Howa help

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Re: Howa help

Post by in2anity » 01 Aug 2018, 9:28 pm

Just curious, did you let it cool fully between groups?
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Howa help

Post by bigfellascott » 02 Aug 2018, 6:25 am

Barrettmr wrote:What rifle? Sporter, varmint, or ultralite?


I think it's a varmint going by one of his previous posts :thumbsup:
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Re: Howa help

Post by Cal-ApeR » 02 Aug 2018, 6:51 am

Cheers Jager. Good little write up. I too have had a scope moving in the mounts. Very frustrating. I've got to lap the rings and see how it goes.

Surprisingly I got this response from OSA the other day.

"Thankyou for your enquiry.



Effective only for any rifles purchased from the 1st of January 2017 have a Howa sub moa Guarantee.

However terms and conditions apply."

I guess it's a line thrown around between all manufacturers now aday.
I'd rather be hunting
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Re: Howa help

Post by straightshooter » 02 Aug 2018, 6:51 am

Jäger wrote:Oh. And I'll try and be balanced.
There's nothing worse, and useless, as someone only giving the best group they've ever shot with a rifle, as though that is how the rifle performs every time.


How true.

Cal-ApeR wrote:Yeah you're not wrong. Averages are better then one superb group.


Not quite right.
Ignoring outliers, how do you predict when a below average shot will be fired?
You can't.
So for hunting purposes you need an appreciation of your reliable grouping ability. That can only come from shooting 20 or more shot groups.
That will inform you far better than averaging four x five shot groups.
Too many people confuse the scoring system used in the benchrest game as a true measure of absolute accuracy.
"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about."
"There is no expedient to which a man will not resort to avoid the real labor of thinking." Sir Joshua Reynolds
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Re: Howa help

Post by Cal-ApeR » 02 Aug 2018, 7:06 am

Straightshooter, I understand what you're saying. Probably misinterpreted what I meant. I was coming at it from the perspective of Joe Blogs shooting a one off"fluke" group that he will never shoot again from a rifle and then touting that as his rifle is a .3" shooter. I'd rather someone such as Jager has done to give an honest multi group appraisal. I didn't mean to blur the lines with bench rest.
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Re: Howa help

Post by sungazer » 02 Aug 2018, 9:34 am

What Straight shooter is referring to is the more about statistics. You need a large sample size before you can say with a confidence level the result. That confidence level is proportional to the number of results used. Ideally 32 results are needed but 20 results is most often used. Every shot in that 20 must be taken into account.
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Re: Howa help

Post by Blutius Maximus » 02 Aug 2018, 9:50 am

in2anity wrote:Just curious, did you let it cool fully between groups?


I do touch the barrel from time to time to make sure it's not heating up too much.

I was slow shooting. Take a shot. Eject. Sit back, look around for 20 or 30 seconds, a minute, whatever, take another shot.
Poor technique for shooting groups, I was really just having a bit of a shoot and making some once fired brass.

Now that I'll develop some loads, when it comes to shooting a group, I'll be maintaining cheek weld for the entire group for each charge weight, then have cool down. Repeat.

bigfellascott wrote:
Barrettmr wrote:What rifle? Sporter, varmint, or ultralite?

I think it's a varmint going by one of his previous posts :thumbsup:


Yup. in two posts earlier I'd mentioned it was a Heavy Barrel.
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Re: Howa help

Post by Blutius Maximus » 02 Aug 2018, 10:02 am

Cal-ApeR wrote:Cheers Jager. Good little write up. I too have had a scope moving in the mounts. Very frustrating. I've got to lap the rings and see how it goes.

Surprisingly I got this response from OSA the other day.

"Thankyou for your enquiry.



Effective only for any rifles purchased from the 1st of January 2017 have a Howa sub moa Guarantee.

However terms and conditions apply."

I guess it's a line thrown around between all manufacturers now aday.


With the slipping scope, have you got the screws torqued enough?
With mine, I've ditched the plasticine pic rail I had and the mounts I was using and bought a Dednutz mount that I'm yet to put on.

It's easy for makers to give those moa guarantee's.
They normally say moa guarantee with premium ammo etc.
Try enough ammo enough times with the gun in a vice and you'd struggle NOT to get at least one group under a minute.
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Re: Howa help

Post by in2anity » 02 Aug 2018, 10:21 am

Jäger wrote:
in2anity wrote:Just curious, did you let it cool fully between groups?


I do touch the barrel from time to time to make sure it's not heating up too much.

I was slow shooting. Take a shot. Eject. Sit back, look around for 20 or 30 seconds, a minute, whatever, take another shot.
Poor technique for shooting groups, I was really just having a bit of a shoot and making some once fired brass.

