Howa help

[Cal-ApeR]

Hi all, long long time reader but 1st time posting.

Before you read on, this question has kind of been asked before but albeit a little differently. Here goes.

About 9 years ago I bought new Howa 1500 in .243. I knew what I was buying at the time. Ugliest, crappiest stock I've used, I believe it was a plastic injected mold. Horrible to handle but it was used as a bush bashing rifle so I didn't mind. Secondly, the trigger.... Horrible. Loads of creep. Despite this, it shot slightly better then MOA.

At the same time I had a Tikka T3 in 243 that had a great trigger and would result shoot .5" all day. I sold the Howa in the end for almost what I paid so all was good.

I'm now in the market for a new deer rifle in 308 but could possibly be swayed to a creedmore. My question is this. Have the feel of the Hogue stock improved the Howa? Is the trigger actually better? Are they hit and miss? For me out of the box accuracy is what I'm after. I see a cerokated sporter version that guarantees MOA FOR $769 with adjustable trigger. They also appear the have a cheaper blued sporter for around $570(no mention of MOA or trigger). Other than cerokated and painted stock, are they any different, is the upgrade to an MOA RIFLE just marketing? Cerokated is appealing as I'll likely be working the terrain with this one but either way it will be looked after at the end of the day.

If anyone had knowledge on these points, I'd really appreciate hearing from you. FWIW my mate bought a cerokated sporter last year (not sure if it guaranteed MOA). The group's he managed blew me away.

Cheers

[SCJ429]

The Hogue stock is practical for hunting, you will still need to bed it. You will not be happy with the trigger either. If you are lucky it will shoot Moa. The best thing is that they are a good designed action at a very good price point.

If you are happy with your 243 Tikka, would you consider a sibling?

[sungazer]

The triggers are pretty good, however I did buy a new set of springs to lighten it just a touch. I only used one of the two springs and adjusted it for a two stage trigger. The stocks well they are pretty crappy but they would be good for a knock around rifle. I believe all Howas come with a MOA guarantee. The 2 I have both meet that the 6.5C easily the 223 just prob 0.75 maybe I am still to find the sweet load for it.
The 6.5 doesn't meet all the deer requirements in Vic silly as that is these days.

[Cal-ApeR]

I would consider another 243 but I've recently sold my 308 so want another one! I do love the flexibility in the 243 though.

I noticed the Howa USA website mentions they are all MOA guaranteed but the OSA (Australian importer) website makes no mention of it. Do we get the rejects or have they not changed the Aussie website lately? I noticed Ozzie reviews couldn't get very good groups with the ultralight.

You guys think I'd be right in buying the cheaper model or pay the extra $200 for the cerakote and "guarantee"? As mentioned, the cerakote is appealing but $769 nearly puts me in the next level rifle bracket, i.e Tikka, Sauer, Mauser M18 and so on. I'm fussy, I don't like poor shooting rifles. MOA is a must in my book, even for hunting.

[bigfellascott]

I would consider another 243 but I've recently sold my 308 so want another one! I do love the flexibility in the 243 though.

I noticed the Howa USA website mentions they are all MOA guaranteed but the OSA (Australian importer) website makes no mention of it. Do we get the rejects or have they not changed the Aussie website lately? I noticed Ozzie reviews couldn't get very good groups with the ultralight.

You guys think I'd be right in buying the cheaper model or pay the extra $200 for the cerakote and "guarantee"? As mentioned, the cerakote is appealing but $769 nearly puts me in the next level rifle bracket, i.e Tikka, Sauer, Mauser M18 and so on. I'm fussy, I don't like poor shooting rifles. MOA is a must in my book, even for hunting.

I've got a Tikka 308 that can't manage anything near MOA (it's around 1.5") but it still kills stuff fine No doubt I could get it too shoot better with handloads and some sanding of the barrel channel to open it up (I think that's where the problem is with it) I've also modded the trigger as the factory offering wasn't quite as good as my Howa triggers once they were worked (I like my trigger crisp and lightish). Glen Coughlan does my triggers on the Howas - as for rifles you are looking at, take your pick they will all do the job.

