What would it take for a safety to fail

[rainwalker]

G'day.

Stating the obvious, a safety mechanism stops a rifle from firing, but beyond that I don't really understand the mechanics of what's actually happening in the mechanism.

What's locked or whatever...

Question is what would it take for a safety to fail.

Could a really hard drop cause it?

As a ridiculous example which no one would do... If you clubbed a rock with your rifle or tossed it off a roof or something stupid, could regular blunt force do it?

[veep]

Not quite your question, but they sort of did this on Mythbusters with copying the scene from the movie True Lies when she drops the Uzi down the stairs and it shoots the bad guys.

They set it up to roll down the stairs loaded and with the safety off and it wouldn't fire.

[sooey]

If I remember right...

The sear holds the firing pin in place and when you pull the trigger it releases the sear.

The safety then holds the trigger in place so you can't release the sear.

Someone chime in if I have that wrong...

[petemacsydney]

I don't know much about the mechanics, but I was using a .22 recently that actually fired the round when u took it off safety (it was not a "design feature"). I always said I would never trust a safety, and that little old but well kept .22 solidified it for life!

No bad outcomes though, as I had it on target, per sop..

If I want it safe, i remove all the rounds and bolt.

[reddog]

When I was doing my firearms licence the instructor was pretty adament about never trusting a safety, empty chamber unless you are going to pull the trigger.

While putting a Lowey trigger kit in my CZ .22 if you use to light a spring (there are 4 in the kit) the gun will go off with the safety on, gun cocked big thump on the butt on the bench and it fires but this is with about a 6 ounze trigger pull which is to light anyway.

As the instructor says you treat every gun as loaded anyway so empty chambers are the way to go

[Monty]

Not the best picture but you can see an example here...

Ruger LC6 Trigger

ruger-lc6-trigger.jpg (15.38 KiB) Viewed 7139 times

This is the Ruger LC6 trigger.

See directly behind the trigger spring there is a cylinder with 1/4 cut out? That's the safety mechanism.

When it's 'safe' it's in a position so the flat of the cylinder is blocking the trigger from pulling. When it's 'hot' it's in a positions so the 1/4 cut-away is above the trigger and not blocking it.

When it's 'safe' it's a pretty solid mechanism for preventing a discharge, but nothings perfect... Things wear out, steel flexes, metal wears down and corners get rounded off leading to a loose safety and so on...

It's not the same for every action, but there's an idea of how one works for you.

[Apollo]

Blocking the trigger will not necessarily stop a firearm from discharging.

In general the Firing Pin is held by the Trigger Sear. If enough force through impact is applied the Sear can drop and release the Firing Pin and the firearm will discharge. Some people polish, grind and/or adjust sear engagement which can render a firearm dangerous.

[SendIt]

Question is what would it take for a safety to fail.

Could a really hard drop cause it?

As a ridiculous example which no one would do... If you clubbed a rock with your rifle or tossed it off a roof or something stupid, could regular blunt force do it?

The safety mechanism (not the safety switch) is always inside the stock/action where you couldn't knock it directly. You'd have to smash the stock to knock it like you're talking about.

Vibration though, a jolt at the wrong angle, you never know...

Even with the safety on, you've still got a cocked spring and a firing pin pointed at a primer.

The best safety's an empty chamber or an open bolt.

[Rippah]

There is a video on youtube along these lines where a guy from the Aus military (I think? could be wrong) is testing this with a Steyr AUG.

He basically puts a dummy round in, loads it, then bashes like a club against crates and chucks in in the air to free fall and all sorts of abuse in an attempt to get it to fire.

Doesn't happen though.

[Dirtdart89]

A few years ago while I was in the army a mate of mine had a rifle that was brand new, despite having an armourer look at it, it would fire with the safety engaged. The f88 styer also has a drop safety built in to avoid drops from discharging or disengaging the safety. I'm not sure if other rifles have something similar...

[jays]

A few years ago while I was in the army a mate of mine had a rifle that was brand new, despite having an armourer look at it, it would fire with the safety engaged.

And he couldn't work out the problem?

Not say that I could figure it out, but then I'm not an army base armourer.