Now that I'll develop some loads, when it comes to shooting a group, I'll be maintaining cheek weld for the entire group for each charge weight, then have cool down. Repeat.

bigfellascott wrote:
Barrettmr wrote:What rifle? Sporter, varmint, or ultralite?

I think it's a varmint going by one of his previous posts :thumbsup:


Yup. in two posts earlier I'd mentioned it was a Heavy Barrel.


Mate all things considered (and that you're shootin factory), I think your groups aren't too shabby. Prolly would want to take it a little further/handload if you were shooting F or benchrest - outside of that go shoot! If you do any quantity of target shooting in a sitting, she's gonna turn into a soldering iron anyway, at which point accuracy will be defined by the truly "hot-barrel" average accuracy, which in most cases will be over a minute of angle...
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Howa help

Post by bigfellascott » 02 Aug 2018, 12:10 pm

I still haven't bothered doing any load testing on some handloads I made up for the 204 Howa (I ran out of time) so ended up testing them on fur and so far I don't think I've missed much at all with em to be honest, headshots on bunnies out around the 260m mark have resulted in fairly consistent results (more hits than misses) shooting off the bonnet with a sandbag, so I figured not much point in worrying about doing any further testing, they kill s**t and that's all they have to do at the end of the day for me. :D

I also own a Tikka 308 that doesn't shoot the factory loads I bought for it very well (around 1.5" 3 shot groups) but it doesn't particularly worry me as I only use it for pigs and deer and they ain't exactly small targets and I figure so long as the 1st shot is close to the mark all is good as that should do the job in dropping em.

Personally I think people get way to worried about groups when it comes to hunting rifles, fair enough if you shoot targets competitively or whatever but for hunting I think we place a little too much emphasis on group size especially when it comes to shooting things the size of a 44gal drum or bigger, my way of looking at it is so long as the first shot is fairly consistent in where you want it too hit that is pretty much all that's needed 99% of the time, as I say you don't shoot groups on fur so why get all caught up and worried about tiny little groups, most people can't replicate tiny little groups whilst out hunting as the ranges aren't set out at specific distances, we generally don't have fancy rests etc, we don't have bugger all time to focus on wind and breathing etc etc, it's usually spot something,, get into a quick position to shoot it and bang! :unknown:

Just my 2 bobs worth and a different view of things compared to most :drinks:
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Re: Howa help

Post by in2anity » 02 Aug 2018, 12:31 pm

bigfellascott wrote:I still haven't bothered doing any load testing on some handloads I made up for the 204 Howa (I ran out of time) so ended up testing them on fur and so far I don't think I've missed much at all with em to be honest, headshots on bunnies out around the 260m mark have resulted in fairly consistent results (more hits than misses) shooting off the bonnet with a sandbag, so I figured not much point in worrying about doing any further testing, they kill s**t and that's all they have to do at the end of the day for me. :D

I also own a Tikka 308 that doesn't shoot the factory loads I bought for it very well (around 1.5" 3 shot groups) but it doesn't particularly worry me as I only use it for pigs and deer and they ain't exactly small targets and I figure so long as the 1st shot is close to the mark all is good as that should do the job in dropping em.

Personally I think people get way to worried about groups when it comes to hunting rifles, fair enough if you shoot targets competitively or whatever but for hunting I think we place a little too much emphasis on group size especially when it comes to shooting things the size of a 44gal drum or bigger, my way of looking at it is so long as the first shot is fairly consistent in where you want it too hit that is pretty much all that's needed 99% of the time, as I say you don't shoot groups on fur so why get all caught up and worried about tiny little groups, most people can't replicate tiny little groups whilst out hunting as the ranges aren't set out at specific distances, we generally don't have fancy rests etc, we don't have bugger all time to focus on wind and breathing etc etc, it's usually spot something,, get into a quick position to shoot it and bang! :unknown:

Just my 2 bobs worth and a different view of things compared to most :drinks:


Yup well said BF - even in the target shooting realm (besides supported disciplines), whilst inherent accuracy plays somewhat of a role, by far the biggest factor is pointing the gun in the wrong direction whilst pulling the trigger...
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Howa help

Post by Gaznazdiak » 02 Aug 2018, 1:31 pm

bigfellascott wrote:I still haven't bothered doing any load testing on some handloads I made up for the 204 Howa (I ran out of time) so ended up testing them on fur and so far I don't think I've missed much at all with em to be honest, headshots on bunnies out around the 260m mark have resulted in fairly consistent results (more hits than misses) shooting off the bonnet with a sandbag, so I figured not much point in worrying about doing any further testing, they kill s**t and that's all they have to do at the end of the day for me. :D

I also own a Tikka 308 that doesn't shoot the factory loads I bought for it very well (around 1.5" 3 shot groups) but it doesn't particularly worry me as I only use it for pigs and deer and they ain't exactly small targets and I figure so long as the 1st shot is close to the mark all is good as that should do the job in dropping em.

