Help me to choose best rifle in .223

[bladeracer]

Almost got my licence and ready to buy my first rifle. Will be used 99% for varmint control/hunting. This most probably will be my first, the only one, and last rifle, so I want to find and buy the absolute best within my price. Not planning to sell it or buy another in the next many many years.

My requirements are:
- .223
- Wood or Laminate stock
- stainless steel barrel (preferable, but can live with blued if the gun is exceptional otherwise)
- must be reliable, with no known issues.
- must pe very accurate out of the box.
- must last a lifetime

I'm comfortable with spending anywhere between $1500 and $3500 just for the rifle. Just want to buy once, buy right, don't care much about money at this stage.

Initially I was going to just buy Sako 85 and be done with it, but deeper research revealed a known and well-documented ejection issues with some of their rifles that Beretta doesn't consider a warranty issue. I understand that it's an exceptional rifle otherwise, but personally don't want to gamble.

If not Sako 85, what else would you consider?

If you're just starting out I would suggest a different direction, borrow or buy several different designs and see if something particularly suits you, then buy the highest-quality in a similar design. You can buy something that has a fantastic reputation, only to discover it's just no fun to shoot.

[solarpak]

Buy a standard howa m1500 (not the mini action) and save yourself a bundle.....they shoot as good as any rifle with 55 grain loads. (with the 1 in 12 twist)

Yes the sako problem is certainly true - i parted ways with my sako 85 in 223 for exactly that reason....

If you want something swanky one of the Tikka T3x's will serve you well - but again they are around the $1500 mark....
A howa will set you back half that and shoot as well as anything - and last you a long time...
CK

[TassieTiger]

All good Tassie. ..im crap at conveying what i mean...hell ive become accustomed to the taste of boot leather around women...

i really wasnt having a go mate, & glad (hope) you can see that.. .

Not at all mate - on re reading what I’d written, I’m glad a few ppl called me on it. I’d made a mistake in trying to convey what I meant to try and say and it read hypocritical and wrong. As you’ve said - I often put my foot in it, but usually - I have good intent, I’m just tripping over getting there lol

I know many would disagree, but If there were a simple and convenient way for it to happen and if others were on board, I’d lend/post any of my rifles to quite a few of the long standing members on here for a week or two, if it would help them make a better and informed decision about a future purchase...I know that you and many others on here, would respect mine as their own and look after them - use them as to understand shortcomings / positives and then return in same condition - but alas with dealers having to be the middle men (charging handling) and postage costs, it’s not really viable...
Cheers.

[SCJ429]

Buy a standard howa m1500 (not the mini action) and save yourself a bundle.....they shoot as good as any rifle with 55 grain loads. (with the 1 in 12 twist)
CK

I have not seen any outstanding results when guys use a Howa, the barrels are OK but don't come close to what I have seen from Tikka or Sako barrels. What size groups do you get from your Howa at 100 metres?

Was your gunsmith unable to fix the extractor on your Sako? What was causing the problem?

[Islander7]

After spending whole day today by reading hundreds of pages of firearm forums and watching many youtube videos I shortlisted my options to the following:

- Ruger 77 Hawkeye .223 ~$1600
- Anschutz 1771 .223 ~$3100 (yes expensive, but not by much in comparison to Sako85)
- and seriously considering Winchester Model 70 in 22-250 (as they don't make it in .223) ~$2000, however concerned, isn't it too much, as I ideally I want my rabbits to remain in one whole piece.

- Had to complitely cross out Tikka, due to factors mentioned earlier.
- Had to eliminate Sako85, as Sako hunter laminated stainless (the model I like the most) isn't available until next June (just spoke to my dealer today) + possible ejection issues.
- temporarily crossed out Kimber M84, as there are mixed reviews on American forums + there is a detailed video by Ozzie Reviews, showing shocking inaccuracy, will do more research.


All opinions are welcome, you are also welsome to talk me out of my options or through in something completely new. I'm open to any suggestion, however it should be good rifle out of box, unfortunatelly I don't have time to customize it later, change stocks, barrels etc etc. Also I've checked Howas at the dealer today and I don't like them, no offence to Howa owners, they are probably great shooters, but to me they look cheap'ish, I'm not trying to save money here, it's vice versa )) just don't tell my wife

[Islander7]

Was your gunsmith unable to fix the extractor on your Sako? What was causing the problem?