[Cal-ApeR]

Interesting Bigfellascott. My Tikka trigger was perfect straight out of the box. No 2 firearms are the same though i guess.

I've just been on my LGS website, they don't make it easy. I hadn't even considered a varmint barrel but looking at the weight of the howa varmint, it comes in a just over 3kg. This surely can't be right? My tikka hunter weighs that. If that's a correct weight, i think i might sway to the varmint barrel in 24". Might make for a fun build later on if i get tired of the hogue stock. I guess the only way to know is to go and handle them and see what i prefer. Who knows, i'll probably still walk away with the Cerakoted sporter, love Cerakote!

Will be sure to post here once the tax man gives me my cash and i receive my new toy.

[bigfellascott]

Interesting Bigfellascott. My Tikka trigger was perfect straight out of the box. No 2 firearms are the same though i guess.

I've just been on my LGS website, they don't make it easy. I hadn't even considered a varmint barrel but looking at the weight of the howa varmint, it comes in a just over 3kg. This surely can't be right? My tikka hunter weighs that. If that's a correct weight, i think i might sway to the varmint barrel in 24". Might make for a fun build later on if i get tired of the hogue stock. I guess the only way to know is to go and handle them and see what i prefer. Who knows, i'll probably still walk away with the Cerakoted sporter, love Cerakote!

Will be sure to post here once the tax man gives me my cash and i receive my new toy.

Don;t get me wrong mate the tikka trigger was ok, quite useable but I'm used to a lighter trigger pull and the only way to achieve it was to grind down the little grub screw so I could get more adjustment into it, not sure if I took a ring of the spring too (can't remember now) anyway I don't mind doing a bit of tinkering to make things suit my particular needs.

That figure for the HB howa is if it's the Model 1500 Howa, they are up around the 4kg mark from memory, not sure what he HB Mini is though, haven't really had a look at them to be honest (got enough bangsticks now without needing more).

Anyway mate good luck whatever way you go.

[Blutius Maximus]

Just got my Howa HB 308 out of the safe and weighed it.
At the moment it doesn't have scope or scope mounts on it, but it does have a bipod on it.
Comes in at 4.25Kg

[Cal-ApeR]

Thanks Jager, that's definitely different to the website. Appreciate the accurate feedback. Let me know how it shoots once you put it through its paces.

[Blutius Maximus]

Yep. Stay tuned.
I've already done some testing with various factory ammo, with a slipping scope and deforming picatinny rail that were pretty good.
I'll give more details in the next few days. (I'd do it now, but my team was playing and I've had a few, so want to make sure I give accurate info).
I haven't run reloads through it yet. Given my scope & mount problems, I want to get out to the range in the next couple of weeks (weather permitting) for more testing, albeit at this stage with more factory (but different) ammo.
Mine is a Howa Heavy Barrel 20" in a Hogue Stock .308WIN 1:10 twist for info.

If you want the weight bare (without scope without bipod), let me know.

[Blutius Maximus]

Oh. And I'll try and be balanced.
There's nothing worse, and useless, as someone only giving the best group they've ever shot with a rifle, as though that is how the rifle performs every time.

[Cal-ApeR]

Yeah you're not wrong. Averages are better then one superb group.

[in2anity]

Ahhh MOA - the three word measure that so many of us hang so much importance on... but if you try and distille that statement down a little further, you realize alone it really is an abstract concept... some of the most memorable hunters I’ve ever known were content with “minute of cup saucer” - that’s all you need to plug em where it counts... just sayin, no hard feelings

[Cal-ApeR]

Haha, no hard feelings at all. It's a money thing at the end of the day. Like buying German made over Chinese. You want to know your paying for something that is proven. Not wrong, MOA sucks us in but it's a good measure. Cup saucer would work everyday of the week for most of us.

[Barrettmr]

I have a 308 ultralite and it will shoot 1.25 inches with the load that I have, My shots don't really go over 150 yards, absolutely nothing has walked away from that. It is a pencil thin barrel, you won't get good groups from it. It is just a light hunting rifle. I used the spring from a whitco window spur and got the trigger down to about 1.5 pounds.
It works for me.

