Finally bought a Winchester....

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Finally bought a Winchester....

Post by in2anity » 09 Jul 2018, 12:20 pm

I finally got my mittens on a 1905-built genuine article:

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1892 Half, 32-20
overview2.jpg (629.22 KiB) Viewed 6279 times


barrel.jpg
Resleaved + fine front blade
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What's its purpose?

Pistol-cartridge, metallic silhouette + light-game hunting

What makes it so suitable?

Due to the following reasons:

    1. 24", (heavyish) octagonal barrel
    2. Half length magazine (no barrel bands)
    3. Near new (resleaved) barrel
    4. Chambered in the light-recoiling 32-20
    5. Natively takes a tang receiver
    6. Very reasonably priced

How does it shoot?

Incredibly; not only is it inherently accurate, but more importantly, the long sight radius, super fine front post and low recoil equates to easily the most user-friendly (iron-sighted) lever gun I've shot to date. I see now why old Winchesters are so popular, and also why the 32-20 is sometimes categorised as a varmint round.

What condition is it in?

The barrel is immaculate, but the action was absolutely PUTRID, like it hadn't been cleaned in 113 years! So I firstly tried just spraying out with carb cleaner:

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Sprayed with carb-cleaner (no dissasembly)
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Then after realising how disgusting it was, a full disassembly saw a phoenix rise from the ashes:

dissasembly.jpg
Yikes
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reasembly.jpg
Post re-assembly
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Last edited by in2anity on 11 Jul 2018, 9:14 am, edited 8 times in total.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Finally bought a Winchester....

Post by SCJ429 » 09 Jul 2018, 12:35 pm

Nice job, what was the hammer for?
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Re: Finally bought a Winchester....

Post by in2anity » 09 Jul 2018, 12:38 pm

SCJ429 wrote:Nice job, what was the hammer for?


Knocking the lower tang out (with a brass punch) - it was as if it were glued in place (from all the grime!)
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Finally bought a Winchester....

Post by Noisydad » 09 Jul 2018, 1:05 pm

You are gunna have so much fun with that! It’ll shoot a 200 yard plough disc no problem!
There's still a few of Wile. E Coyote's ideas that I haven't tried yet.
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Re: Finally bought a Winchester....

Post by in2anity » 09 Jul 2018, 1:12 pm

Noisydad wrote:You are gunna have so much fun with that! It’ll shoot a 200 yard plough disc no problem!


With a bit more load development I'm confident it'll bench consistent 2moa (which is quite incredible for a lever) - I'll post some groups when I get a load tuned up. At the moment I've only tried some arbitrary TB loads without a crimp, and all the deviation was on the vertical; less than an inch spread @50m on the horizontal! My only complaint about the 32-20 is it's not a straight-wall, which removes the speed and luxury of carbide depriming...
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Re: Finally bought a Winchester....

Post by No1_49er » 09 Jul 2018, 1:50 pm

Nice :thumbsup:
Now tell us how much you "stole it" for :?:
But it'll never come apart as easily as a Marlin :lol:
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Re: Finally bought a Winchester....

Post by bladeracer » 09 Jul 2018, 2:58 pm

That looks exactly like a hex-barrel '92 I borrowed many years ago, except that one would've been lucky to group eighteen-inches at 25m :-)

My dealer had one last year, but at $800, I wasn't willing to risk it shooting like my previous one.
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Re: Finally bought a Winchester....

Post by in2anity » 09 Jul 2018, 3:09 pm

No1_49er wrote:Now tell us how much you "stole it" for :?:


lol - $775 including courier fees from WA (to NSW).

No1_49er wrote:But it'll never come apart as easily as a Marlin :lol:


Spot on - I have a Marlin 1894CB chambered in 32H&R. That particular rifle is actually based on the 39 action, so it does not have that right-hand, rear pillar (dunno about terminology here sorry). This rifle comes apart with the removal of a single screw, completely exposing the guts of the receiver, allowing for very easy and thorough cleaning (not to mention allowing the use of a rod from the receiver end!). That's one of the big benefits of the marlin over the Winchester - and many pistol powders like AR2205 are DIRTY :problem: . Pity that Marlin is only a 20"...
Last edited by in2anity on 09 Jul 2018, 3:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Finally bought a Winchester....

