Help me to choose best rifle in .223

[Ham]

Hey mate. I see youve ruled out the lithgow 102 due to recall. Im gonna recomended it any way, mate has a tx3 super varmint(308)
And the 102 in 223. And id choose the 223 all day super smooth action and quality feel. And accurate as all hell. I gladly shoot it all day

[Bruiser64]

After spending whole day today by reading hundreds of pages of firearm forums and watching many youtube videos I shortlisted my options to the following:

- Ruger 77 Hawkeye .223 ~$1600
- Anschutz 1771 .223 ~$3100 (yes expensive, but not by much in comparison to Sako85)
- and seriously considering Winchester Model 70 in 22-250 (as they don't make it in .223) ~$2000, however concerned, isn't it too much, as I ideally I want my rabbits to remain in one whole piece.

- Had to complitely cross out Tikka, due to factors mentioned earlier.
- Had to eliminate Sako85, as Sako hunter laminated stainless (the model I like the most) isn't available until next June (just spoke to my dealer today) + possible ejection issues.
- temporarily crossed out Kimber M84, as there are mixed reviews on American forums + there is a detailed video by Ozzie Reviews, showing shocking inaccuracy, will do more research.


All opinions are welcome, you are also welsome to talk me out of my options or through in something completely new. I'm open to any suggestion, however it should be good rifle out of box, unfortunatelly I don't have time to customize it later, change stocks, barrels etc etc. Also I've checked Howas at the dealer today and I don't like them, no offence to Howa owners, they are probably great shooters, but to me they look cheap'ish, I'm not trying to save money here, it's vice versa )) just don't tell my wife

In my opinion you are a long time dead and you have allowed yourself a decent budget. This means the world really is your oyster. Of your list, if it was me, I would choose the Anschutz. I have not read a bad word about them. In my life I have never regretted spending more money on a high quality product. Let’s face it, our hobby purchases don’t have to be justified on rational grounds. You have the funds to buy a high end rifle, so go for it. The Anschutz may not shoot significantly more accurately than a Howa, but I have no doubt it will be a beautiful thing to use. Its’ fit and finish are likely to be at another level to a Howa (or even a Tikka) so will give a lot of pride of ownership.

[bigfellascott]

Yep what you get with spending more money is a more refined and well-finished product, it won't necessarily make you a better shooter per se, and it's no g'tee that the thing will be a shooter either, I've seen plenty of examples of that fact over the years too, I think the cheaper stuff will shoot just as good and sometimes better than the expensive stuff but the refinement and fit/finish isn't a high standard like the more expensive offerings (nor should it be) horses for courses I guess and if you want sparkly well finished then you have to pay for it, but if you're happy enough with average yet still shoots just as good then you won't have to pay through the nose to get the same sort of performance.

Each to their own and buy what makes you happy, worst-case scenario is you can always sell it and either upgrade or downgrade depending on your needs.

P.S. Buy a min 18 gun safe, one because you will definitely buy more than one firearm (G'tee that) and 2 because they bastards say they will hold 5 or 8 or whatever and that's usually just a bare rifle with no scope etc and it's a PITA to try and jam all ya rifles in together without getting them all marked up over times (safe rash) as I like to call it.

And PPS don't forget to oil the suckers once you've finished using them, no matter if they are SS or Blued they will all rust if not treated to a bit of TLC from an Oily rag

[Gaznazdiak]

SCJ,
You say you haven't seen any Howas producing good groups.
Well, now you've seen my group and Scott's groups, they good enough?

Do you really think either of us could have done substantially better if we'd paid $2k extra for the snob value of a "big" name?

[TassieTiger]

One thing I don’t know that’s been openly clarified - and correct me if I’m wrong...I know the op has specified “varmint” as a requirement - so this effectively means a much heavier barrel that a typical hunting barrel...do the Howas come with a varmint (heavy) barrel? Do all the shortlists come with a varmint style barrel?

