Ranged shooting

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Ranged shooting

Post by LTneo » 08 Jul 2018, 4:59 pm

He all. Im new to shooting but getting into it for the joy of ranged target shooting. I currently have to rifles. a Marlin XT .22 and a Howa 1500 .223
I'm looking to work my way to a distance of between 500-700 yards and would appreciate any advise. i have got both sighted to 100 yards. im not perfect yet and not going to move back till i can hit the target dead center every time. But as i said. looking for any advise that i can get in regards to accuracy, tips and tricks people have picked up over the years and also good places to shoot. I'm in gippsland in Victoria, i can sometime's shot at my parents farm but looking for somewhere else i can shoot. again, thanks for any advise
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by Stix » 08 Jul 2018, 6:56 pm

Only advice i have is if you want to shoot at 500-700 yds, id be practicing further than 100...!! As soon as you can print 3 shots in an inch at 100.
Push out to at least 200 for regular practice...if not 300...and dabble at 400...

Things get a little different beyond 100, so make the most out of your ammo...

But if you can shoot an inch at 100, id give 200-300 a crack..
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by Wm.Traynor » 08 Jul 2018, 6:58 pm

The VRA will let you shoot at long range; 300 to 1000 yards. But whether or not your 223 is suitable is another matter. To be competitive with it would require the 80 grain bullets and that requires a 1:7.5 twist. For longer than 7/800, you need a 30 inch barrel to develop velocities that are above the speed of sound, At The Target. Contact the VRA for your nearest Fullbore range and Good Luck :) :thumbsup:
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by bladeracer » 08 Jul 2018, 7:08 pm

Wm.Traynor wrote:The VRA will let you shoot at long range; 300 to 1000 yards. But whether or not your 223 is suitable is another matter. To be competitive with it would require the 80 grain bullets and that requires a 1:7.5 twist. For longer than 7/800, you need a 30 inch barrel to develop velocities that are above the speed of sound, At The Target. Contact the VRA for your nearest Fullbore range and Good Luck :) :thumbsup:


My 8"-twist shoots the 80gn ELDM just fine. I'm curious if they might work in a 9"-twist though.
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by bladeracer » 08 Jul 2018, 8:38 pm

LTneo wrote:He all. Im new to shooting but getting into it for the joy of ranged target shooting. I currently have to rifles. a Marlin XT .22 and a Howa 1500 .223
I'm looking to work my way to a distance of between 500-700 yards and would appreciate any advise. i have got both sighted to 100 yards. im not perfect yet and not going to move back till i can hit the target dead center every time. But as i said. looking for any advise that i can get in regards to accuracy, tips and tricks people have picked up over the years and also good places to shoot. I'm in gippsland in Victoria, i can sometime's shot at my parents farm but looking for somewhere else i can shoot. again, thanks for any advise


Do you load your own ammo already?
I'm in Gippsland as well, near Traralgon.
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by LTneo » 08 Jul 2018, 8:47 pm

@bladeracer
Hey mate. at the moment i'm buying from tackle world.. been using Buffalo river in the .223 where about do you go shooting??
i am looking at down the track once i get my own having a gun shed where i can store the rifles and make the ammo
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by LTneo » 08 Jul 2018, 8:52 pm

Stix wrote:Only advice i have is if you want to shoot at 500-700 yds, id be practicing further than 100...!! As soon as you can print 3 shots in an inch at 100.
Push out to at least 200 for regular practice...if not 300...and dabble at 400...

Things get a little different beyond 100, so make the most out of your ammo...

But if you can shoot an inch at 100, id give 200-300 a crack..