[bigfellascott]

I have a 308 ultralite and it will shoot 1.25 inches with the load that I have, My shots don't really go over 150 yards, absolutely nothing has walked away from that. It is a pencil thin barrel, you won't get good groups from it. It is just a light hunting rifle. I used the spring from a whitco window spur and got the trigger down to about 1.5 pounds.
It works for me.

Spot on mate, as I say to people you don't shoot groups on fur - the important thing is that the first shot is close to being on the money with good consistency

[Blutius Maximus]

I'll try to make this brief but informative enough to give you an idea of my experience and where I'm at now.

Short version. Howa are a very good rifle. The hogue stock is "grippy" and should be good even if wet. It's too soft in the front, so you have to be mindful you don't press it against the barrel.

Recently, I found my scope was moving in the rings, and also, once I removed the scope to check everything, also found the pic rail was deforming, even though the 308 wouldn't be considered heavy recoil. I'm mentioning this as it probably had an effect on the results I'm going to talk about. Interpret it as you wish.

What follows is from a couple of outings.

I bought some OSA ammo. It was the 135gr Sierra hollow point. I also bought Hornady 150gr SST SPF for my hunting round.
Shooting was on a cheap crappy rest that I found very uncomfortable.

Initially, I was doing Howa's break in procedure, so cleaning between each shot, then every couple of shots etc.
Groups were 1.2" to 1.5" at 100. Once that crap was out of the way and I sat down, my first two groups, OSA 0.72" and SSTSPF 0.9" @100

A string shooting just the OSA 135gr - 1.7 0.7 0.4 0.8 1.1 1.5 (inches at 100yd)

A string shooting OSA 135gr - 0.75 0.95 1.4 0.85 2.4 0.85 0.63 1.2 1.7 1.0 (inches at 100yd)
During that outing, I put a target out at 250yds. OSA 135gr 0.66 0.9 1.5 1.0 1.6 (These are MOA, not inches)
Still 250yds, the SSTSPF 0.75 MOA

Finally, back at 100 and the OSA 135gr, this string in inches, 2.5 1.2 1.7 1.0 1.0 0.9 1.3 1.2 1.2 0.4

A bit over the place. That's what led me to check the scope and mounts. I removed the smallest group & largest group I've shot from this rifle during that period.

In summary, I think they're a good rifle. I think mine will be consistent now that I have a better scope mount.
Next I'll be shooting from a bipod and rear rest.
I bought other factory ammo to test with this too, including some Federal GMM 168gr and some Vital Shok ammo. I also bought bought the OSA ammo with the 165gr Sierra GK's which should perform better in this rifle.
If I get time before my next outing, I'll also handload some ammo with the various projectiles I have in 308.

Oh, it has the HACT trigger. I'd prefer to be able to set it a bit lighter, but it's not bad. In pulling my rifle apart, I've set the trigger as light as it will go, so I'll see on the next range day how it is.

[Barrettmr]

What rifle? Sporter, varmint, or ultralite?

[in2anity]

Just curious, did you let it cool fully between groups?

[bigfellascott]

What rifle? Sporter, varmint, or ultralite?

I think it's a varmint going by one of his previous posts

[Cal-ApeR]

Cheers Jager. Good little write up. I too have had a scope moving in the mounts. Very frustrating. I've got to lap the rings and see how it goes.

Surprisingly I got this response from OSA the other day.

"Thankyou for your enquiry.



Effective only for any rifles purchased from the 1st of January 2017 have a Howa sub moa Guarantee.

However terms and conditions apply."

I guess it's a line thrown around between all manufacturers now aday.

[straightshooter]

Oh. And I'll try and be balanced.
There's nothing worse, and useless, as someone only giving the best group they've ever shot with a rifle, as though that is how the rifle performs every time.

How true.

Yeah you're not wrong. Averages are better then one superb group.

Not quite right.
Ignoring outliers, how do you predict when a below average shot will be fired?
You can't.
So for hunting purposes you need an appreciation of your reliable grouping ability. That can only come from shooting 20 or more shot groups.
That will inform you far better than averaging four x five shot groups.
Too many people confuse the scoring system used in the benchrest game as a true measure of absolute accuracy.