Post by in2anity » 09 Jul 2018, 3:12 pm

bladeracer wrote:That looks exactly like a hex-barrel '92 I borrowed many years ago, except that one would've been lucky to group eighteen-inches at 25m :-)

My dealer had one last year, but at $800, I wasn't willing to risk it shooting like my previous one.


Yeah the person who sold it to me assured me of its accuracy - that was a major factor in the decision. I take it that it's all down to the condition of the barrel.
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Re: Finally bought a Winchester....

Post by Stix » 09 Jul 2018, 7:02 pm

That looks a cracker in2... :thumbsup:

Im really looking forward to hearing all about your new toy as you go through the courting process & load development...!!
Post up lots mate...

Im so envious...i really want one to play with...!!!
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Re: Finally bought a Winchester....

Post by in2anity » 09 Jul 2018, 9:41 pm

Stix wrote:That looks a cracker in2... :thumbsup:

Im really looking forward to hearing all about your new toy as you go through the courting process & load development...!!
Post up lots mate...

Im so envious...i really want one to play with...!!!

Cheers Stix!

Buy one - there are plenty of them on abused guns - - I guess just consider the condition of the barrel.

I suppose the goto load is AR2205 - I’m not a huge fan of it tbh though. Any of you blokes tried Unique or Lilgun? How do they fair in terms of cleanliness?
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Re: Finally bought a Winchester....

Post by Gamerancher » 10 Jul 2018, 8:49 am

Try 4gr of AP-70 behind a 115 to 120gr cast bullet.
I highly doubt Bladeracer had one with a "hex" barrel, never been one made, only made with round or octagonal.
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Re: Finally bought a Winchester....

Post by in2anity » 10 Jul 2018, 9:15 am

Gamerancher wrote:Try 4gr of AP-70 behind a 115 to 120gr cast bullet.
I highly doubt Bladeracer had one with a "hex" barrel, never been one made, only made with round or octagonal.

Holy crap welcome back mate :drinks: where you been?
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Re: Finally bought a Winchester....

Post by Gamerancher » 10 Jul 2018, 9:17 am

Busy working, now getting ready to go to the U.S again for 5 weeks.
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Re: Finally bought a Winchester....

Post by in2anity » 10 Jul 2018, 9:54 am

Gamerancher wrote:Busy working, now getting ready to go to the U.S again for 5 weeks.


Work hard, play harder - I take it your going over for the championships? Cheers for the AP-70N advice - I am using a plain based 115gn pill - and I noticed that 4gr was listed on ADI - always comforting to work in the listed realm. Also AP70 should be a lot easier to get that lilgun, thx :thumbsup:
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Re: Finally bought a Winchester....

Post by Blutius Maximus » 10 Jul 2018, 3:44 pm

in2anity, how have you found that fold down peep? In particular, when firing and when carrying.
Is it awkward as your hand grips the rifle and you fire or when manipulating the hammer? I guess with the low recoil it probably doesn't slam backwards into the webbing of your hand.

I have a Winchester 30-30 (top eject) and am considering getting a peep to improve accuracy.
It's 40yrs old in 'as new' condition, so mounting one similar to yours would mean drilling a second hole which I'm reluctant to do, if it may end up annoying me so much that I remove it anyway.

I'm also considering a receiver mounted peep as an alternative, but the slightly longer sight radius of the fold down tang mounted peep is attractive.
I was tossing around the idea of the tang fold down for longer shots, and having a fold down (think Ruger style) forward of the receiver in place of the semi-buckhorn for close shots.
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Re: Finally bought a Winchester....

Post by bladeracer » 10 Jul 2018, 7:49 pm

Gamerancher wrote:Try 4gr of AP-70 behind a 115 to 120gr cast bullet.
I highly doubt Bladeracer had one with a "hex" barrel, never been one made, only made with round or octagonal.


Sorry, yes octagonal :-)
Hex is very much more difficult to make.
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Re: Finally bought a Winchester....

Post by Gamerancher » 10 Jul 2018, 8:22 pm

Yeah, fly out Friday for 5 weeks. Will be in the tower running all of the Small-bore and High-power scoped matches as well as all of the Lever-gun events.
Then it will be my turn, shooting the .22BPCR and both the scoped and iron BPCR.

