45/70 lever more accurate than 357 mag lever at 100 yards?

[Obie73]

In the recent Australian Shooter mag there is an article that states that the Henry 45/70 lever action rifle reviewed by the author fired an impressive off hand "tight group" at 100 yards. I'm not sure if the main photo of the article is the 100 yard group referred to in the article but it shows what looks to be a 5-shot group that must be in the ballpark of about a 1" group. If that's how that rifle shoots off-hand at 100 yards well then that is very impressive indeed.

This got me thinking.

I've read this before, that the 45/70 out of a Marlin lever action (or in this case a Henry, very similar to a Marlin lever action) is very accurate at 100 yards (or metres).

But if we're talking strictly 100 m range or less, is a 45/70 lever action rifle actually inherently more accurate than a .357 magnum lever action rifle? Does the greater powder and oomph behind the projectile of the 45/70 make it more accurate (ie, smaller groups) than a .357 mag rifle?

Would I get smaller groups shooting offhand at 100m with a 45/70 lever action compared to a 357 lever action? Before you ask, I'm not interested in a .308 BLR or a .30/30. Just specifically either a 45/70 or a .357 rifle.

The big appeal of the .357 mag rifle for me is the light recoil. The recoil of the 45/70 isn't something I'd look forward to. Plus the expense of the extra powder doesn't exactly appeal.

[womble]

I don’t think so.
It’s the projectiles.
You get pointy polymer tipped 45-70 now

There’s no comparison to be made 357 mag vs 45-70
I think you want a 44 magnum.

I love the 357 magnum. Never ceases to amaze me. But at 100 yards that romance is dead.

[Obie73]

Thanks Womble. Is your last comment there, about a lack of romance at 100 yards, because the .357 doesn't punch holes in pigs as well (or some other four legged beast)? I just want to punch holes in paper. You're not saying the .357 isn't as accurate as, say, a .44 mag at 100 yards?

[Mattraff]

I think the accuracy deficit with the 357 is probably more to do with the fact that the ammo available off the shelf is designed for pistol use more than rifle. You could reload the 357 to get much better results.
The 357 in a lever gun is never going to give great 100 yard groups on paper.
I own a Marlin 1874 in 357 and it is a great little rifle, mine is fitted with a Leupold freedom 1-4X20 with the pig plex reticle. My 12yo daughter loves using it and has fun hitting metal Dear target at the local range that is set at 200m.

[womble]

As Mattraff says I agree.
People have done well with reloading the 357 and getting better accuracy further out. Ruger makes a bolt action for it.
All fun and experiments if you wanted to.
But it’s not really the mainstay of the 357. Relatively cheap factory ammo in a handy lever with a generous capacity makes it a great little pig gun. In the right terrain and conditions.
You can get decent factory ammo nowadays. But who’s buying it. Kinda defeats the purpose.
Like people who run 223 all day. The cheap stuff does the job well enough anyway.

You have to consider the hold over at 100 yards, which again is fine when you’re used to it, even with decent open sites. Also an appeal of that set up really. You have a remarkably fast handling no nonsense carbine.and it’s a beautiful simplicity.

And 357 is brutal at close range. But it also looses energy fairly quickly. And when that drops off it’s not tapering off.
It’s kinda like a giant 22 I like to think.
You should definitely own a 357 lever gun. But it’s not always the best one to take out. It does have its limitations when you have other options that will shine where it won’t.

You should probably just buy both of them. 357 for fun and pest control pigs, goats. and 45-70 for safari. Bang for your buck 45-70 is a waste on ferals even if you reload. But when the shot matters on a larger beast with the right projectile 45-70 is smacking it pretty hard.
It might get up but it’s not going far. It just got hit by a bus. It’s got a pretty big leak in it and it’s sinking fast.
And the recoil on the 45-70 is not as bad as you anticipate. Because the cartridge in the your hand is terrifying. But it’s not that bad to shoot. So it’s not as bad as it looks. If that makes sense.
I’m scared of recoil and I will admit to it. I’m not trying to overcome it. I just know what guns I’m comfortable with. I can shoot 45-70. It’s not that bad. It definitely kicks but so long as you’re holding the gun properly like you would a shotgun,you can absorb it. Its fine.

[bigrich]

i've owned 357 levers, and some have been extremely accurate , the most accurate unscoped being rossi's . 44 mag hits considerably harder , but their not overly accurate compared to the 357 in my experience . 45-70's were used for competition back in the day out to very long range . whether or not it's worth shooting a 45-70 with it's recoil for target work over a 357 is a personal choice . if it's intended use is hunting the 45-70 has a big advantage in hitting power over a 357 . 444 marlin is a option too . just sayin'

decisions, decisions hey i had a 24" rossi octagonal barrel in 357 with modified iron sights that was ridiculously accurate . got rid of it cause it was a bit heavy for offhand shooting and 357 is range limited on game compared to a 308 bolt gun . JMHO , hope this helps . cheers

PS , i'm looking at 44 mag rossi's ATM , just because

[No1_49er]

The 357 in a lever gun is never going to give great 100 yard groups on paper.