[Cal-ApeR]

Straightshooter, I understand what you're saying. Probably misinterpreted what I meant. I was coming at it from the perspective of Joe Blogs shooting a one off"fluke" group that he will never shoot again from a rifle and then touting that as his rifle is a .3" shooter. I'd rather someone such as Jager has done to give an honest multi group appraisal. I didn't mean to blur the lines with bench rest.

[sungazer]

What Straight shooter is referring to is the more about statistics. You need a large sample size before you can say with a confidence level the result. That confidence level is proportional to the number of results used. Ideally 32 results are needed but 20 results is most often used. Every shot in that 20 must be taken into account.

[Blutius Maximus]

Just curious, did you let it cool fully between groups?

I do touch the barrel from time to time to make sure it's not heating up too much.

I was slow shooting. Take a shot. Eject. Sit back, look around for 20 or 30 seconds, a minute, whatever, take another shot.
Poor technique for shooting groups, I was really just having a bit of a shoot and making some once fired brass.

Now that I'll develop some loads, when it comes to shooting a group, I'll be maintaining cheek weld for the entire group for each charge weight, then have cool down. Repeat.

What rifle? Sporter, varmint, or ultralite?

I think it's a varmint going by one of his previous posts

Yup. in two posts earlier I'd mentioned it was a Heavy Barrel.

[Blutius Maximus]

Cheers Jager. Good little write up. I too have had a scope moving in the mounts. Very frustrating. I've got to lap the rings and see how it goes.

Surprisingly I got this response from OSA the other day.

"Thankyou for your enquiry.



Effective only for any rifles purchased from the 1st of January 2017 have a Howa sub moa Guarantee.

However terms and conditions apply."

I guess it's a line thrown around between all manufacturers now aday.

With the slipping scope, have you got the screws torqued enough?
With mine, I've ditched the plasticine pic rail I had and the mounts I was using and bought a Dednutz mount that I'm yet to put on.

It's easy for makers to give those moa guarantee's.
They normally say moa guarantee with premium ammo etc.
Try enough ammo enough times with the gun in a vice and you'd struggle NOT to get at least one group under a minute.

[in2anity]

Just curious, did you let it cool fully between groups?

I do touch the barrel from time to time to make sure it's not heating up too much.

I was slow shooting. Take a shot. Eject. Sit back, look around for 20 or 30 seconds, a minute, whatever, take another shot.
Poor technique for shooting groups, I was really just having a bit of a shoot and making some once fired brass.

Now that I'll develop some loads, when it comes to shooting a group, I'll be maintaining cheek weld for the entire group for each charge weight, then have cool down. Repeat.

What rifle? Sporter, varmint, or ultralite?

I think it's a varmint going by one of his previous posts

Yup. in two posts earlier I'd mentioned it was a Heavy Barrel.

Mate all things considered (and that you're shootin factory), I think your groups aren't too shabby. Prolly would want to take it a little further/handload if you were shooting F or benchrest - outside of that go shoot! If you do any quantity of target shooting in a sitting, she's gonna turn into a soldering iron anyway, at which point accuracy will be defined by the truly "hot-barrel" average accuracy, which in most cases will be over a minute of angle...

[bigfellascott]

I still haven't bothered doing any load testing on some handloads I made up for the 204 Howa (I ran out of time) so ended up testing them on fur and so far I don't think I've missed much at all with em to be honest, headshots on bunnies out around the 260m mark have resulted in fairly consistent results (more hits than misses) shooting off the bonnet with a sandbag, so I figured not much point in worrying about doing any further testing, they kill s**t and that's all they have to do at the end of the day for me.

I also own a Tikka 308 that doesn't shoot the factory loads I bought for it very well (around 1.5" 3 shot groups) but it doesn't particularly worry me as I only use it for pigs and deer and they ain't exactly small targets and I figure so long as the 1st shot is close to the mark all is good as that should do the job in dropping em.