Bit of a worry getting handed a rifle for the day by that bloke

[Dirtdart89]

Haha nah, I never found out what happened to it. I assume they cut it up and recycled all the parts without serial numbers. But in general I don't rate the F88 styer very highly, as a combat rifle it has poor sights, rusts at a slight rise in humidity is dangerous to use left handed if set up for a right handed firer, and for new trainees I witnessed several people melt skin to the barrel due to a lack of experience with weapons but also there is no heat covers like on the m16 or pretty much every other combat rifle. So kinda dangerous for new shooters especially with the gas port right by the foregrip...

[SendIt]

Pity you couldn't de-mil and take as a souvenir from your army days.

[rainwalker]

The safety mechanism (not the safety switch) is always inside the stock/action where you couldn't knock it directly. You'd have to smash the stock to knock it like you're talking about.

Vibration though, a jolt at the wrong angle, you never know...

Even with the safety on, you've still got a cocked spring and a firing pin pointed at a primer.

The best safety's an empty chamber or an open bolt.

I'm with you on the open bolt, that's what I do when walking round anyway rather than use the safety.

Thanks for the replies guys.

Thanks for the picture too Monty, heaps helpful.

[Dirtdart89]

Haha nah I wasn't interested in em, do have a shed full of crap that I couldn't sell to the lads before I left though haha.

[Bourt]

Out of curiosity Dirtdart, in you're army days did you have "your" rifle which you were issued with then required, or do they all just go on the rack and everyone gets given whatever at random?

[Dirtdart89]

Varies from regiment to regiment. My unit tried to do the one man gets the same rifle but due to postings/long courses/discharges/weapon servicing/manning changes... Pretty much every time I went bush I had a different rifle. Was a bit easier for me though was one of the few with the 40mm qual. Bearing in mind I wasn't infantry, just the lowly combat engineer who just happens to always be with the infantry, often in front of them too. Not that they like to admit it.

[redrum]

A lowly human shield

[Dirtdart89]

Yeah pretty much looking for mines with our feet and such. Also the magic black sticks (mine detectors) made us pretty fancy (high value) sniper targets.

[Farmjer]

I thought they had mine clearing vehicles these days?

Like a tank with an armoured front and revolving metal flail at the front that detonates the mines ahead of the vehicle?

f*** walking through a minefield with a detector in hand

[harlow]

Like a tank with an armoured front and revolving metal flail at the front that detonates the mines ahead of the vehicle?

LOL. Forget needing infantry, just roll out one of those things into the enemy trench

[Dirtdart89]

Yeah flails have been around since about ww2 and we do have newer vehicles with ground penetrating radar and such but the Australian army is a bunch of tight arses and we don't use them as much due to things breaking off when they explode.

[beepar]

the Australian army is a bunch of tight arses and we don't use them as much due to things breaking off when they explode.

I've got the answer...

BIGGER FLAILS!

[Dirtdart89]

Yeah unfortunately the Taliban are a lot smarter than we give em credit for they build the pressure plate or trigger up in front of the main explosive so when the flail or whatever hits it, the main charge will be pretty much right under the vehicle. I'm not sure if they have tried extending the flails or rollers but they would probably figure it out after a few days.

[Monty]

There's another clearer which is basically a plough if I remember right. The name escapes me, but it's a UK built one I'm pretty sure.

Probably doesn't put on the same show as the flail contraption... A bit simpler, basically a thick enough armoured front-end that it can sweep up everything in it's path detonations and all.

Any former-army Brits here?

[Dirtdart89]

I know the type, they stuck a plough on a tank either an abrahms or a leopard. I don't recall can only use those in minefields, not so much roads.

[pucker]

I think we're talking about this...



Called the "Trojan Engineer Armoured Tank Vehicle".

[Dirtdart89]

Yup that's the one.

[VICHunter]

That thing looks bad ass.

Got the excavator arm on it and everything.

[Westy]

Yeah unfortunately the Taliban are a lot smarter than we give em credit for they build the pressure plate or trigger up in front of the main explosive so when the flail or whatever hits it, the main charge will be pretty much right under the vehicle. I'm not sure if they have tried extending the flails or rollers but they would probably figure it out after a few days.

It took them 10 years to find a little old Grey Haired man riding a donkey there smart alright!!!! As for the safety if you have one in the tube and hope that it won't fail then I'm staying in the ute your on your own !!LOL