At the moment I'm starting at 100 yards because I'm only new.. that being said for targets I'm using playing cards Ha Ha. But i will be moving to 200 in the next few target days. just need to find somewhere i can shot more regularly.
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by bladeracer » 08 Jul 2018, 9:04 pm

LTneo wrote:@bladeracer
Hey mate. at the moment i'm buying from tackle world.. been using Buffalo river in the .223 where about do you go shooting??
i am looking at down the track once i get my own having a gun shed where i can store the rifles and make the ammo


I haven't used any factory ammo.
I shoot here on the farm.
I'm set up similarly, an office away from the house.
Do you shoot at any ranges around the area? I've heard Moe/Traf is a good one.
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by SCJ429 » 08 Jul 2018, 9:17 pm

To practice reading the wind I popped a 25x scope on my 22 and shoot at 200 metres. To get started with your 223 I would try some OSA 69 grain ammo until you start reloading. Most of all get a quality scope with as much magnification as you can and target turrets. What scope are you using now? What are your groups like at 100? Have you tried dialling up to 200 or further out? If you did, do you know how to use ballistic tables to do this?
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by LTneo » 08 Jul 2018, 9:28 pm

bladeracer wrote:
LTneo wrote:@bladeracer
Hey mate. at the moment i'm buying from tackle world.. been using Buffalo river in the .223 where about do you go shooting??
i am looking at down the track once i get my own having a gun shed where i can store the rifles and make the ammo


I haven't used any factory ammo.
I shoot here on the farm.
I'm set up similarly, an office away from the house.
Do you shoot at any ranges around the area? I've heard Moe/Traf is a good one.



At the moment i just shoot at the farm my parents rent out tanjil way.. but i only have one paddock i can shot in an they keep putting cows in the paddock... i am looking at the moe/traf one..
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by LTneo » 08 Jul 2018, 9:33 pm

SCJ429 wrote:To practice reading the wind I popped a 25x scope on my 22 and shoot at 200 metres. To get started with your 223 I would try some OSA 69 grain ammo until you start reloading. Most of all get a quality scope with as much magnification as you can and target turrets. What scope are you using now? What are your groups like at 100? Have you tried dialling up to 200 or further out? If you did, do you know how to use ballistic tables to do this?



can't remember the scope atm, just the one that came with it. The grouping are ok but could be better... moving up to 200 soon. and learning the ballistic table... need to find a teacher lol
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by straightshooter » 09 Jul 2018, 8:18 am

Wm.Traynor wrote:The VRA will let you shoot at long range; 300 to 1000 yards. But whether or not your 223 is suitable is another matter. To be competitive with it would require the 80 grain bullets and that requires a 1:7.5 twist. For longer than 7/800, you need a 30 inch barrel to develop velocities that are above the speed of sound, At The Target. Contact the VRA for your nearest Fullbore range and Good Luck :) :thumbsup:


Just to add to your good advice.

At this time don't be too worried your rifle is incapable of very long range accuracy, at least you can see how it performs at medium ranges.
Many clubs welcome non geriatric new members with open arms.
A wealth of advice and information will be available to you from the old f@rts in these clubs which you may benefit from if you are able sort the wheat from the chaff.
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by Gwion » 09 Jul 2018, 9:15 am

Work on shooting techniques like establishing a natural point of aim a clean trigger release/break by shooting your 22lr at 100, 150 & then 200yd/m. Out at 100-200, this wil also give you experience in wind reading.

When you want to learn to read wind, don't focus on hitting the bull; focus on a good aim and clean trigger release while watching enviromental factors/indicators of wind speed. Then note, in MOA, they effect that wind had on the bullet: as in distance from bull to impact. This is very cheap to do with a 22lr. You then work on timing your shot to match conditions as close as possible to your last shot. Get this right and you will have a small or at least consistant group. Take notes. Then worry about trying to hit the bull. This is valuable practice and cheap to do at shorter ranges with 22lr if you don't have access to a long range, save you heaps of money on ammo to be put towards that nice scope, better bi-pod or rifle upgrade.

Your local fullbore club will be the place to hone skills but be prepaired to be told your kit isn't suitable... etc, etc. Don't let it stop you going, just don't be surprised if it happens.