[/quote]

Maybe solarpak will answer in detail later, but apparantly this issue is not isolated, there are many many reports and discussions of the issue on multiple forums. Most discouraging factor for me personally is that Beretta doesn't admit there's an issue, and doesn't accept it as the warranty issue.

Noone exactly knows what the cause is, but looks like this
https://youtu.be/hAlCcC45n50

[TassieTiger]

I don’t think you can go wrong with any of your shortlisted.
Given your budget and accuracy wants - have you given thought to optics as yet? Because if you end up with a rifle that you absolutely love but the optics are not up to the task, your going to become very frustrated and very disappointed...

[Gaznazdiak]

Buy a standard howa m1500 (not the mini action) and save yourself a bundle.....they shoot as good as any rifle with 55 grain loads. (with the 1 in 12 twist)
CK

I have not seen any outstanding results when guys use a Howa, the barrels are OK but don't come close to what I have seen from Tikka or Sako barrels. What size groups do you get from your Howa at 100 metres?

Was your gunsmith unable to fix the extractor on your Sako? What was causing the problem?

I can't speak for solarpak's Howa, but mine does OK.
The target is 3 shots at 100m

Webp.net-resizeimage (.jpg (344.88 KiB) Viewed 6519 times

I couldn't understand the high flyer until I noticed that the wind had moved the end of one arm of the clothesline into the trajectory but not in view in the scope, below.

Webp.net-resizeimage (14).jpg (323.28 KiB) Viewed 6519 times

Nothing at all wrong with a Howa.

How much better than that could I expect it to get for the extra $2K?

[SCJ429]

Sako extractors work so well that they retro fit them to Remington bolts. Most of the issue lie with the extractor directing the case upwards where it hits the scope, this can be corrected. I agree this is not something most people want to have to deal with on a new rifle. It is interesting that no military client has this issue with the TRG.

[Islander7]

I don’t think you can go wrong with any of your shortlisted.
Given your budget and accuracy wants - have you given thought to optics as yet? Because if you end up with a rifle that you absolutely love but the optics are not up to the task, your going to become very frustrated and very disappointed...

I had a quick look, but no, I haven't thought much of which scope to get yet. Happy to pay around $1k for it (or can easily stretch to $1.5k if needed), but not willing to pay more than that. Will have to do some research obviously.

[bigfellascott]

I dont have much experience with "modern" rifles apart from Tikka's & Sako's....so im in no position to comment on experience with other brands of new rifles.

In my opinion, out of those 2 options, & given your budget & intended use, it would be Sako hands down.

I do a lot of--or should i say, 99% of my hunting (shooting fur) is done from a car, driving around late afternoon & with a spotlight..(foxes & bunnies).& for this i mostly use a Tikka T3.

Let me tell you, not being able to top load with the Tikka is becoming painful.
I didnt think it would be a problem, but the amount of times i chamber a round upon pulling up on a fox or titchy bunny, & then have to unload the firearm & remove the magazine to put round back in mag is an annoyance.
Then there is the occasional time you drop a round from all the magazine fiddling & it slips down the side of the seat, &/or you've had the door open & you're not sure if it landed in or out of the car & end up spending time looking for it...
It may sound like im exagerating, but im sure those that do a lot of this type of shooting will vouch for what im saying.

With the Sako, it would be straight back in the top, hold the round down & slide the bolt forward for a safe empty chamber

So top load through ejection port is, in my opinion, a very important feature for a varmint rifle if budget comfortably allows.

Aside from that other potential suggestions i could offer are...
i know a guy who has a Kimber (only a sporter barrel for a walk about hunting rifle, where you may want a heavy barrel)...with a Swarovski Z6i 3-18 a top...
Not only does it look the goods, but it delivers too--its a VERY nice outfit to handle.

And, what about Cooper rifles...?
Does one of them fit within the budget...?

