Do off the shelf rifles really differ that much?

[Shooter243]

Haha, clearly I've ruffled some feathers.

I'm obviously not going to buy a rifle and head out to 600m range for my first shot. I'll mostly be shooting at 200m but I'd like something that can reach out to 600m at least. I say 600m because that's longest range I've got access to at this point. I would like to eventually work my way up to 1000ms but thats a distant future kind of plan that I was hoping wouldnt require another rifle. Apparently not, at least not with .243 with a 1:10 twist.

I have considered .22 based on price of the rounds, but I cant shake how lacking the experinece was when I shot a .22 pistol. Try shooting event. I enjoyed the .243 I shot and it was pretty manageable despite having no real instruction or idea what I was doing. Hence, feeling comfortable jumping straight to a .243.

Still on the .22. Maybe someone can shed light on this thought. Will still have to worry about the barrel heating up when shooting a .22. If so in an hour of shooting, for example, how many more .22 rounds would i fire really, compared to .243 if im still pacing myself to avoid over heating the barrel? Again, asking this question as a novice with no experience. Anyway if the difference isnt that big I may stay with the .243.

Final issues with a .22 is im not sure how it will go for hunting. I'm under impression I'd likely be shooting at bores and roos. Will .22 cut it?

Regarding scopes, im getting mixed messages about need for magnification, however i am consider a leupod VX5. Is there a scope of similar price that has low end like 3 or 4 that reaches into early 20s that someone would recommend, i.e. still pretty clear?

Regarding actual question, there seems to be some consensus that more money equals less likely to get a dud that slipped through quality control. Also, seems like most rifle will shoot sub moa and arent objectively different regarding design features.

[SCJ429]

I am betting that on a hot summer day if you shot 1000 rounds through your 22LR as fast as you could reload your magizene, it still would not get too hot to shoot.

A 243 with a varmint barrel is going to be too hot to shoot in under 10 rounds shot in succession.

[TassieTiger]

I’ve tried to heat one of my .22 by cycling magazines - don’t think it can be done.
My lightweight 30-06 shooting 168’s is too hot to touch after 5 shots on a cold day.

A Leo VX5 is a big $ commitment straight up - but a great scope. A vx3 6-20 would cost half of a 5 and performance would be close to equitable for a new shooter.

[Sergeant Hartman]

Maybe if you read my post you almost might see the answer. Anyway

With a thin 22lr barrel my wife speed shoot 50+ round without the barrel getting warm to touch in about 25min. With a thicker barrel even more.

On a 308 or 223 probably go though 30 round and the barrel is gelling very warm even with pacing in the 25min. I don't have a 243... but a 6.5 creedmoor which be similar about 1 every 1 or 2 minutes and probably after 15/20 that's about it.

Regards to scope look at atleast 25x scope for your 200-600m. But honestly nothing like talking to people actually doing it and trying their equipment. Not many rifles come in 1.8 twist or faster and the slower twists are more geared towards 243 as a hunting/varmint round upto 300m or less.

Lastly you havent ruffled anyone's feathers.... its probably more like what one of my friend thinks when he gives me a good suggestion and i don't listen to him... make my mistake and then come back to tell him... should have listened to ya mate

[GQshayne]

I have used my 15 power Meopta at 100m. If I was target shooting it would be pretty good I reckon. But at 600m, I don't think so. Target shooting, not hunting, which is very different. Hunting I would be on 4 power.

As for the rifle, I had a thought today about it. This is only a suggestion, and you may not be interested. I would consider a Howa barrelled action, mated to a Oryx or similar chassis. Chassis is $650, and barrelled action is about the same. It would be a really good long range set-up, in comparison to other off the shelf rifles at the same price point. And for a scope, how about a Meopta Optika 4.5-27 x 50? That would be a good long range rifle at a modest price. My view anyway. But not something I would want to carry far in the field.