As for the .32-20 loads:
You can up it to 4.5 grains,(slowly), but if the chamber is slightly loose, it will split necks, especially starline brass. ( All brass is thin necked, so go easy when sizing, it is very easy to bugger cases, ask me how I know. :oops:)
Yours being relined should be pristine, cast /sized bullets at .001" overbore is a good place to start.
Good P.C silhouette round, very mild report/recoil and very good accuracy.
The '92 is J.M Brownings scaled down version of his 1886 Winchester, ( arguably the best lever-gun ever built ), there is a good reason why they are still being made/copied 126 years later, they work. ( Although some of the cheap copies leave a lot to be desired - don't blame poor quality on the original design. )
Also, a lot of originals suffer from neglect or just plain over-use. All original chamberings were loaded with black-powder and corrosive primers, so internal corrosion is very common and with it, sub-standard accuracy.
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Re: Finally bought a Winchester....

Post by in2anity » 10 Jul 2018, 9:05 pm

Gamerancher wrote:You can up it to 4.5 grains,(slowly), but if the chamber is slightly loose, it will split necks, especially starline brass. ( All brass is thin necked, so go easy when sizing, it is very easy to bugger cases, ask me how I know. :oops:)


Had my first causalty only last night - going too fast with the expander damaged the neck, so down to 99 cases already :( Slow and steady seems the go. Dunno whether you were following a while back Gamerancher - but I also picked up a 2006 built, short-run, 20" JM 1894CB in 32H&R. I much prefer working with 32H&R brass: straight-walled (carbide), thicker than the 32-20. And it is insanely accurate benched with optics - easily sub 1" at 50m, but that shorter sight radius and the williams receiver forward of the hammer makes it more challenging to use (particularly offhand). You were bang on with your 24" barrel/tang recommendation - really does make silhouette shooting that much easier. Meanwhile, my Chiappa 1892 clone is a piece of junk - although this could partly be to do with over-use (from cowboy action I'm guessing).
Last edited by in2anity on 11 Jul 2018, 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Finally bought a Winchester....

Post by Gamerancher » 11 Jul 2018, 8:19 am

I have seen far too many rifles ruined by "slicking" by some bozo for use in cowboy action, wouldn't go near one that has been used in that sport.
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Re: Finally bought a Winchester....

Post by in2anity » 11 Jul 2018, 9:17 am

Gamerancher wrote:I have seen far too many rifles ruined by "slicking" by some bozo for use in cowboy action, wouldn't go near one that has been used in that sport.

Funny yu say that - the chiappa was originally listed as having been "slicked" - should have rung alarm bells then and there. Oh well live and learn.
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Re: Finally bought a Winchester....

Post by Gwion » 11 Jul 2018, 3:49 pm

Gamerancher wrote:I have seen far too many rifles ruined by "slicking" by some bozo for use in cowboy action, wouldn't go near one that has been used in that sport.


What thge hell is 'slicking' and how does it wreck a gun???
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Re: Finally bought a Winchester....

Post by in2anity » 11 Jul 2018, 4:53 pm

Gwion wrote:
Gamerancher wrote:I have seen far too many rifles ruined by "slicking" by some bozo for use in cowboy action, wouldn't go near one that has been used in that sport.


What thge hell is 'slicking' and how does it wreck a gun???


They aggressively polish up the internals and soften the springs to increase cyclic rate - this comes at the price of an overall looser action - good for rapid fire, close range, not so good for preservation of the rifle :(
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Re: Finally bought a Winchester....

Post by bladeracer » 12 Jul 2018, 1:14 am

Gwion wrote:
Gamerancher wrote:I have seen far too many rifles ruined by "slicking" by some bozo for use in cowboy action, wouldn't go near one that has been used in that sport.


What thge hell is 'slicking' and how does it wreck a gun???


Taking all the friction and tension out of it so the action flops about like it's knackered. Can also include short-throw kits, lightened springs and lightened parts. The Uberti 66 I bought from a CA shooter, but they hadn't even cleaned it, let alone modified it. As it's supposed to be a display sport of the "cowboy" era I can't see why such ridiculous modifications have ever been allowed into it.
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Re: Finally bought a Winchester....

Post by Blutius Maximus » 02 Aug 2018, 1:58 pm

Jäger wrote:in2anity, how have you found that fold down peep? In particular, when firing and when carrying.
Is it awkward as your hand grips the rifle and you fire or when manipulating the hammer? I guess with the low recoil it probably doesn't slam backwards into the webbing of your hand.

