Short barrel, largish caliber

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Re: Short barrel, largish caliber

Post by Urastus » 08 Dec 2018, 10:41 am

marksman wrote:but the 6mm dasher absolutely kills the crudmoor in every way :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :drinks:

if you want pure precision do not buy off the rack, build it :thumbsup:
good luck with it and I hope it turns out what you expect it to be ;) :drinks:


I'm an "off the rack" kind of guy :) I'm beginning to think your advice may be a little biased toward the 6mm :) That's awesome that you have something you like so much. Those heavy barrelled howas look like great value - I'll probably end up with a long barrel too, but that's sweet if I know I'm doing the best I can for accuracy within a budget. It's been a learning process.
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Re: Short barrel, largish caliber

Post by bigpete » 08 Dec 2018, 11:09 am

Lol,I gotta admit,when I think of largeish calibre, i don't think of anything under .358.....
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Re: Short barrel, largish caliber

Post by Gamerancher » 08 Dec 2018, 11:20 am

True, I'm about the same. Just answering ol' mates questions, he set the calibers.
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Re: Short barrel, largish caliber

Post by marksman » 08 Dec 2018, 11:27 am

mate I actually own 2 x 6.5's :drinks:

this is my 6.5x284 mauser 98

Image

this is how it shoots

Image

and a 6.5x55 mauser 98

Image

I am about to rebarrel the 6.5x55 to 6.5x284 because it is such a great round
some carry on it's a barrel burner but if I can get 1500 really precise shots and fill the freezer a few times its paid for itself :thumbsup:
I do own a 6mm dasher as well and it does kill the creedmoor, heaps more records with the dasher

you will like the creedmoor but just because it is 6'5 dont mean it will shoot :thumbsup:
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Re: Short barrel, largish caliber

Post by Urastus » 08 Dec 2018, 12:02 pm

Marksman - I like your 6.5 x 284 (the barrel) and the scope - adjustable objective? Another cartridge I haven't heard of :) That's the sort of thing I want. I might need a more vertical grip - I've been playing with my .22, just shouldering it. I did consider the grendel early on, but I think the CM is really as small as I can go for deer; or at least what I'm comfortable with. A lot of people shoot wallaby here - I don't want to. I don't think their numbers are what they were.
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Re: Short barrel, largish caliber

Post by SCJ429 » 08 Dec 2018, 3:22 pm

You will find 6mm is where it is at for accuracy shooting, the only place where other calibers are competitive is PRS shooting or where 6mm are not allowed.

If you want to dip your toe into mid to long range accuracy shooting there is an easy way. Buy a Tikka Varmint in 223 with a 1:8 twist barrel, a second hand one is fine. Bolt a 3 inch forend adapter to the Tupperware stock and get a front rest to suit. Get some 80 Bergers and Lapua brass. Fill the case with 2208 and then marvel at your new found shooting ability out to 1000 metres.

This would mean that you need a separate hunting rifle, get the $600 Howa Marksman pointed out earlier.
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Re: Short barrel, largish caliber

Post by bladeracer » 08 Dec 2018, 5:30 pm

SCJ429 wrote:You will find 6mm is where it is at for accuracy shooting, the only place where other calibers are competitive is PRS shooting or where 6mm are not allowed.


Oh dear, now he's going to be looking at 6mm Creedmoor as well :-)
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Re: Short barrel, largish caliber

Post by Urastus » 08 Dec 2018, 5:31 pm

SCJ429 wrote:You will find 6mm is where it is at for accuracy shooting, the only place where other calibers are competitive is PRS shooting or where 6mm are not allowed.

If you want to dip your toe into mid to long range accuracy shooting there is an easy way. Buy a Tikka Varmint in 223 with a 1:8 twist barrel, a second hand one is fine. Bolt a 3 inch forend adapter to the Tupperware stock and get a front rest to suit. Get some 80 Bergers and Lapua brass. Fill the case with 2208 and then marvel at your new found shooting ability out to 1000 metres.

This would mean that you need a separate hunting rifle, get the $600 Howa Marksman pointed out earlier.


Thanks; it's a balance. It was either 6.5 cm or 7mm-08 because of deer. I didn't want to spread myself too thin with too much gear and not enough time to stay familiar with each. I'll do as well as I can at the range with whatever I get. As many others have said, I'm sure the rifle won't be my limitation at the range :) I imagine I'll pick up most of my skill with the .22.
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Re: Short barrel, largish caliber

Post by bladeracer » 08 Dec 2018, 5:41 pm

Urastus wrote:I imagine I'll pick up most of my skill with the .22.