[in2anity]

Mate I'll play devil's advocate; I bet you'll be able to get on paper at 600m with a half decent 243 shooting ammo it likes, even with a mediocre scope, no worries - in fact, I bet yu do it on the first day! Go for it I say! Just test some different ammo at a closer distance beforehand to find out what she likes and to get your zero. Cross-armed shooting with a good long-range gun from a steady rest really does make things easy. Just take your time, steady your heart, and after exhaling, pull the trigger at the right time Here's a guide to correct trigger control:

(credit to on_one_wheel for this one; dunno where he got it :P )

trigger.png (81.91 KiB) Viewed 5798 times

Shoot a ram-sized target from standing offhand at 500m with a crosswind; now that's when things start to get a little trickier... that truly takes practice.

But i do agree, you will never regret buying a quality 22lr. For a variety of reasons, I guarantee you will shoot it more than anything else...

[in2anity]

+1 for Leupold scopes. Have a look at the VX-3i 6.5-20x40 EFR CDS. Occasionally you can get em for less than a grand.

[Bill]

Jump in the deep end and buy one of these ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-fcTUmQKXo

[Faedy]

I run leupold scopes on all my centrefires.
All from the vx-3 range.
My favorite is the vx-3i 8.5-25x50 - it is the minimum Id want for 600m - 1000m.
Ive currently got it on my .223, but its about to get moved to my 300winmag.
As for your requirement, Id get a .308 for the long work you want, and a .22 for fun and discipline training

[Shooter243]

So I had a blond momement and didn't realise mine and other new posts were going onto the next page....

Thanks again for your input. I'll have to hit the range and try out these .22lr and see if I'll actually enjoy it. Hard to argue with how cheap and how much practice I'll get out of .22lr versus a centerfire. That said it's also important that I enjoy it. The recoil of the .243 didn't bother me.

Regarding scopes, I'm under the impression that cheap glass doesn't do well at high magnification, I.e. 15x plus. Because you start to zoom in on the imperfections that blur the image. If anyone can refute this it would be appreciate it.

Also do you need to actually look at something that's far away to tell how good the glass is?

Finally regarding glass. More expensive hopefully = more accurate tracking which is important for indexing the shots. Hence the willingness to spend a little. I'm a believer of buy once cry once. Another reason I don't want to get a .22 only to buy a larger cal later.

Also not so concerned with shooting out 1000m at this point.

[SCJ429]

It appears to me that you can get a 3-9x scope for $60 and the image is quite acceptable. If you get a cheap scope in the 25x to 30x range the image gets a bit cloudy or milky.. It is harder to use in mirage or low light. That is not to say you cannot see well enough to make a shot at those ranges.

I have not used these scope enough to comment on the reliability of their tracking. If something was going to fail on these scopes, I am betting that this is were it would occur.

Poor quality glass may look OK at an object 50 metres away, try and look at stuff at long range if you can.

[Wm.Traynor]

The subject of scopes is such a vexed question. Jackie Schmidtt, a Benchrest Hall of Fame member, called "tracking", a scopes weakest link. Instead of raising the subject of my experience with a US brand how about you buy two fairly cheap scopes (Hawke is one that has been mentioned here) and when the one in use stuffs up, send it back and install the spare. I heard of a bloke who does that with two Marches. If you frighten easily, don't look up their prices.

I might have mis-spelled Jackie's name.

[GQshayne]

I have a Japanese made Tasco World Class in 2-8. It is on my .22lr. On my .243 I have a 1-6 Swarovski.

I was sighting in the .22 and was having trouble seeing the holes in the target (black bull) on 8 power. So I grabbed the 10 power binoculars. No good either. I did not want to wait for the range to clear, so I grabbed the .243 to have a look through the 6 power Swaro. The holes were very clear and easily seen. Surprised me how much difference there was at close range. Big difference.

[Shootermick]

Buy whatever you want, personal preference wins out every time. But.. make sure you have at least one 22, if you’re like me and a lot of others you may just use it way more then you might think. Then just buy something else, and another something else, and so on. Safes full? Buy another one of the too.

[sungazer]

You just ont get sick of shooting 22s . it could be a top end Anschutz that you can shoot tiny targets with or a pump or a lever that you can plink at cans and stuff. Its an easy way to spend a few hours in the sun, not making too much noise, not beating yourself up or costing you a lot.