That may be your experience, or opinion.
My M94 357Mag shoots one inch groups @ 100 mtr which is entirely adequate for Silhouette using 125gn Hornady's.
I have no reason to change anything - what's not to like?

[Edit] I should also add that those groups are on paper with aperture sights, as used for silhouette. It is necessary to know how much to wind the sights up and down for the various ranges. For silhouette I have no need of better than one inch @ 100mtr

[womble]

I haven’t got those groups with mine. And I’ve owned three different rifles. The micro groove 94 marlin. A Winchester 94 trapper or ranger can’t remember. And a chiappa 92

But you also have to factor in I’m the shooter so..

That appears to be the common denominator here.

I only sight them at 50 yards anyway. I don’t really use them beyond that. But when I have taken them to a proper shooting range yeah not so great.

Anyway I’ve never got great groups 100 yards with the above.

But I’m fairly competent with a scoped 22 . I’m not completely retarded.

I do shoot goats out beyond 50 , with the 357 , two or three times a year when I’m in a particular region. Because I know where they are and seemingly nobody else wants to shoot them . But goats are easy to knock over.
I’ve shot pigs with them, but then I’ll shoot pigs with anything really. A slingshot if I had one.

So I guess I’ve never really put the time in to work on a hundred yards at ranges with them . Just not the gun I want to do that with. And from what experience I’ve had with them at that range. Not really inspired to. I’d rather do it with a calibre that’s designed for 100 yards.

[Blr243]

U can buy hornady flex tips to load your own in 357 I think they weigh 140

[bigrich]

The 357 in a lever gun is never going to give great 100 yard groups on paper.

That may be your experience, or opinion.
My M94 357Mag shoots one inch groups @ 100 mtr which is entirely adequate for Silhouette using 125gn Hornady's.
I have no reason to change anything - what's not to like?

[Edit] I should also add that those groups are on paper with aperture sights, as used for silhouette. It is necessary to know how much to wind the sights up and down for the various ranges. For silhouette I have no need of better than one inch @ 100mtr

I've found the 357 to be very accurate in the right rifle with handloads . the other 35cal i had was a 358win built on a push feed xtr model 70 . with 225 sierra GK it'd clover leaf at 100 . should've kept it ....

[Obie73]

"My M94 357Mag shoots one inch groups @ 100 mtr which is entirely adequate for Silhouette using 125gn Hornady's."

No1_49er, 1" groups at 100 m with a .357 mag lever action is wonderful. Well done! My goal is to get the smallest possible groups at 100 m, open sights, with a .357 mag lever action rifle, or maybe a 45-70. I'd like to get my average group size down to about 2.5" or less at 100m, with a simple bench rest. I've started handloading. It's a difficult goal but hopefully doable with a lot of practice, experience, and trying different loads.

[No1_49er]

I'd like to get my average group size down to about 2.5" or less at 100m, with a simple bench rest. I've started handloading. It's a difficult goal but hopefully doable with a lot of practice, experience, and trying different loads.

Getting there was an interesting journey, for me.
I was looking for a load that was sufficient to tip over the Ram target without smashing my shoulder i.e. minimum recoil.
Started with LilGun - reasonably accurate but far too much recoil from unnecessary velocity.
TrailBoss - excessive velocity and poor accuracy.
Titegroup - sensible velocity and good accuracy. You do have to learn to meter small quantities of powder though.

Some people are intent on seeking maximum velocity but, in doing so, sacrifice accuracy.
My load does what I need it to do; it doesn't matter that the trajectory might be a bit of a rainbow - that's what good adjustable sights are for.

Good luck with your search.

[Fester]

A .357 can't really be expected to perform as a 100yd gun, even the 30-30 is at it's best at around 80.

A 45-70 packs more punch and in the right hands would hold it's own at 100m, not that I shoot one.
Just an educated guess.

[No1_49er]

A .357 can't really be expected to perform as a 100yd gun, even the 30-30 is at it's best at around 80.

A 45-70 packs more punch and in the right hands would hold it's own at 100m, not that I shoot one.
Just an educated guess.

I seems that you've got a lot to learn.
I don't see too many (if at all) 45-70 on the line at silhouette matches - perhaps the occasional 38-55.
Why would one of the most favoured guns for Lever Action Rifle Silhouette be a 30-30 which can easily tip over the 200mtr Ram targets? In fact, even the 357Mag has been known to do it, but not every time.
"Not that I shoot one, Just an educated guess"?
Keep guessing, pal.