Absolutely spot on, nothing gives you more valuable learning experience than a few cases of .22LR downrange.
You can actually sit at the bench and shoot hundreds of rounds trying a variety of shooting positions, holds on the rifle, rests, aiming points, snap shooting and so on...all for just a few bucks a session, bugger all noise, recoil or blast, and an inordinate amount of damned good fun!
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Re: Short barrel, largish caliber

Post by Urastus » 08 Dec 2018, 5:56 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Oh dear, now he's going to be looking at 6mm Creedmoor as well :-)


:D :D
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Re: Short barrel, largish caliber

Post by Stix » 08 Dec 2018, 6:04 pm

Yea alright Blade...seriously...thats enough of that carry on...!!!

Desperately passionate & addicted shooters wallowing in copious amounts of trigger withdrawal while stuck in the burbs dont need to be hearing how much fun shooting half a brick of .22 is...ok... :violin:

Now im crying...!!! :cry: :cry: :cry:

Are you happy now...!!! :unknown:

Look what you've done...!!! :cry:
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Re: Short barrel, largish caliber

Post by bladeracer » 08 Dec 2018, 6:11 pm

Stix wrote:Yea alright Blade...seriously...thats enough of that carry on...!!!

Desperately passionate & addicted shooters wallowing in copious amounts of trigger withdrawal while stuck in the burbs dont need to be hearing how much fun shooting half a brick of .22 is...ok... :violin:

Now im crying...!!! :cry: :cry: :cry:

Are you happy now...!!! :unknown:

Look what you've done...!!! :cry:


I do feel for you Stix, and all the other shooters that are coming into a sport that has very rapidly dwindling outlets for the fun that can be gained from it.

I am not one for grandiose ideals, but if I had the wherewithal, I would absolutely love to buy a few hundred acres between Melbourne and Sydney and just leave the gate open for shooters to go and enjoy themselves any time they wanted to. I have enough faith in shooters as a whole that they would treat it with the required respect, and that they would self-govern to keep away anybody that didn't.

Frankly, this is the sort of thing I would expect SSAA to be doing with our membership fees, creating places for us to shoot!
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Re: Short barrel, largish caliber

Post by Stix » 08 Dec 2018, 6:27 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Stix wrote:Yea alright Blade...seriously...thats enough of that carry on...!!!

Desperately passionate & addicted shooters wallowing in copious amounts of trigger withdrawal while stuck in the burbs dont need to be hearing how much fun shooting half a brick of .22 is...ok... :violin:

Now im crying...!!! :cry: :cry: :cry:

Are you happy now...!!! :unknown:

Look what you've done...!!! :cry:


I do feel for you Stix, and all the other shooters that are coming into a sport that has very rapidly dwindling outlets for the fun that can be gained from it.

I am not one for grandiose ideals, but if I had the wherewithal, I would absolutely love to buy a few hundred acres between Melbourne and Sydney and just leave the gate open for shooters to go and enjoy themselves any time they wanted to. I have enough faith in shooters as a whole that they would treat it with the required respect, and that they would self-govern to keep away anybody that didn't.

[color=#FF0000]Frankly, this is the sort of thing I would expect SSAA to be doing with our membership fees, creating places for us to shoot[/color]!


You would think so...but they will argue they are spending the money on setting up & maintaining ranges...!!

And while i admire your sentiment re shooters self monitoring it...it would just be like fisheries---always the greedy ones that care for themselves & would just ruin it...see them everywhere...
Taking undersize callop from the river..take 4 three inch long yabbies cos thats all they got....undersized bluey's off the jetties...undersize reds n whiting out of the gulfs...
So there would be the selfish ones who would shoot out a warren of ALL bunnies, & kill ALL deer & goats when numbers were down just so they get them & no one else does...

A select bunch of likeminded non-selfish compromising blokes together in a block could be the way
:drinks: ...
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Re: Short barrel, largish caliber

Post by TassieTiger » 08 Dec 2018, 6:38 pm

in2anity wrote:II dunno, personally I'd be steering clear of 260 simply due to ammo/projectile availability. The other three - take your pick...


This is a confusing statement...projectile availability between 260 and 6.5 cm?? Hi
And Brass is easier to find for 260 than cm - including lapua in my neighbourhood.
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Re: Short barrel, largish caliber

Post by SCJ429 » 08 Dec 2018, 6:39 pm

You are going to end up with a 223 at some point, everyone does so why fight it.