[gordicans]

I'm confused by your first paragraph ie

"Im looking to purchase a rifle for the first time and get into the sport. Not likely to have the oportunity to hunt often so I'm gearing towards something that'll easily reach out to 600 and has potential to hit out to 1000m."

Why does not having the opportunity to hunt often makes you want something that will easily reach out to 600 - 1000m's? Is it because you won't be hunting much so you can use it at the range? Or is it because you won't be hunting much so you'll need to take advantage of every opportunity and shoot animals at long distance? If it's the latter forget it, it's nonsense. Do you have any idea what a target looks like at 1000 meters through a scope? If you're new to the sport get a 22 and learn to reach out to 100 meters...1000 meters is total fantasy land if you are new to the sport. Critters need to be respected. Apologies if you are referring to targets

[marksman]

Jump in the deep end and buy one of these ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-fcTUmQKXo

this is very impressive for any factory rifle shooting factory ammo

it also shows how versatile the 6.5x55 swede is
when they were shooting at 1000 l was impressed with the statement that the 6.5x55 would be starting at 20% less power than the match grade 308 ammo they had used but at 1000 would have 20% more impact than the match grade 308 ammo,
l could have corrected the first guy to shoot in his setup on the rifle as well as his bi-pod use but he was hitting steel at 1000 the way he was doing it
obviously not competition record winners but they are not trying to be

thanks for putting this one up Bill

and they aren't bad for tea baggers eh Bill

[Stix]

this is very impressive for any factory rifle shooting factory ammo

it also shows how versatile the 6.5x55 swede is
when they were shooting at 1000 l was impressed with the statement that the 6.5x55 would be starting at 20% less power than the match grade 308 ammo they had used but at 1000 would have 20% more impact than the match grade 308 ammo,
l could have corrected the first guy to shoot in his setup on the rifle as well as his bi-pod use but he was hitting steel at 1000 the way he was doing it
obviously not competition record winners but they are not trying to be

thanks for putting this one up Bill

and they aren't bad for tea baggers eh Bill

Correct him ho w marksman...?

[GQshayne]

You just ont get sick of shooting 22s . it could be a top end Anschutz that you can shoot tiny targets with or a pump or a lever that you can plink at cans and stuff. Its an easy way to spend a few hours in the sun, not making too much noise, not beating yourself up or costing you a lot.

You make a good point for many people, but I am an exception. I do not use my .22 for this, I get bored in a heartbeat. I had an FN Browning .22, and replaced it with an Anschutz, so nice rifles too. I recently bought another box of Winchester Power Points for it, as my last packet was just about empty. Not sure how long I have had that old box, but it had a price sticker of $2.85. I am not much of a target shooter I guess.

[marksman]

"Correct him how marksman...?"

the first guy to shoot at 1000 has not set himself up to shoot consistently straight and does not load the bipod before he shoots Stix
this guy explains it better than l ever could, better setup/position = better precision
it is harder in the field sometimes but get this right and you are 2/3rd's of the way there

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLeJ8rRUSXc

if you watch the first guy at 1000 in Bills vid as he shoots the rifle jumps all over the place, what you want for precision is a smooth rearward push

to load up the bipod you put enough forward pressure on the bipod with your shoulder that you can let the rifle go and it will not fall off your shoulder, you do not want the legs dragging backward like this guy has happening when taking the shot
l cant find it at the moment but "mark and sam" videos have the technique you want and mark shows in slowmo how it should look

these are things IMHO everyone should know about and practice often before they start shooting animals at longer range
its all part of it and its what works for me good question Stix

[SCJ429]

I don't shoot 1000 metres from the prone position but do some shorter range stuff. I cannot make loading up the bipod work for me. I use light pressure from my shoulder and squeeze the rear bag. Light cheek weld and I keep my right hand thumb on the right side of the stock.

I am not a world class shooter but that is what works for me.