As has also been suggested, there is a custom build--you could buy a second hand rifle & drop it straight to a smith for re-barreling..

Let us know what you end up with & how it performs...

That's why I love my Howa's, I drop a round in when I'm ready, no need to stuff around putting em in a mag if I don't want too.

[bigfellascott]

Buy a standard howa m1500 (not the mini action) and save yourself a bundle.....they shoot as good as any rifle with 55 grain loads. (with the 1 in 12 twist)
CK

I have not seen any outstanding results when guys use a Howa, the barrels are OK but don't come close to what I have seen from Tikka or Sako barrels. What size groups do you get from your Howa at 100 metres?

Was your gunsmith unable to fix the extractor on your Sako? What was causing the problem?

All my Howa's shoot like s**t

222 @ 200m off a bipod and homemade sandbag


The 204 @ 140m shooting off a camp table and bipod and sandbag


Got a pic somewhere of my 22.250 Howa @ 200m with 4 in a half a 5c piece from memory.

Went shooting with a mate quite a few years ago now and we set up a greens triangle sign and used that to shoot at @280m from memory anyway we had a couple of shots each and my mates sako with custom Maddco barrel shot around 1.2" I guess and mine lobbed 2 right next to each other almost touching, my mate went quite after that and that was shooting off the back of a ute tray using my sleeping bag as a rest

[brett1868]

I'm with the Bigfella, Howa all the way. I've got Sako's, Weatherby's and several others and none are any better or worse then the Howa 1500 Mini Action. Buy a case of OSA 55gr Blitz kings and smash 10c sized groups all day and night.

[bigrich]

i got a question for all the howa guys , what differences are there between the howa and weatherby vanguard ? howa make the vangaurd for weatherby don't they ? just trying to learn some more info

[brett1868]

i got a question for all the howa guys , what differences are there between the howa and weatherby vanguard ? howa make the vangaurd for weatherby don't they ? just trying to learn some more info

The Weatherby Vanguard series is assembled at Weatherby, using barrelled actions supplied by Howa that arrive by the pallet. Weatherby then fit their own stocks, perform Q/A on the rifle before boxing and shipping. I don't recall if Howa made any actual engineering changes to the barreled actions for Weatherby but if you really want to know I can contact Tim in their sales department and ask if he relocated with the factory as they recently relocated to Wyoming from Commiefornia as its a less retarded state for firearms laws.

The Mk.V Series is still a Weatherby rifle albeit the actual manufacturing of the actions / barrels / stocks has been outsourced. All custom work along with Cerakoting is completed in house by the Weatherby staff.

[Diamond Jim]

Buy a standard howa m1500 (not the mini action) and save yourself a bundle.....they shoot as good as any rifle with 55 grain loads. (with the 1 in 12 twist)
CK

I have not seen any outstanding results when guys use a Howa, the barrels are OK but don't come close to what I have seen from Tikka or Sako barrels. What size groups do you get from your Howa at 100 metres?

Was your gunsmith unable to fix the extractor on your Sako? What was causing the problem?

My brother consistently shoots 1/2 inch groups at 100m with his Howa .223 Varmint off a front and rear bag. I don't know if that is outstanding but it's good enough for the paddock. He shoots better than me who has more than twice as much invested in my CZ. The issue is me, not the CZ.

[bigfellascott]

i got a question for all the howa guys , what differences are there between the howa and weatherby vanguard ? howa make the vangaurd for weatherby don't they ? just trying to learn some more info

The Weatherby Vanguard series is assembled at Weatherby, using barrelled actions supplied by Howa that arrive by the pallet. Weatherby then fit their own stocks, perform Q/A on the rifle before boxing and shipping. I don't recall if Howa made any actual engineering changes to the barreled actions for Weatherby but if you really want to know I can contact Tim in their sales department and ask if he relocated with the factory as they recently relocated to Wyoming from Commiefornia as its a less retarded state for firearms laws.

The Mk.V Series is still a Weatherby rifle albeit the actual manufacturing of the actions / barrels / stocks has been outsourced. All custom work along with Cerakoting is completed in house by the Weatherby staff.