I have a Winchester 30-30 (top eject) and am considering getting a peep to improve accuracy.
It's 40yrs old in 'as new' condition, so mounting one similar to yours would mean drilling a second hole which I'm reluctant to do if it may end up annoying me so much that I remove it anyway.

I'm also considering a receiver mounted peep as an alternative, but the slightly longer sight radius of the fold down tang mounted peep is attractive.
I was tossing around the idea of the tang fold down for longer shots, and having a fold down (think Ruger style) forward of the receiver in place of the semi-buckhorn for close shots.


I'll just bump this post. When I originally made it, I was still needing mod approval for posts so it was hidden for a few days.
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Re: Finally bought a Winchester....

Post by Wm.Traynor » 02 Aug 2018, 7:08 pm

Having the peep close to the eye gives greater depth of focus, making it easier to see the fore sight and target clearly. For this reason a tang mounted sight is better suited to target shooting as long as the aperture is around 0.040" or 1mm.
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Re: Finally bought a Winchester....

Post by in2anity » 02 Aug 2018, 8:23 pm

Jäger wrote:
Jäger wrote:in2anity, how have you found that fold down peep? In particular, when firing and when carrying.
Is it awkward as your hand grips the rifle and you fire or when manipulating the hammer? I guess with the low recoil it probably doesn't slam backwards into the webbing of your hand.

I have a Winchester 30-30 (top eject) and am considering getting a peep to improve accuracy.
It's 40yrs old in 'as new' condition, so mounting one similar to yours would mean drilling a second hole which I'm reluctant to do if it may end up annoying me so much that I remove it anyway.

I'm also considering a receiver mounted peep as an alternative, but the slightly longer sight radius of the fold down tang mounted peep is attractive.
I was tossing around the idea of the tang fold down for longer shots, and having a fold down (think Ruger style) forward of the receiver in place of the semi-buckhorn for close shots.


I'll just bump this post. When I originally made it, I was still needing mod approval for posts so it was hidden for a few days.


Having it close to the eye means you can get away with a tiny arpeture. Like you said a tang also maximizes your sight radius - it's definately the preferred choice for target shooting. It has its drawbacks however - a recoiling rifle can see it bump into your eye/glasses knocking it forward. You can place your head further back from the aperture, but then you have to swap in a bigger aperture to let some more light through, sacrificing accuracy. Furthermore it’s indeed a little more awkward to hold and in fact (as you suggested) a recoiling rifle can damage the skin on your thumb placed perpendicular across the grip behind it (after repeated recoiling shots over a match or two). This can be trained out, you just have to explicitly remember to place your thumb further back - this is hard to remember if you shoot a variety of sub disciplines where you're chopping and changing rifles. again you may have to unnaturally train against your natural weld to get your head back.

Also with respect to adjusting the tang - a tang like a marbles isn’t marked, meaning if you forget where your elevation is, you can lose track of your zero. in contrast, the Williams or Lyman peep have that little ladder indicator on the side so you can visually see where your elevation is. The gaugeless tang is especially risky for rainbow calibers which demand a fair amount of adjustment. An MVA tang can help with this, but they are bulky, hard to get and not to mention pricy.

In summary, I love a tang on the light-recoiling 32-20 but dislike it on something bigger like a 44mag or 45/70. It’s a bit awkward to carry but I tend to grip a hunting rifle halfway down in one hand anyway, so not a big issue. Getting back to your 30/30. I've never had a combination of dovetail and tang so I couldn't comment about your idea. the 30/30 boot isn't so bad - and for the odd hunting shot even shooting a modern fast flat pill I guarantee you’ll be able to shoot it very accurately with a tang. Is it a 24”?

Hope this helps mate
Last edited by in2anity on 03 Aug 2018, 9:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Finally bought a Winchester....

Post by bigpete » 02 Aug 2018, 9:21 pm

Funnily enough,there's a round barrel version I'm lusting after locally.....
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Re: Finally bought a Winchester....

Post by in2anity » 02 Aug 2018, 9:29 pm

bigpete wrote:Funnily enough,there's a round barrel version I'm lusting after locally.....

32-20?
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Re: Finally bought a Winchester....

Post by bigpete » 02 Aug 2018, 10:16 pm

Yep
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