I started f-class about 3 years ago with a howa 1:12twist 223rem shooting 50gn bullets. Sure, you aren't going to be competitive with 'proper' target shooters but you will learn a lot about collecting data and reading wind. You can always upgrade gear at your own pace.
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by bladeracer » 09 Jul 2018, 2:50 pm

LTneo wrote:At the moment i just shoot at the farm my parents rent out tanjil way.. but i only have one paddock i can shot in an they keep putting cows in the paddock... i am looking at the moe/traf one..


If noise is the reason you don't like to shoot at home you could try reduced loads. Even subsonic .223 rounds still have double or triple the ballistic coefficient of .22LR bullets, but BC really doesn't become relevant until past 300m or so. And the wind affects the slower bullet far more than a high-velocity one, making wind reading more challenging.

We have cows, as do our neighbours, but they don't mind me shooting at all. Cows are pretty curious, which I think overcomes any fear of the loud noises. Although all my neighbours, except one, have firearms, and none mind me shooting, I try to keep my centrefire shooting to weekdays, when most are at work, and focus on .22LR and reduced centrefire loads on the weekends, when they're here at home enjoying country life with their families. With the wind and rain though, I often have to do some shooting on weekends when developing loads, or I could wait for months to have a still day.

I'd like to get out to the Moe range sometime for a look, but I need to find out if they're open during the week. My neighbour has been there a couple times to zero his rifle. He tells me they have a rule that requires everybody to turn around and place their rifles in a rack _behind_ them after each session?? Surely it would be simpler, and potentially safer, to simply rack the rifles _forward_ right beside the shooting positions?

I have to go up to Frankston this week to pick up two rifles so I'll try to drop in there and see if I can out anything about it.
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 09 Jul 2018, 3:34 pm

Please let us/me know if moe open during the week for their members or can it be hired. I think moe is slightly closer to me than little river. But on their website it only says open Saturday afternoon. And Saturday's are usually busy for me.
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by bladeracer » 09 Jul 2018, 5:05 pm

Ziad wrote:Please let us/me know if moe open during the week for their members or can it be hired. I think moe is slightly closer to me than little river. But on their website it only says open Saturday afternoon. And Saturday's are usually busy for me.


Me too. Too many things to get sorted on the weekends to be going out to ranges. If I want to do some shooting I can fit it in between what I'm doing here without losing half a day travelling.

Just had a look at the website, don't appear to be very friendly. Members of the public can only attend by prior arrangement with the secretary. Maximum of 8mm. Only Saturday, and not even all day, only after 1300hrs. Membership $290 is not bad, provided it allows access to the range more often than three or four hours per week. I'll email them but it seems pointless.
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 09 Jul 2018, 5:26 pm

That's what I ws thinking... but lang lang and moe clubs website (and none of the other vra clubs) mention that the members get more than the Saturday to shoot
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by sungazer » 09 Jul 2018, 6:16 pm

Most of that Membership fee goes to the VRA and NRAA ($210) the club is only getting $80 towards its running. It is becoming a very contentious issue as not much of that money is seen by members as providing facilities or services to the majority of members.
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by bladeracer » 09 Jul 2018, 6:35 pm

sungazer wrote:Most of that Membership fee goes to the VRA and NRAA ($210) the club is only getting $80 towards its running. It is becoming a very contentious issue as not much of that money is seen by members as providing facilities or services to the majority of members.


I'm happy to help them out by hiring the range during the week.
In fact, if enough of us put our hands up for it maybe they'd jump at the idea?
Ten of us at $100 each for the day should be useful funding.
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 09 Jul 2018, 6:44 pm

Darn, what is that money used 4 anyone know. Is it where they basically pay/sponsor elite shooters? Which is not a bad thing, but maybe now and isa etc should step up.