Pretty much sums it up, I think they also flute their bolts and I think the barrels are a couple of inches shorter too, nothing I'd want to pay a few 100$$ for as a rule. When I buy my Howas I just buy the Barrelled Action and drop them in my own Stock (Boyds) not a fan of the plastic fantastic they come standard in.

[Rod_outbak]

Our new Howa 1500 Stainless Hunter .223 shoots far better than we could have imagined; straight out of the box. I'd say that if we fitted a better scope and spent a little more time on it, 1/2 MOA groups would be a piece of cake all day long. But as it is, it's rugged, reliable, and is consistently blowing the heads off hoppys out beyond 200 metres. Thats with 55gn V-max pills. The barrel has a 1:9" twist, so we've even got the option of going with 75gn pills, if we felt the need.

I cannot believe how that rifle has solved a heap of issues we had with the old 788, and shoots like a dream.

Previously, people have stated that the phrase 'You get what you pay for' has blurred over time. Thats probably right, but in my mind it's because the budget manufacturers are now producing firearms that shoot well beyond the skill set of most mere mortals. When I bought my first Win 94 in the late 1980's, you were lucky to get Winchester to even guarantee the rifle would fire! The concept that a manufacturer would certify their firearm is going to shoot MOA out of the box, was just beyond belief.
Now; it's commonplace.
I reckon we are now swamped with rifle options, and even the 'budget' manufacturers like Howa produce pretty darned decent gear.
AND; the options available to customise them, is huge.
I own a Remington 700, I own a Tikka T3, I own a Ruger Precision Rifle, and I own a Howa 1500(amongst others). They all shoot way beyond my crappy skill-set, but if I do my part, all will take a hoppys head off way out past 200 metres.
However, of all of these rifles, I note the Howa is the only one that I havent upgraded/customised to do this.

[Ham]

Hey mate. I see youve ruled out the lithgow 102 due to recall. Im gonna recomended it any way, mate has a tx3 super varmint(308)
And the 102 in 223. And id choose the 223 all day super smooth action and quality feel. And accurate as all hell. I gladly shoot it all day

[Bruiser64]

After spending whole day today by reading hundreds of pages of firearm forums and watching many youtube videos I shortlisted my options to the following:

- Ruger 77 Hawkeye .223 ~$1600
- Anschutz 1771 .223 ~$3100 (yes expensive, but not by much in comparison to Sako85)
- and seriously considering Winchester Model 70 in 22-250 (as they don't make it in .223) ~$2000, however concerned, isn't it too much, as I ideally I want my rabbits to remain in one whole piece.

- Had to complitely cross out Tikka, due to factors mentioned earlier.
- Had to eliminate Sako85, as Sako hunter laminated stainless (the model I like the most) isn't available until next June (just spoke to my dealer today) + possible ejection issues.
- temporarily crossed out Kimber M84, as there are mixed reviews on American forums + there is a detailed video by Ozzie Reviews, showing shocking inaccuracy, will do more research.


All opinions are welcome, you are also welsome to talk me out of my options or through in something completely new. I'm open to any suggestion, however it should be good rifle out of box, unfortunatelly I don't have time to customize it later, change stocks, barrels etc etc. Also I've checked Howas at the dealer today and I don't like them, no offence to Howa owners, they are probably great shooters, but to me they look cheap'ish, I'm not trying to save money here, it's vice versa )) just don't tell my wife

In my opinion you are a long time dead and you have allowed yourself a decent budget. This means the world really is your oyster. Of your list, if it was me, I would choose the Anschutz. I have not read a bad word about them. In my life I have never regretted spending more money on a high quality product. Let’s face it, our hobby purchases don’t have to be justified on rational grounds. You have the funds to buy a high end rifle, so go for it. The Anschutz may not shoot significantly more accurately than a Howa, but I have no doubt it will be a beautiful thing to use. Its’ fit and finish are likely to be at another level to a Howa (or even a Tikka) so will give a lot of pride of ownership.

