 1292fps in the pistol (30,625psi with 78% burn), 1703fps in the rifle (30,625psi with 97% burn). For pistol, Quickload placed IMR4198 in twentieth place (in the list of powders sorted by calculated velocity). For rifle, it placed H4198 33rd (later data so a wider choice of powders in QL's database I think). In the pistol, AR2207 (IMR/H4198) only made 25,221psi and 1073fps (83% of the Lilgun velocity with 49% burn), in the rifle AR2207 made 25,312psi and 1394fps (82% of the Lilgun velocity with 67% burn). So, less than optimal but definitely usable, and pretty safe too. But I would strongly suggest actually chronographing your loads if you want reliable data. The QL data didn't say whether magnum primers were used but I would assume not as it included all the pistol powders as well, mag primers would very likely improve the burn ratio.

Pistol:
https://forum.nosler.com/threads/357-mag-loads-starting-point.24409/post-239625

Rifle:
https://www.go2gbo.com/threads/357-mag-load-with-imr-4198.129295/

[mickb]

Hi mate, I'll add context 2207 is 'vastly too slow' in respect to factory or full house loads, being it will only achieve 50-60% kinetic energy of magnum pistol powers. Certainly 2207 is still a killing load, I dont want to get with anything in 357 even at 38 special speeds.

Re The 32KPSi load for lilgun, use it at its 42kpsi rating( or Win 296, 300-MP, N110 type powders) and naturally the numbers open way up. It will go 1800fps+. which almost doubles the power of 2207( 700ftlbs versus 1300ftlbs), though Im not sure I would feed a constant diet of that through a modern 73

[wrenchman]

I run a henry chambered in 357 if you look at my past posts I shoot a Ruger gp100 and a Henry chambered for the 357 you can really load the 357 up for the rifle I am pushing 3030 numbers with the 357 the thing that seems to make it hard is caliber restriction for you guys.
I use my guns for when I am working around on the property I have a lot of yotes and any time I might get a chance at one i take it.
you can do a lot with the 357 and if you have a revolver you can expand a lot on it when hand loading.

[bladeracer]

I run a henry chambered in 357 if you look at my past posts I shoot a Ruger gp100 and a Henry chambered for the 357 you can really load the 357 up for the rifle I am pushing 3030 numbers with the 357 the thing that seems to make it hard is caliber restriction for you guys.
I use my guns for when I am working around on the property I have a lot of yotes and any time I might get a chance at one i take it.
you can do a lot with the 357 and if you have a revolver you can expand a lot on it when hand loading.

Caliber restriction? I'm not aware of any such calibre restriction here regarding .357Mag.

We use .357Mag and .44Mag rifles here, and if we had access to pistol powders we could push them hard as well. Trying to do it with the fastest rifle powders is the only issue.

Yep, can't carry sidearms here, which would certainly be handy on the farms.

[mickb]

Hi wrenchman, as blade says no calibre restrictions, we can own anything up to 700 nitro, or even 50BMG in some states. We do have action type restrictions( semi's and pump shotguns) and no hunting with handguns no.

[Obie73]

Regarding 2207 in a .357 rifle, Nick's book lists it as a recommended powder with the 180 gr projectile. I might try that out a bit later down the track.

Remember my crack shot brother-in-law I mentioned in other threads? The latest is that he's going to buy my Henry 30-30 and I'm going to stick with .357 and this time get the 24" barrel model 73. That extra barrel length will help with accuracy due to the sighting radius, plus the extra 4 inches will help burn a bit more of that slower 2207. Especially with the heavier projectiles, 158gr and 180gr, that should be a formula for success. Then, eventually, one day if we're lucky the faster burning powders will become available in Australia again .... and I will still have my 20" barrel 73.

[mickb]

hi mate, Single action shooters in Noosa is currently selling Vihta Magnum pistol powders. Not cheap, about $180/.lb but that's no worse than Cleavers was charging for new Alliant (and a lot better than some gougers!)

The N110 is a great powder, more horsepower than alliant 2400 and Ar2205, not far off Lilgun and Win-296. N120 is good too, actually a fast rifle powder, probably more like Ar2205 but Ive never used it.

[wrenchman]

I was talking about caliber size for the animals I don't know if you would be allowed to shoot deer with it.
I am using h110 and blue dot the blue dot get used a lot for shot gun loading

[bladeracer]

I was talking about caliber size for the animals I don't know if you would be allowed to shoot deer with it.
I am using h110 and blue dot the blue dot get used a lot for shot gun loading

Oh, that's really only a Victorian thing, and only applies to deer (we can't use bullets smaller in diameter than .243"/85gn). Tassie has something similar. The only animal that has caliber restrictions nationwide is kangaroo. .357Mag is probably legal for these as well, but as they require head shots, not many .357Mag rifles have the capability to consistently manage that.

We can legally hunt most things, including Victorian deer, with .357Mag rifles, but it would be marginally effective on bigger beasts. I think US white-tail are similar in size to our fallow. I just Googled it and it seems white-tail are generally in the 100lb to 200lb realm and two-feet to four-feet at the shoulder, that's pretty much on-par with our fallow. The sambar and red are much, much larger though, four to five feet at the shoulder and 250lb to 750lb - that's a big ask of the .357Mag.

Yep, the only pistol/shotshell powders available here are Lovex, Vihtavouri, or Vectan that has been imported in small lots, and is horrendously expensive, around US$200per kilo. https://downrange.com.au/product/vectan-powder-sp10-500gm/ Sensible pistol shooters are using factory ammo or scavenging powder from shotshells. Shotgun shooters are almost all using factory ammo nowadays.

[mickb]

As bladeracer says no cal restrictions most states. deer species in the other Aus states are like most our game, non native vermin so can be shot 24/7 year round no bag limits with anything that works. 357 would be sub optimal on bigger dear. I know fellas who do shoot chital or as it's also known axis deer with 357