[marksman]

l'm not a world class shooter myself SCJ429, l dont even shoot comp of any sort, my pay off is filling the freezer with as little waste as possible

this is the utube vid from mark and sam about shooting from a bipod off a bench for precision shooting and explains bipod preload
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hh42VNxFkg

[SCJ429]

Thanks for the link MM, no disrespect to Mark or Sam but that technique does not work for me. The best prone bipod shooters are in F Class and it is interesting to see them at work. For me a light touch is easier to repeat and gives me better groups.

If loading the bipod works for you then you should continue but I cannot master the technique.

[Homer]

G'Day Fella's,

Shooter .243, in my experience, when it comes to these kinda things, you get what you pay for.

Whilst some of the factory produced rifles, are good value for money, some of the custom made rifles, are are a definite improvement on the factory offerings.
I have always been very impressed, with the Australian custom rifles, made by http://www.gcpdarms.com.
I have owned one for a couple of years now, and I'm so happy with it, I'm saving up for another one from them.

Here's my .338 Lap Mag.

.338 Lap Mag.JPG (720.5 KiB) Viewed 5580 times

Hope that helps

D'oh!
Homer

[Spanielz11]

G'day Shooter243,

I think most people have hit the nail on the head here as far as getting a 22LR to start practicing with.
If the maximun range that you can generally get to 200m with you having to travel to get out to a 600m range, my advice is this-
Grab yourself a HOWA 1500 Barreled action or one of the cheaper rifles(1 in 9 twist). same same for the your local store.
Dont stress about the stock because you are going to want to drop it into a Bell and Carlson or one of the many chassis that are going around. up to you if you want a detachable magazine or not. last but not least is glass, i highly reconmend bushnell, recently got a one of the NITRO line and by gods am i impressed with it. its no nightforce or schmidt but it definately can compete with them as far as quality for price goes.

Im saying this because i turned my Weatherby Vanguard (fancy HOWA) into a tack driver by doing just that.
The B&C stocks are alloy V-block bedded to get the best action to stock fit you can short of glass bedding the whole rifle.
The big thing is practicing, you can train all day on a rimfire but you will still need centre fire time. by going with a 223 you can buy those OSA bulk ammo deals and shoot to your hearts content. that little 223 with 55/60grain projectiles is more than capable of half minute groups at 200-300 from a well setup factory rifle.

All in just my 2cents, i wish you the best of luck with which ever direction you choose to go and am looking to forward to hearing your results, better yet seeing you on the range mate.

[SckSqzBngBlo]

Your situation might be possible to just buy 22 ammo and use your friends to practice with?
Let them use the gun you choose to buy and everyone can hopefully learn something.

[SCJ429]

G'day Shooter243,
Im saying this because i turned my Weatherby Vanguard (fancy HOWA) into a tack driver by doing just that.
The B&C stocks are alloy V-block bedded to get the best action to stock fit you can short of glass bedding the whole rifle.
The big thing is practicing, you can train all day on a rimfire but you will still need centre fire time. by going with a 223 you can buy those OSA bulk ammo deals and shoot to your hearts content. that little 223 with 55/60grain projectiles is more than capable of half minute groups at 200-300 from a well setup factory rifle.
.

Hey Spaniel,
Why doesn't your Weatherby Vangard (fancy Howa) feature on your Signiture block?

[Spanielz11]

Hey Spaniel,
Why doesn't your Weatherby Vangard (fancy Howa) feature on your Signiture block?


SCJ429,
Good point, just looked back over the signature and realised that I had infact forgotten to put it in. Since been fixed, so i thank you for pointing that out.

[sungazer]

Do you shoot F class? Is the or was the Musgrave a single shot target rifle?

[SCJ429]

Hey Spaniel,
Why doesn't your Weatherby Vangard (fancy Howa) feature on your Signiture block?


SCJ429,
Good point, just looked back over the signature and realised that I had infact forgotten to put it in. Since been fixed, so i thank you for pointing that out.

Nice wrk Spaniel, what do you prefer, the 222 or the 223. I have a soft spot for the 222 but only own a 223.