[bigfellascott]

Yep what you get with spending more money is a more refined and well-finished product, it won't necessarily make you a better shooter per se, and it's no g'tee that the thing will be a shooter either, I've seen plenty of examples of that fact over the years too, I think the cheaper stuff will shoot just as good and sometimes better than the expensive stuff but the refinement and fit/finish isn't a high standard like the more expensive offerings (nor should it be) horses for courses I guess and if you want sparkly well finished then you have to pay for it, but if you're happy enough with average yet still shoots just as good then you won't have to pay through the nose to get the same sort of performance.

Each to their own and buy what makes you happy, worst-case scenario is you can always sell it and either upgrade or downgrade depending on your needs.

P.S. Buy a min 18 gun safe, one because you will definitely buy more than one firearm (G'tee that) and 2 because they bastards say they will hold 5 or 8 or whatever and that's usually just a bare rifle with no scope etc and it's a PITA to try and jam all ya rifles in together without getting them all marked up over times (safe rash) as I like to call it.

And PPS don't forget to oil the suckers once you've finished using them, no matter if they are SS or Blued they will all rust if not treated to a bit of TLC from an Oily rag

[Gaznazdiak]

SCJ,
You say you haven't seen any Howas producing good groups.
Well, now you've seen my group and Scott's groups, they good enough?

Do you really think either of us could have done substantially better if we'd paid $2k extra for the snob value of a "big" name?

[TassieTiger]

One thing I don’t know that’s been openly clarified - and correct me if I’m wrong...I know the op has specified “varmint” as a requirement - so this effectively means a much heavier barrel that a typical hunting barrel...do the Howas come with a varmint (heavy) barrel? Do all the shortlists come with a varmint style barrel?

Has the op handled a varmint style rifle? I know I was quite taken back when I quizzed the LGS and they then hsnded me a sporter rifle(2.8kg), followed by a fully set up varmint rifle at 5.5kg...it didn’t stop me purchasing a varmint, but it did ensure that I knew I’d be buying another rifle...

[Gaznazdiak]

Mine has the 24" fluted bull barrel, they have also released a 26" bull in 6.5CM this year.

[TassieTiger]

That would be a pretty heavy rifle then?
My steyr 223 in varmint, with bipod, scope, etc - is close enough to 6kgs.
I’m just wondering if op is fully aware - if walking / hunting is on his radar...

[Gaznazdiak]

It's no lightweight that's for sure, including bipod, Element chassis and nearly a kilo of scope, mine is 6.5kg unloaded.

One of the reasons I only hunt prone or over the bonnet, no offhand with this beasty.

[bigfellascott]

It's no lightweight that's for sure, including bipod, Element chassis and nearly a kilo of scope, mine is 6.5kg unloaded.

One of the reasons I only hunt prone or over the bonnet, no offhand with this beasty.

That's one Pregnant Rifle Mick I certainly couldn't use it off hand either.

[bigfellascott]

I think my Howa Varmint in 204 with boyd Prairie weighs in around 4.6kg with the Nikon sitting on it's back.

The other varmint barrelled actions were around 4.9kg with their configurations and sitting in boyds stocks

Not overly heavy but as I get older I do like lighter outfits but for short walks to say roll a few foxes or pop a few bunnies they aren't an issue but for a dedicated walk about outfit I'd go a sporter version personally or if you are young and fit it won't really worry you much (I used to cart my 222 HB Howa all over the hills of Hill End along with a shotgun and not even bat an eye lid at it.

Oh to be young and healthy again!

I guess the good side of this particular hobby/Sport/Lifestyle etc is you can adapt your style to suit your disabilities as it were, which is a great thing I reckon.

[TassieTiger]

Yes. But will light weight sporters consistently shoot as well as their varmint (heavier barrel) sisters...legit question. And are some brands better in light weight than others...? If I’m honest, when I started back - this was a huge eye opener to me and I’m still learning about this one fact.

[Gaznazdiak]

That's it mate.
I love the weighty black bugger, but I really wish I'd kept my WSM, it had a very nice Boyd Thumbhole, and even though it was the target version of the B-Mag with the heavy barrel, it was still far lighter and better for mincing around the sheds looking for Tony.

I just set up 200m or so from a warren most of the time, and snipe from the bonnet.
Got my cuppa, a book, maybe a munchy, you know, just roughing it