Scope advice for .223 at 200m distances

[Wapiti]

If you are getting another scope consider getting, whatever, but with a 50mm objective. The square mm area of a 50 mm lens is a lot more than a 40 mm. 50mm ? better light gathering.
cheers

I humbly don't agree mate.
For any use whatsoever, a 50mm objective requires you use higher rings, and therefore have to get or have a higher cheekpiece for instinctive shooting. Also, when prone, if targets are your choice, it's even more annoying.
And it makes your ability to find the target in instinctive shooting much slower.
The scope centre relationship with the bore center being higher, makes the height over bore higher, making your practical range variation above/below the crosshairs more. Meaning, for a given solid hold at a target at any given distance, the rise and fall of the shot will be greater. More misses, more wounding, unnecessary.

Also, in a good middle-quality scope, such as a VX3 Leupold, the difference in brightness and clarity is, although technically brighter (exit pupil will be bigger in mm, look it up), your eye cannot use or even see the difference between a 40mm and a 50mm scope. Even on dusk/dawn.
If a carry rifle, a 50mm scope is noticeably heavier, as is a 30mm tube.
I shoot just on dark/dawn and at night all the time and cannot see ANY positive difference in a 50mm lens, because my eye cannot physically use a bigger exit pupil i.e. utilise it.
If your favourite scope magnification or model comes in 50mm only, so be it. But the above negatives still apply.

Now, in cheaper Chinese scopes, like Vortex, you just might see a difference between 40 and 50mm. But NOT with good glass.
Example: I shoot a 1-8X x 24mm Swarovski Z8i scope more than any other scope in all light conditions and at all distances in the paddocks, and although it's only a 24mm lens and it's always usually set on 8x (so exit pupil is a small 3mm only)(24mm divided by 8), the difference in clarity and brightness to a VX3i 50mm is very obviously in favour of the Austrian glass.
If Leupold pulled their fingers out and made a 1-8x I'd have one, but they stupidly don't.

And, another fact, Vortex scopes (except for their top-end military models) are made in China, do not listen to anybody's advice on ANY other issue about firearms if they try and say they are remotely comparable to US made/assembled in brightness and quality. Sorry to anger anyone, but I can't stand advice to newby's that is incorrect, and when they look through a mates Leupold, realise the hard way.

[Larry]

Sorry mate but I wholeheartedly disagree On my target rifles most of my scopes are 56mm if not 50 and there are no issues at all and it doesnt take me any longer to obtain my target and good optical picture. Also from a target shooting position not putting your face over the stock like a lot of people do is a much better shooting position. I also prefer to have much higher magnification on all scopes than everyone here has mentioned. You cant aim small miss small if you cant see small.

[Wapiti]

Just stating the facts on the brightness myths.
My apologies for not really making the point that I'm not talking about rifle range and target use, where advantages are never noticed. You get used to something and adapt to it, but the disadvantages are never noticed until in the field.
I haven't even dwelled on the smaller field-of-view as you up magnification and objective sizes.
But you are right, you will not notice any difference in ease, speed of target acquisition etc if you don't absolutely compare apples with apples.
Unless you do, you won't know.
Definitely don't want to challenge any bodies knowledge or place on a forum.

Mates I invite out show up with all sorts of coke-bottle sized optics on firearms, and are appalled at how much easier it is to use smaller, more suited optics.

I get it that when people buy certain things, they used personal justification to decide on their purchase and will use it regardless to justify that decision later, even as they grow and learn.

Those who want to get some facts on scopes, maybe look at this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nki8j_CRe_0

Explains what I'm saying about bigger being less forgiving and therefore slower.
Believe me, if I thought bigger was better, in rifles we use where it's so important to be fast, with the result being years of breeding and tens of thous of $$$ lost, I would. At least, to my skill levels anyway.
These targets move and are there only momentarily. Anyway, no point in discussing further.