Personally I think people get way to worried about groups when it comes to hunting rifles, fair enough if you shoot targets competitively or whatever but for hunting I think we place a little too much emphasis on group size especially when it comes to shooting things the size of a 44gal drum or bigger, my way of looking at it is so long as the first shot is fairly consistent in where you want it too hit that is pretty much all that's needed 99% of the time, as I say you don't shoot groups on fur so why get all caught up and worried about tiny little groups, most people can't replicate tiny little groups whilst out hunting as the ranges aren't set out at specific distances, we generally don't have fancy rests etc, we don't have bugger all time to focus on wind and breathing etc etc, it's usually spot something,, get into a quick position to shoot it and bang! :unknown:

Just my 2 bobs worth and a different view of things compared to most :drinks:


G'day Scott,

Spot on mate.

I was driving myself nuts worrying about getting perfect groups and wasting piles of good ammo trying to work out how to fix the "problem".

I was boring my non-shooting sister about it one day and she removed my anxiety with the same common sense.
She asked me how many feral 10c pieces were running around the paddock, when I asked her WTF she was on about, she asked if I hit the rabbits and foxes etc. I said yes I did, and she told me to stop pissing and moaning and be satisfied with that.
A bottle of 06H lasts me a lot longer now and I haven't been frustrated since.
Well, not about shooting anyway.
:drinks:
fideles usque ad mortem
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Re: Howa help

Post by Blutius Maximus » 02 Aug 2018, 2:40 pm

I can only speak for myself and you're right BFS, it doesn't matter so much for hunting and as long as your rifle is minute of deer accurate for deer, that's fine.
I also like the precision aspect of it though. I want to see how much I can get out of a rifle and out of myself.
For some it's the challenge the matters. The thrill of the chase, so to speak. At the end of the day, does it matter? No. As long as you enjoy yourself, it's money and time well spent.

Spending a day at the range every now and again is enjoyable for me too. It'd want to be, it's a long drive from Melb's East to Eagle Park for me.

Am I going to do that sort of thing to the same extent with my Winchester94 30-30? Nope, but I'll still do something to get the best out of that one, for what I want it to do, too.
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Re: Howa help

Post by bigfellascott » 02 Aug 2018, 3:13 pm

Jäger wrote:I can only speak for myself and you're right BFS, it doesn't matter so much for hunting and as long as your rifle is minute of deer accurate for deer, that's fine.
I also like the precision aspect of it though. I want to see how much I can get out of a rifle and out of myself.
For some it's the challenge the matters. The thrill of the chase, so to speak. At the end of the day, does it matter? No. As long as you enjoy yourself, it's money and time well spent.

Spending a day at the range every now and again is enjoyable for me too. It'd want to be, it's a long drive from Melb's East to Eagle Park for me.

Am I going to do that sort of thing to the same extent with my Winchester94 30-30? Nope, but I'll still do something to get the best out of that one, for what I want it to do, too.


Yeah that's it mate, do what works for you but don't worry about this 1/2 moa bs it's really not that important for most hunting apps, might be important if you are trying to take bunny heads off at .5km but the reality most don't even come close to those sorts of ranges when it comes to normal hunting apps, don't spend your time wasting ammo and barrel life just get out and use em for their intended purpose, leave the barrel burning to the paper punchers I say. :thumbsup:
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Re: Howa help

Post by Cal-ApeR » 02 Aug 2018, 9:14 pm

Jäger wrote:I can only speak for myself and you're right BFS, it doesn't matter so much for hunting and as long as your rifle is minute of deer accurate for deer, that's fine.
I also like the precision aspect of it though. I want to see how much I can get out of a rifle and out of myself.
For some it's the challenge the matters. The thrill of the chase, so to speak. At the end of the day, does it matter? No. As long as you enjoy yourself, it's money and time well spent.

Spending a day at the range every now and again is enjoyable for me too. It'd want to be, it's a long drive from Melb's East to Eagle Park for me.

Am I going to do that sort of thing to the same extent with my Winchester94 30-30? Nope, but I'll still do something to get the best out of that one, for what I want it to do, too.


Exactly my thoughts. Probably be a different story if I was on a farm but I don't get the chance to hunt as often. The range is the next best thing. I will admit though I try not to do as much bench anymore and try and focus on free hand shooting. Each to their own but I do agree, you certainly don't need sub MOA to knock over ferals.
I'd rather be hunting
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