[wrenchman]

I have Henry in 357 you can do a lot with the 357 when hand loading mine was a father's day gift year ago.
It is a round that that gets much better from a rifle pushing 3030 ballistics.
Keep in mind you want to run good hunting ammo if hunting

[Biscuits]

There is zero chance of getting a 1" group firing offhand with a lever action at 100 yards. That's a 1MoA group. It would be a decent group for a bolt action shooting prone, so offhand with a lever just ain't happening.

Personally, I do not think lever action rifles are particuarly inaccurate. I've owned 2 x .357s, a Chiappa which I ended up selling because of it's inaccuracy (and it habit of jamming), then a modern Marlin which is relatively accurate, but still nowhere as accurate as a bolt action with a scope.

The lack of accuracy comes from the standard iron sights which have a big front sight, which is good for speed & visibility but at the expense of accuracy, the fact that a lever action has more parts and lower tolerances than a bolt action, the magazine tube is attached to the barrel, so as you use ammunition in the tube, the weight of the tube changes and the barrel harmonics change.

[bigrich]

There is zero chance of getting a 1" group firing offhand with a lever action at 100 yards. That's a 1MoA group. It would be a decent group for a bolt action shooting prone, so offhand with a lever just ain't happening.

Personally, I do not think lever action rifles are particuarly inaccurate. I've owned 2 x .357s, a Chiappa which I ended up selling because of it's inaccuracy (and it habit of jamming), then a modern Marlin which is relatively accurate, but still nowhere as accurate as a bolt action with a scope.

The lack of accuracy comes from the standard iron sights which have a big front sight, which is good for speed & visibility but at the expense of accuracy, the fact that a lever action has more parts and lower tolerances than a bolt action, the magazine tube is attached to the barrel, so as you use ammunition in the tube, the weight of the tube changes and the barrel harmonics change.

levers are intended to be a utilitarian , handy firearm . but a marlin fitted with a scope and no barrel bands , like the xlr can be very accurate . i had a winchester 64A years ago in 30-30 , light weight, 24" barrel , half mag with no barrel band . first 3 shots off a bench rest with handloads and a williams peep was 1 1/2" at 100on average . i understand XLR marlins are very accurate comp rifle for lever silhouette comps . 1" offhand groups at 100 are a fairytale IMHO

[No1_49er]

I don't think that anybody has claimed to shoot 1" groups offhand.
What has been stated is that my M94 in .357Mag shoots a 1" group at 100mtr, which is more than adequate for metallic silhouette, which is all shot offhand.
I should also add that all testing is done with a 24x scope fitted so that true group size can be established. For l/a silhouette shooting the sights are then replaced with a Williams/Lyman combo of aperture sights.
At no time has it been said that the group was achieved offhand. All testing is done off a benchrest in order that an acceptable group size, from one of many test loads, could be established.
Having found such a load means that there can be a reasonable level of confidence in hitting the target from an offhand stance.
Do not misconstrue what has been written.

[womble]

[womble]

And also
Marlins are the Toyota Camrys of lever actions.

[niteowl]

]

In the recent Australian Shooter mag there is an article that states that the Henry 45/70 lever action rifle reviewed by the author fired an impressive off hand "tight group" at 100 yards. I'm not sure if the main photo of the article is the 100 yard group referred to in the article but it shows what looks to be a 5-shot group that must be in the ballpark of about a 1" group. If that's how that rifle shoots off-hand at 100 yards well then that is very impressive indeed

This got me thinking.

I've read this before, that the 45/70 out of a Marlin lever action (or in this case a Henry, very similar to a Marlin lever action) is very accurate at 100 yards (or metres).

But if we're talking strictly 100 m range or less, is a 45/70 lever action rifle actually inherently more accurate than a .357 magnum lever action rifle? Does the greater powder and oomph behind the projectile of the 45/70 make it more accurate (ie, smaller groups) than a .357 mag rifle?

Would I get smaller groups shooting offhand at 100m with a 45/70 lever action compared to a 357 lever action? Before you ask, I'm not interested in a .308 BLR or a .30/30. Just specifically either a 45/70 or a .357 rifle.

The big appeal of the .357 mag rifle for me is the light recoil. The recoil of the 45/70 isn't something I'd look forward to. Plus the expense of the extra powder doesn't exactly appeal.

First para seems to suggest that it was off hand ??

[bladeracer]

If you shoot enough groups I reckon eventually you'll shoot a very impressive one, but shooting that group twice in one year is very unlikely.