[bigrich]

vx3 with 40mm objective loopy's are my scope of choice . comp to 300 yards, or in the bush . my Favorite scope, though not a vx3 and not cheap , is my vx5 2-10 loopy . i find set on 2 power it's perfect for close in pig work, with the extra mag to reach out . the clarity is a little better than the vx3, but for what you pay the vx3 is good value . just put my vx5 3-15 scope up for sale as there's no advantage to running this particular bulkier, heavier vx5 over a vx3 4.5-14x40 vx3. and Leupold guarantee is worth the extra purchase price as second hand scopes can be sent of to NIOA through your gun shop for a free service/repair, and if they can't fix it , they replace it . you can't get better than that

[bladeracer]

The scope centre relationship with the bore center being higher, makes the height over bore higher, making your practical range variation above/below the crosshairs more. Meaning, for a given solid hold at a target at any given distance, the rise and fall of the shot will be greater. More misses, more wounding, unnecessary.

I disagree with this and some of my rifles have more than 80mm scope offset. It is a potential issue at very close ranges, say under 20m. For example, on the .22LR, one of the steepest trajectories most people are likely to work with:
An 80mm offset with a 50m zero puts the bullet 65mm low at 5m, 45mm low at 10m, and 17mm low at 20m. For head shots on small targets you _will_ need to allow for this. It zeroes around 30m and out to around 60m it varies up and down by about 10mm, 70m is 40mm low, 80m is 80mm low, 90m is 130mm low, 100m is 200mm low.
A 20mm offset for low iron sights with the same 50m zero puts it on zero at about 8m, 15m is 12mm high, 20m is 19mm high, 30m is 23mm high, 40m is 17mm high, 60m is 25mm low, 70m is 65mm low, 80m is 115mm low, 90m is 175mm low, and 100m is 250mm low.
Other than that sub-20m range the differences are insignificant, and the drop at longer distances is smaller with the taller scope mount. When I practice on the 100m ram silhouette with the scoped Ruger Precision and the iron-sight Henry I have to make allowance for that extra 50mm of bullet drop with the low sights of the Henry.

On a flat-shooting .223 with 80gn ELDM:
An 80mm offset with 200m zero: 25m is 38mm low, 50m is zeroed, 75m is 21mm high, 100m is 37mm high, 150m is 40mm high, 250m is 80mm low, 300m is 210mm low, 350m is 390mm low, 400m is 630mm low.
A 20mm offset with 200m zero: 25m is 14mm high, 50m is 40mm high, 75m is 60mm high, 100m is 65mm high, 150m is 55mm high, 250m is 95mm low, 300m is 240mm low, 350m is 440mm low, 400m is 690mm low.
Again, at very close range you need to allow for the bore being significantly below your line of sight, but for the rest of it, the higher offset reduces the bullet drop you need to allow for. There are very good reasons the militaries have used higher offset sights for the past 80 years. MDT took it to the extreme a couple years ago - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9lLlodVhrk

If you instead work on a MPBR zero, with let's say a 50mm kill zone diameter:
With a .22LR with 20mm offset the MPBR is from the muzzle out to 60m. With an 80mm offset the MPBR is from 14m out to 75m.
With the same .223 load above, a 20mm offset gives an MPBR out to 161m, an 80mm offset gives an MPBR from 36m out to 199m.
I much prefer a higher scope offset for field shooting and have never understood this myth that the scope must be mounted as low as possible. If it really were so important we would be side-mounting our scopes level with the bore axis, as the early sniper rifles attempted to do.

It's far more important to set up your rifle with a nice consistent cheek weld. Mount the scope wherever you want to but make the cheek weld fit you.

[Wapiti]

Hey, I really appreciate tge detailed replies.
Although that isn't anything that I find in the circumstances I'm trying to explain my findings on,
it's great that we can share differing experiences in a respectful way. People reading all these opinions can take it all in and make their own decisions what suits them.
It's pretty obvious that there are different uses, needs and advice.

Goodness knows, years ago I bought giant or unsuitable scopes for bush use (I'm only talking about bush use, or pretty much only control work) and still have them in their boxes, waiting to be donated to someone. All I'm doing is sharing what for me, are the best options when in all conditions. I've made some big gear mistakes, big scopes topping the list, along with incorrect ammo, inadequate calibres, bad brand choices, we're always learning.