I worked out this week that from the sale of every firearm etc the govt esp and very likely the distributors make more money than the gun shop. No wonder hardly normal types don't get in the guns business.. lol

While on the other hand, ssaa in the current newsletter telling how they give 8 million to the state based orgs for other things including their ranges.
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 09 Jul 2018, 6:46 pm

Another idea is that if enough ppl hire the place as a group anges have a trained RO or two, so range only has to get one volunteer.
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by sungazer » 09 Jul 2018, 6:55 pm

From what I understand as far as helping state and international teams the extent of help is not that much as in they pay the entry fees and perhaps a uniform. Competitors pay for all their own travel and accommodation costs. Some of the money that helps international teams come from the government if the competition qualifies again the money is not big. The VRA has a shop that is only open two days a week and they don't make money from that. Their prices are ok but not ridiculously cheap they could do a lot more and really should make money. The whole infrastructure is being a lot more closely looked at these days. The office bearers are all volunteers. There is some part time administration people that process memberships and competition results and grading system for all members ect.
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by bladeracer » 09 Jul 2018, 6:55 pm

Ziad wrote:I worked out this week that from the sale of every firearm etc the govt esp and very likely the distributors make more money than the gun shop. No wonder hardly normal types don't get in the guns business.. lol


Yep, and that is why I prefer to buy from a dedicated gunshop rather than a camping or fishing shop that also sells firearms. Those places won't miss my money if I spend it elsewhere because they have people coming in to buy all the other stuff they sell.
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by bladeracer » 09 Jul 2018, 7:06 pm

sungazer wrote:From what I understand as far as helping state and international teams the extent of help is not that much as in they pay the entry fees and perhaps a uniform. Competitors pay for all their own travel and accommodation costs. Some of the money that helps international teams come from the government if the competition qualifies again the money is not big. The VRA has a shop that is only open two days a week and they don't make money from that. Their prices are ok but not ridiculously cheap they could do a lot more and really should make money. The whole infrastructure is being a lot more closely looked at these days. The office bearers are all volunteers. There is some part time administration people that process memberships and competition results and grading system for all members ect.


Does it not occur to them that what they're doing currently simply keeps people from joining their clubs, and thus is self-limiting their income? If they have a cadre that is able to attend on Saturday arvo's then stick with that format, but don't also restrict range access at times that might suit other people. I haven't shot anything at a club since I was shooting IPSC. Our membership allowed us to use the club every day except Wednesdays (because Police and military hired it every week), we had our own keys, no bookings or paperwork to sign, and no additional fees. We had to keep the gates locked, stop shooting at 1700hrs (required in the club licence), and when we finished, we had to clear away any equipment we had used.
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by Gwion » 09 Jul 2018, 9:40 pm

sungazer wrote:Most of that Membership fee goes to the VRA and NRAA ($210) the club is only getting $80 towards its running. It is becoming a very contentious issue as not much of that money is seen by members as providing facilities or services to the majority of members.


Same is happening with TRA affiliated clubs. Little support for regional clubs and few people willing to get involved and change things.

People need to realise that small regional clubs are run by people who volunteer their time to provide opportunity for people to enjoy the sport and have a place to pactice. Instead of whinging about opening hours, get involved and help build the club so there are more people to share thge burden of maintenance and RO duties...
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by Gwion » 09 Jul 2018, 9:50 pm

Ranges are also often on private land and are only licenced for operation under supervision by a registered RO.

If you allowed a club to ooerate a range on your property, would you want randoms turning up at their leisure to randomly shoot?
If you where the range licencee, would you want unsupervised people shooting while you were liable???
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by bladeracer » 09 Jul 2018, 10:22 pm

Gwion wrote:Same is happening with TRA affiliated clubs. Little support for regional clubs and few people willing to get involved and change things.

People need to realise that small regional clubs are run by people who volunteer their time to provide opportunity for people to enjoy the sport and have a place to pactice. Instead of whinging about opening hours, get involved and help build the club so there are more people to share thge burden of maintenance and RO duties...


Not everybody is able to be a volunteer, so we'd rather support a club with our money than our time.
The "no attendance without prior arrangement" and such comments do not entice me to want to join a club that probably doesn't want new members, and then endeavour to fix that same club that is probably firmly entrenched in it's own ways. Clubs need to decide whether they exist only for their current membership, or whether they want to support all shooters in their region looking for somewhere to shoot.

I am more than happy to pay sufficient money that the club doesn't need to be managed on a volunteer basis, and I think there are many other shooters that would also pay a premium to have somewhere they can shoot at their own convenience.