I have four centrefire levers currently in .38 Special, .357 Mag, .44 Mag and .30-30. I don't consider any of them to be precision rifles by anybody's measure. I don't think the lack of precision is anything to do with the sights, put the same sights on an accurate bolt-action rifle and you can shoot very good groups. The lack of precision is down to the design of the rifle. A two-piece stock is a problem to start with, especially with the forend fixed to the barrel, hang a magazine tube off the barrel and you have more issues. The ideal, for accuracy and reliability, would be a single-piece stock with a full-floating barrel, a rotating bolt for good strong lock-up, and a box magazine.

Off bags I'm pretty happy if I can shoot regular five-round 60mm groups at 50m, or four-minutes. This gives me theoretically a rifle capable of holding 120mm at 100m and 240mm at 200m, theoretically as I said. That makes it _possible_ to hit the half-scale silhouettes, shooting offhand it just comes down to me holding as well as I can, and firing at the proper moment.

My Marlin is probably my most accurate lever, scoped off bags, but only with jacketed bullets. With cast bullets the .30-30 probably beats them all by a small margin.

There is zero chance of getting a 1" group firing offhand with a lever action at 100 yards. That's a 1MoA group. It would be a decent group for a bolt action shooting prone, so offhand with a lever just ain't happening.

Personally, I do not think lever action rifles are particuarly inaccurate. I've owned 2 x .357s, a Chiappa which I ended up selling because of it's inaccuracy (and it habit of jamming), then a modern Marlin which is relatively accurate, but still nowhere as accurate as a bolt action with a scope.

The lack of accuracy comes from the standard iron sights which have a big front sight, which is good for speed & visibility but at the expense of accuracy, the fact that a lever action has more parts and lower tolerances than a bolt action, the magazine tube is attached to the barrel, so as you use ammunition in the tube, the weight of the tube changes and the barrel harmonics change.

[bladeracer]

]

In the recent Australian Shooter mag there is an article that states that the Henry 45/70 lever action rifle reviewed by the author fired an impressive off hand "tight group" at 100 yards. I'm not sure if the main photo of the article is the 100 yard group referred to in the article but it shows what looks to be a 5-shot group that must be in the ballpark of about a 1" group. If that's how that rifle shoots off-hand at 100 yards well then that is very impressive indeed.
First para seems to suggest that it was off hand ??

First paragraph does not suggest the offhand group was one-inch, it mentions that a "tight group" was shot offhand, and that there is a photo of a roughly one-inch group - any correlation between the two is drawn by the OP of this thread, not the magazine article. I haven't seen the article though, perhaps the article states that the one-inch group was shot offhand?

[womble]

Chuck Connors could do that shooting from the hip

[bigrich]

I don't think that anybody has claimed to shoot 1" groups offhand.
What has been stated is that my M94 in .357Mag shoots a 1" group at 100mtr, which is more than adequate for metallic silhouette, which is all shot offhand.
I should also add that all testing is done with a 24x scope fitted so that true group size can be established. For l/a silhouette shooting the sights are then replaced with a Williams/Lyman combo of aperture sights.
At no time has it been said that the group was achieved offhand. All testing is done off a benchrest in order that an acceptable group size, from one of many test loads, could be established.
Having found such a load means that there can be a reasonable level of confidence in hitting the target from an offhand stance.
Do not misconstrue what has been written.

sorry mate , i replied to a post by someone else who alluded to 1" offhand shots . chinese whispers hey

[bigrich]

Chuck Connors could do that shooting from the hip

in the original "magnificent seven" the character played by robert vaughn shoots a bandido of his horse at around 300 yards with a pistol .
he did steady it on his forearm for accuracy but

[Obie73]

"First paragraph does not suggest the offhand group was one-inch, it mentions that a "tight group" was shot offhand, and that there is a photo of a roughly one-inch group - any correlation between the two is drawn by the OP of this thread, not the magazine article. I haven't seen the article though, perhaps the article states that the one-inch group was shot offhand?"

A slight correction is needed here. I drew no correlation. I simply reported the facts of what the article stated, and then described the photo the article had on its title page, and mentioned what could potentially or perhaps reasonably be correlated from that if one was inclined to make a correlation. I then asked a question. I got my answer too, so thank you everyone. The answer is no, a lever action cannot fire a 5 shot 1" group offhand at 100m. I am relieved, because it seemed an impossible standard to attain.

I don't know if the magazine unintentionally suggested anything or not. And I don't care. All I wanted was an answer from those who have vastly more experience than me. I can now relax, and get back to reasonable expectations of how accurately lever action rifles chambered in .357 and 45-70 can shoot.

[Obie73]

You know, it is probably easy to check out the article. We all receive it, yes? Have a look, and see what you think.

[bladeracer]

You know, it is probably easy to check out the article. We all receive it, yes? Have a look, and see what you think.

I used to get the mags, haven't I've received one for a while now. I haven't actually opened one for years though so it's no loss to me.