I've got 15 and 22x Nightforce 56mm's, a 32x Nightforce ( which is the most ghastly over-rated scope to use in my collection, hate it) and 8-25x Mk4'S on a few long range guns that suit those things perfectly, when lying on a shooting mat, with no pressure. We have fun shoots where we put out balloons way out, they are good for that. Geeze, imagine how hopeless a 1-8x would be at 1100 yards at balloons stapled to a log. Yep,
Yes, definitely I agree on good face support, and absolutely, 80mm above bore is only a matter of a few scope clicks when you've got known ranges and dope.

But then, I pretty much explained I'm referring to targets that typify my circumstances daily, like shooting off a buggy, from a ute, or when jumping from it and taking a sprint, at critters that are in scrub one minute at 25 yards, or screaming across a hillside at 200. I'm sure people reading this can figure out what's definitely the scopes that are handicaps to success here. People can take that into account, or ignore it. I do what works best for me.

Again, great discussion.

[bladeracer]

Hey, I really appreciate the detailed replies.
Although that isn't anything that I find in the circumstances I'm trying to explain my findings on,
it's great that we can share differing experiences in a respectful way. People reading all these opinions can take it all in and make their own decisions what suits them.
It's pretty obvious that there are different uses, needs and advice.

Goodness knows, years ago I bought giant or unsuitable scopes for bush use (I'm only talking about bush use, or pretty much only control work) and still have them in their boxes, waiting to be donated to someone. All I'm doing is sharing what for me, are the best options when in all conditions. I've made some big gear mistakes, big scopes topping the list, along with incorrect ammo, inadequate calibres, bad brand choices, we're always learning.

I've got 15 and 22x Nightforce 56mm's, a 32x Nightforce ( which is the most ghastly over-rated scope to use in my collection, hate it) and 8-25x Mk4'S on a few long range guns that suit those things perfectly, when lying on a shooting mat, with no pressure. We have fun shoots where we put out balloons way out, they are good for that. Geeze, imagine how hopeless a 1-8x would be at 1100 yards at balloons stapled to a log. Yep,
Yes, definitely I agree on good face support, and absolutely, 80mm above bore is only a matter of a few scope clicks when you've got known ranges and dope.

But then, I pretty much explained I'm referring to targets that typify my circumstances daily, like shooting off a buggy, from a ute, or when jumping from it and taking a sprint, at critters that are in scrub one minute at 25 yards, or screaming across a hillside at 200. I'm sure people reading this can figure out what's definitely the scopes that are handicaps to success here. People can take that into account, or ignore it. I do what works best for me.

Again, great discussion.

Agreed about too much scope. A lot of magnification is great if you're shooting at paper trying to put your bullets through one hole to win a trophy. For the field though they're too large, too heavy, and you don't need or want all that magnification anyway. The highest mags I have are some 10-40x50mm and 10-40x56mm scopes, and I have some 6-24x50's, and I rarely use them. I might drag one out once every year or two for an ammo test but that's about it. 40-power is _really_ nice when shooting at paper at 50m or 100m, you can see your shots very clearly, and you can lay your crosshair along near invisible grid lines on paper with great precision. But that's about all it's good for, in my opinion. When I'm shooting long range with the .22LR (300m to 500m) I can hit the gongs just as easily with the scope wound back to 4.5-power as the full 18-power, it's not an issue as long as you can see the target (the Ruger American Target uses an adjustable base so I can hold dead-on at these distances, the Ruger Precision Rimfire doesn't so I have to wind the magnification right back to allow enough holdover on the reticle - it makes no difference to hitting the target). I ran the 10-40x50 on the .204 for a short period (with more than 90mm scope offset). For when you've reached the spot where you're going to lay and watch over some paddocks for foxes then it's pretty good, but it's a pain lugging it out there, and a real pain when you're walking out with the minimum 10-power when a fox jumps out 10m in front of you - I mounted 45-degree back-up iron sights after that happened.