Many of the rifle competitions I've seen only shoot a few dozen rounds when they do get to the range, and that's not my idea of a worthwhile expenditure of my time and money. I don't want to spend more on fuel than ammunition when I go somewhere local to do some shooting. When I want to spend a few hours shooting, shooting is what I want to do. Not socialising, or talking about past or future competitions, or talking about firearms or reloading, or watching other people shooting. I would like to load some ammo as well, if I'm doing load development, without being bothered by other people who have expended their ten or twenty rounds for the month and are bored.

For me, and I suspect, for many other shooters, I have zero interest in shooting competitions for trophies or glory, or anything else. I simply want somewhere I can go and do some shooting when I wish to, and how I wish to. For many of us shooting is about hunting, or merely becoming more proficient with our firearms, without being forced to enter competitions to be able to enjoy practicing our shooting.

If you're a member of a club, put the idea forward at the next meeting, and I'll be guessing that the idea is thoroughly ridiculed by the core members that couldn't cope with seeing new faces shooting at "their" club.

As more and more new shooters enter our sport, someone, somewhere, will see the gaping chasm and do something about it, and the existing clubs will dwindle away to non-existence as their members die off.

I shoot for fun, and I don't see most shooting competitions as being much fun.

I wrote to SSAA about getting RO qualification a couple years back. I thought I would be able to share the burden by being able to RO other shooters that also wanted to attend a club for informal shooting. I would have to dig back through my emails, but essentially, I couldn't even apply to the training course unless I was going to commit to being there in regular attendance, which I am not in a position to do, particularly at my closest range, 2.5hrs away.
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by bladeracer » 09 Jul 2018, 10:27 pm

Gwion wrote:Ranges are also often on private land and are only licenced for operation under supervision by a registered RO.

If you allowed a club to ooerate a range on your property, would you want randoms turning up at their leisure to randomly shoot?
If you where the range licencee, would you want unsupervised people shooting while you were liable???


I'm talking about hiring the range, not randomly showing up, and not unsupervised. If I were an actual shooter that understood what other shooters want, then sure.

My pistol club in Perth never had any problems with allowing their hundreds of members unencumbered access to the range, and an IPSC range has a lot more equipment than most rifle ranges I've seen.
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by Gwion » 09 Jul 2018, 10:51 pm

You are sadly mistaken, BR.
I am the President of my club and we are actively trying to grow membership by increasing shooting options and extending range times. People aren't willing to pay more (at least around here) and what happens is we end up putting more time in for no real response from membership or the public with apparently ichy trigger fingers.

I also don't have time to volunteer. I have 200acres and a growing business to manage but if no-one makes time to put in, the club will disolve and the range will close.

Lets pretend we coukd open the range anytime we want and attract, say, 200 members. To set up as you describe, we would need a minimum of 5 staff to operate. To be open ass you suggest they would have to be pretty well full time jobs or split up among more people on part time basis. Most reasonably competant people wouldn't work for less that about $25/hr as a minimum and most want a lot more. So. 5 staff at about $50k/pa, plus range upkeep, say another $50k/pa. $300k. Even with 200 members, they would all have to commit $1500pa to support the range.....
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by Gwion » 09 Jul 2018, 10:55 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Gwion wrote:Ranges are also often on private land and are only licenced for operation under supervision by a registered RO.

If you allowed a club to ooerate a range on your property, would you want randoms turning up at their leisure to randomly shoot?
If you where the range licencee, would you want unsupervised people shooting while you were liable???


I'm talking about hiring the range, not randomly showing up, and not unsupervised. If I were an actual shooter that understood what other shooters want, then sure.

My pistol club in Perth never had any problems with allowing their hundreds of members unencumbered access to the range, and an IPSC range has a lot more equipment than most rifle ranges I've seen.


Most NRAA affiliated clubs operate on private land that is leased at a token rate because the land owner wants to support the sport. If you think it is such a potential money spinner, why not turn your property into a range???
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