Personally I think people get way to worried about groups when it comes to hunting rifles, fair enough if you shoot targets competitively or whatever but for hunting I think we place a little too much emphasis on group size especially when it comes to shooting things the size of a 44gal drum or bigger, my way of looking at it is so long as the first shot is fairly consistent in where you want it too hit that is pretty much all that's needed 99% of the time, as I say you don't shoot groups on fur so why get all caught up and worried about tiny little groups, most people can't replicate tiny little groups whilst out hunting as the ranges aren't set out at specific distances, we generally don't have fancy rests etc, we don't have bugger all time to focus on wind and breathing etc etc, it's usually spot something,, get into a quick position to shoot it and bang!

Just my 2 bobs worth and a different view of things compared to most

[in2anity]

I still haven't bothered doing any load testing on some handloads I made up for the 204 Howa (I ran out of time) so ended up testing them on fur and so far I don't think I've missed much at all with em to be honest, headshots on bunnies out around the 260m mark have resulted in fairly consistent results (more hits than misses) shooting off the bonnet with a sandbag, so I figured not much point in worrying about doing any further testing, they kill s**t and that's all they have to do at the end of the day for me.

I also own a Tikka 308 that doesn't shoot the factory loads I bought for it very well (around 1.5" 3 shot groups) but it doesn't particularly worry me as I only use it for pigs and deer and they ain't exactly small targets and I figure so long as the 1st shot is close to the mark all is good as that should do the job in dropping em.

Personally I think people get way to worried about groups when it comes to hunting rifles, fair enough if you shoot targets competitively or whatever but for hunting I think we place a little too much emphasis on group size especially when it comes to shooting things the size of a 44gal drum or bigger, my way of looking at it is so long as the first shot is fairly consistent in where you want it too hit that is pretty much all that's needed 99% of the time, as I say you don't shoot groups on fur so why get all caught up and worried about tiny little groups, most people can't replicate tiny little groups whilst out hunting as the ranges aren't set out at specific distances, we generally don't have fancy rests etc, we don't have bugger all time to focus on wind and breathing etc etc, it's usually spot something,, get into a quick position to shoot it and bang!

Just my 2 bobs worth and a different view of things compared to most

Yup well said BF - even in the target shooting realm (besides supported disciplines), whilst inherent accuracy plays somewhat of a role, by far the biggest factor is pointing the gun in the wrong direction whilst pulling the trigger...

[Gaznazdiak]

I still haven't bothered doing any load testing on some handloads I made up for the 204 Howa (I ran out of time) so ended up testing them on fur and so far I don't think I've missed much at all with em to be honest, headshots on bunnies out around the 260m mark have resulted in fairly consistent results (more hits than misses) shooting off the bonnet with a sandbag, so I figured not much point in worrying about doing any further testing, they kill s**t and that's all they have to do at the end of the day for me.

I also own a Tikka 308 that doesn't shoot the factory loads I bought for it very well (around 1.5" 3 shot groups) but it doesn't particularly worry me as I only use it for pigs and deer and they ain't exactly small targets and I figure so long as the 1st shot is close to the mark all is good as that should do the job in dropping em.

Personally I think people get way to worried about groups when it comes to hunting rifles, fair enough if you shoot targets competitively or whatever but for hunting I think we place a little too much emphasis on group size especially when it comes to shooting things the size of a 44gal drum or bigger, my way of looking at it is so long as the first shot is fairly consistent in where you want it too hit that is pretty much all that's needed 99% of the time, as I say you don't shoot groups on fur so why get all caught up and worried about tiny little groups, most people can't replicate tiny little groups whilst out hunting as the ranges aren't set out at specific distances, we generally don't have fancy rests etc, we don't have bugger all time to focus on wind and breathing etc etc, it's usually spot something,, get into a quick position to shoot it and bang!

Just my 2 bobs worth and a different view of things compared to most

G'day Scott,

Spot on mate.

I was driving myself nuts worrying about getting perfect groups and wasting piles of good ammo trying to work out how to fix the "problem".

I was boring my non-shooting sister about it one day and she removed my anxiety with the same common sense.
She asked me how many feral 10c pieces were running around the paddock, when I asked her WTF she was on about, she asked if I hit the rabbits and foxes etc. I said yes I did, and she told me to stop pissing and moaning and be satisfied with that.
A bottle of 06H lasts me a lot longer now and I haven't been frustrated since.
Well, not about shooting anyway.