When you want to go hunting T-Rex, swing past my place and I will loan you something.
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Re: Short barrel, largish caliber

Post by bladeracer » 08 Dec 2018, 6:45 pm

Stix wrote:You would think so...but they will argue they are spending the money on setting up & maintaining ranges...!!

And while i admire your sentiment re shooters self monitoring it...it would just be like fisheries---always the greedy ones that care for themselves & would just ruin it...see them everywhere...
Taking undersize callop from the river..take 4 three inch long yabbies cos thats all they got....undersized bluey's off the jetties...undersize reds n whiting out of the gulfs...
So there would be the selfish ones who would shoot out a warren of ALL bunnies, & kill ALL deer & goats when numbers were down just so they get them & no one else does...

A select bunch of likeminded non-selfish compromising blokes together in a block could be the way
:drinks: ...


Yep, except they use their ranges as a means of taking our money and keeping tight rein on our options.

I wasn't referring to hunting, just shooting, I will have shot all the game myself before opening it up to the public ;-)

I have suggested numerous times that shooters need to get together and buy blocks together just for shooting on. Not everybody can afford to have a few hundred acres sitting idle, but a group of fifty shooters just might consider $10k apiece to be a good investment to always have somewhere available to go shooting and camping. Also a viable option for farmers that are struggling to earn a living or trying to recover from fires or floods.
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Re: Short barrel, largish caliber

Post by in2anity » 08 Dec 2018, 7:30 pm

TassieTiger wrote:
in2anity wrote:II dunno, personally I'd be steering clear of 260 simply due to ammo/projectile availability. The other three - take your pick...


This is a confusing statement...projectile availability between 260 and 6.5 cm?? Hi
And Brass is easier to find for 260 than cm - including lapua in my neighbourhood.


Look TBH I don't shoot a 260 or a CM - so I'm not in a position to ague the market nuances of brass/projectile availability between these two. But the vibe I get from everywhere I shoot is the CM is becoming ever increasingly popular, whereas I don't often hear of people selling the 260 these days... especially down the track, that's gotta stand for something right? (market economy and all that) I suppose my statement was anecdotal - if the 260 is truly cheaper and more convenient to run than the CM I stand corrected :thumbsup:
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Short barrel, largish caliber

Post by SCJ429 » 08 Dec 2018, 7:52 pm

In PRS shooting a survey in 2016 of the top 100 shooters, 20 used a 6.5x47 Lapua and 11 used a 6x47 Lapua. Nine used a 6.5 Creedmoor and six used the 6mm Creedmoor. Only two used a 260.

Interestingly six of the top ten used 6mm and two of the top ten used 6.5mm.

Fashion changes quickly in this style of shooting so this data is nearly two years old and could have changes.
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Re: Short barrel, largish caliber

Post by SCJ429 » 08 Dec 2018, 8:03 pm

The advantage the Creedmoor has over the 260 is a 30 degree shoulder compared to 20. If that concerned you,one could run an Ackley reamer up your 260.

If you run Lapua brass, the Creedmoor also utilises a small primer pocket. This is also available to the 260 shooter if they neck down 308 Palma brass.
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Re: Short barrel, largish caliber

Post by Stix » 08 Dec 2018, 8:10 pm

Can i butt in & ask what the benefit of using a small primer in such size cases as these...? :unknown: Maybe sothing to do with burn or igition rate...?? :unknown:
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Re: Short barrel, largish caliber

Post by SCJ429 » 08 Dec 2018, 9:05 pm

The small primer pocket and flash hole seem to be part of the reason the PPC and 6BR are so accurate. They tried it in the 308 and the jury is still out as to wether it makes a difference. The one thing it does is leave a lot of brass around the primer pocket which stops the pocket loosening up as much when shooting high pressure loads.
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Re: Short barrel, largish caliber

Post by TassieTiger » 08 Dec 2018, 9:11 pm

[
Last edited by TassieTiger on 08 Dec 2018, 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Short barrel, largish caliber

Post by TassieTiger » 08 Dec 2018, 9:14 pm

TassieTiger wrote:
in2anity wrote:
TassieTiger wrote:
in2anity wrote:II dunno, personally I'd be steering clear of 260 simply due to ammo/projectile availability. The other three - take your pick...


This is a confusing statement...projectile availability between 260 and 6.5 cm?? Hi
And Brass is easier to find for 260 than cm - including lapua in my neighbourhood.