For field work you only need enough magnification to be able to clearly make out your target, at the distances you shoot at. If you can see it clearly then you can aim at it accurately enough, more magnification won't change that.

[animalpest]

For field work you only need enough magnification to be able to clearly make out your target, at the distances you shoot at. If you can see it clearly then you can aim at it accurately enough, more magnification won't change that.

You need to be able to clearly see the vital hit zone on your target, not just the target itself

[deye243]

Advice is just advice you just have to suck it and see cheek weld is not the end all and be all.
And as for the 50mm comments what a load of clap trap and what works for one won't necessarily work for another plus sometimes in life you just have to be adaptable.
I have only had 3 scopes in my life that were 40mm or smaller and couldn't get rid of them quick enough if you are going to be hunting dusk or under a light at night even 50 is marginal with good glass I just wish these scope manufacturers who make these things would do a 70 to 75 mm objective but now that I've gone night vision I don't care.
But I would love a 16x70 scope for spotlighting .

[bladeracer]

For field work you only need enough magnification to be able to clearly make out your target, at the distances you shoot at. If you can see it clearly then you can aim at it accurately enough, more magnification won't change that.

You need to be able to clearly see the vital hit zone on your target, not just the target itself

Well, yes, that would be your "target", you're not going to be shooting somewhere within the outline of the animal...

[bladeracer]

Advice is just advice you just have to suck it and see cheek weld is not the end all and be all.
And as for the 50mm comments what a load of clap trap and what works for one won't necessarily work for another plus sometimes in life you just have to be adaptable.
I have only had 3 scopes in my life that were 40mm or smaller and couldn't get rid of them quick enough if you are going to be hunting dusk or under a light at night even 50 is marginal with good glass I just wish these scope manufacturers who make these things would do a 70 to 75 mm objective but now that I've gone night vision I don't care.
But I would love a 16x70 scope for spotlighting .

I consider spotlighting to be a whole different ballgame to hunting, and you would want optics specifically suited to that, which might not be optimal for daylight hunting.

[deye243]

Advice is just advice you just have to suck it and see cheek weld is not the end all and be all.
And as for the 50mm comments what a load of clap trap and what works for one won't necessarily work for another plus sometimes in life you just have to be adaptable.
I have only had 3 scopes in my life that were 40mm or smaller and couldn't get rid of them quick enough if you are going to be hunting dusk or under a light at night even 50 is marginal with good glass I just wish these scope manufacturers who make these things would do a 70 to 75 mm objective but now that I've gone night vision I don't care.
But I would love a 16x70 scope for spotlighting .

I consider spotlighting to be a whole different ballgame to hunting, and you would want optics specifically suited to that, which might not be optimal for daylight hunting.

Absolutely that's where a variable can be your friend although most of my shooting is not hunting it is spotlighting and the lack of decent fixed power scopes I tend to buy sizeable variables some I've had for more than 10 years and the power ring has never been adjusted from flat out my last hunting rifle was a 7mm Remington Magnum and it had a leupoldd vx2 4 to 12 by 50 and was perfect for shooting Sambar up here in East Gippsland from in the scrub to right across gullys at 300 odd yards away .

[SCJ429]

Hey, I really appreciate tge detailed replies.


I've got 15 and 22x Nightforce 56mm's, a 32x Nightforce ( which is the most ghastly over-rated scope to use in my collection, hate it) and 8-25x Mk4'S on a few long range guns that suit those things perfectly, when lying on a shooting mat, with no pressure. We have fun shoots where we put out balloons way out, they are good for that. Geeze, imagine how hopeless a 1-8x would be at 1100 yards at balloons stapled to a log. Yep,
Yes, definitely I agree on good face support, and absolutely, 80mm above bore is only a matter of a few scope clicks when you've got known ranges and dope.
.

Can I buy your ghastly over-rated 32x Nightforce? I know you hate it and don’t want much for it. Myself I have done alright with Nightforce BR and Competition scopes.