Look TBH I don't shoot a 260 or a CM - so I'm not in a position to ague the market nuances of brass/projectile availability between these two. But the vibe I get from everywhere I shoot is the CM is becoming ever increasingly popular, whereas I don't often hear of people selling the 260 these days... especially down the track, that's gotta stand for something right? (market economy and all that) I suppose my statement was anecdotal - if the 260 is truly cheaper and more convenient to run than the CM I stand corrected :thumbsup:


I get your trying to promote a Calibre you obviously shoot, but 264” projectiles are the same 6.5s ? And you kinda were arguing market nuances by saying 260 projectiles are hard to get.
Maybe you should have written that it was a vibe...lol
but for at least where I am located, high end 6.5 CM factory rounds are insanely difficult to obtain.
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Re: Short barrel, largish caliber

Post by TassieTiger » 08 Dec 2018, 9:18 pm

I think the USA MILITRY has now adopted the 6.5mm creedmore as a base round for their precision shooters - if that’s correct, then I’d expect some pretty special development to come along in a few years around...
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Re: Short barrel, largish caliber

Post by Urastus » 08 Dec 2018, 10:27 pm

SCJ429 wrote:You are going to end up with a 223 at some point, everyone does so why fight it.

When you want to go hunting T-Rex, swing past my place and I will loan you something.


Yep. Initially I was going to get the .22, then a .223, based on cost of ammo and a very popular calibre. That was before I found it was not really up to deer hunting :) A big learning issue; you guys have so much accumulated knowledge. Anyway, I think the 6.5CM should cover my needs / desires. I have other interests (downfalls :) ), mountain bikes and motorbikes. And I want a handgun or two - revolver or auto? :D :D 9mm or .357? :D :D No, kidding, not real questions....yet :D And I'll shoot T-Rex's puny little hands off :D
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Re: Short barrel, largish caliber

Post by sungazer » 08 Dec 2018, 11:07 pm

SCJ429 wrote:The small primer pocket and flash hole seem to be part of the reason the PPC and 6BR are so accurate. They tried it in the 308 and the jury is still out as to whether it makes a difference. The one thing it does is leave a lot of brass around the primer pocket which stops the pocket loosening up as much when shooting high pressure loads.


The small rifle Primer is widely used if not nearly exclusively in the 308. It has advantages of a better ignition having a smaller ES and SD . Also therre is next to no pressure problems ever encountered.

The 6.5 Creed Lapua brass is good. I tried necking down a 308 and its not worth the trouble. If any of the other cartridges need this give them a miss.
Also use Bench rest Primers no matter what even in Magnum cases ADI powders do not need magnum primers and the BR primers are much better.
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Re: Short barrel, largish caliber

Post by SCJ429 » 09 Dec 2018, 9:00 am

The 6.5x47 Lapua is an example of a case designed with a small primer pocket and small flash hole, it was a longer 6mmBR for the guy who didn't want to fireform a Dasher or BRX. Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor brass is large primer but Lapua designed their brass with the small primer. It is hard to say if you get better results because of this or because Lapua make better quality brass.

I find that I do not always get the best results with CCI BR4 or BR2. In a 308 I have lowered the SD by using Magnum primers and in a 223 I have had some good results using 450s.
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Re: Short barrel, largish caliber

Post by Urastus » 09 Dec 2018, 1:07 pm

Some related and relevant info I found re barrel length and velocity for the 6.5 CM (now that I've narrowed the calibre down). This was with Hornady 140gn A-MAX match ammo: 26" = 2860fps, 22" = 2805fps. 22" looks OK; I can live with that hit :) http://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/07/1 ... -velocity/
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Re: Short barrel, largish caliber

Post by marksman » 09 Dec 2018, 4:58 pm

you can use that for a guide if you like but you may find your barrel will shoot faster or slower, but you wont know till you run it in and it settles down
better to go with accuracy and precision than speed for targets or for hunting as long as you go for shot placement where the animal will bang flop
fallow are not hard to put down but I still like a brain shot so we eat the whole animal with minimal waste
sounds like you are getting exited :drinks: :drinks:
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Re: Short barrel, largish caliber

Post by TassieTiger » 09 Dec 2018, 5:09 pm

Exactly agree...my barrel is 2.5 inches shy of OEM and apparently shoots faster than it did with the extra inches with certain loads...now as an appreciably well endowed male, I can appreciate both the short and fast and the long and slow but it all gets a bit confusing after a while...:-)
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