Has the op handled a varmint style rifle? I know I was quite taken back when I quizzed the LGS and they then hsnded me a sporter rifle(2.8kg), followed by a fully set up varmint rifle at 5.5kg...it didn’t stop me purchasing a varmint, but it did ensure that I knew I’d be buying another rifle...

[Gaznazdiak]

Mine has the 24" fluted bull barrel, they have also released a 26" bull in 6.5CM this year.

[TassieTiger]

That would be a pretty heavy rifle then?
My steyr 223 in varmint, with bipod, scope, etc - is close enough to 6kgs.
I’m just wondering if op is fully aware - if walking / hunting is on his radar...

[Gaznazdiak]

It's no lightweight that's for sure, including bipod, Element chassis and nearly a kilo of scope, mine is 6.5kg unloaded.

One of the reasons I only hunt prone or over the bonnet, no offhand with this beasty.

[bigfellascott]

It's no lightweight that's for sure, including bipod, Element chassis and nearly a kilo of scope, mine is 6.5kg unloaded.

One of the reasons I only hunt prone or over the bonnet, no offhand with this beasty.

That's one Pregnant Rifle Mick I certainly couldn't use it off hand either.

[bigfellascott]

I think my Howa Varmint in 204 with boyd Prairie weighs in around 4.6kg with the Nikon sitting on it's back.

The other varmint barrelled actions were around 4.9kg with their configurations and sitting in boyds stocks

Not overly heavy but as I get older I do like lighter outfits but for short walks to say roll a few foxes or pop a few bunnies they aren't an issue but for a dedicated walk about outfit I'd go a sporter version personally or if you are young and fit it won't really worry you much (I used to cart my 222 HB Howa all over the hills of Hill End along with a shotgun and not even bat an eye lid at it.

Oh to be young and healthy again!

I guess the good side of this particular hobby/Sport/Lifestyle etc is you can adapt your style to suit your disabilities as it were, which is a great thing I reckon.

[TassieTiger]

Yes. But will light weight sporters consistently shoot as well as their varmint (heavier barrel) sisters...legit question. And are some brands better in light weight than others...? If I’m honest, when I started back - this was a huge eye opener to me and I’m still learning about this one fact.

[Gaznazdiak]

That's it mate.
I love the weighty black bugger, but I really wish I'd kept my WSM, it had a very nice Boyd Thumbhole, and even though it was the target version of the B-Mag with the heavy barrel, it was still far lighter and better for mincing around the sheds looking for Tony.

I just set up 200m or so from a warren most of the time, and snipe from the bonnet.
Got my cuppa, a book, maybe a munchy, you know, just roughing it

[bigfellascott]

Yes. But will light weight sporters consistently shoot as well as their varmint (heavier barrel) sisters...legit question. And are some brands better in light weight than others...? If I’m honest, when I started back - this was a huge eye opener to me and I’m still learning about this one fact.

They aren't designed to shoot one shot after another for 4 or 5 shots - these rifles are for hunting with not burning a barrel out trying to make tiny groups at 50m!

All you need out of any hunting rifle is for the first shot to be on the money, that being the case and you doing your part it will get the job done in the paddock, on the range they won't shoot anything fancy as a rule but again they aren't being made for that purpose they are being made to hunt with where it's usually 1 or 2 shots in a row and that's it.

[Gaznazdiak]

Never found barrel temp a problem when hunting, only during load development.

As Scott says, 1 shot at a time.
I might fire six or seven shots of a night when I go visit the neighbours, but that will be over a 3-4hr period

[TassieTiger]

I’m wondering if the op is aware of the above ? Because, if not - it is likely his shortlist would change...those that have been around shooting for a long time sometimes take their knowledge for granted...and something that might seem like - how could you not know that - is Not necessarily a given.

When I bought my first centrefire - 243 weatherby hunting set up - thought, right, 10 quick shots or so to sight in...but nope - couldn’t do it. Barrel was red hot and spraying bullets after 5 and I was quite disappointed...but the rifle was perfect, I just didn’t know any different.

[bigfellascott]

I’m wondering if the op is aware of the above ? Because, if not - it is likely his shortlist would change...those that have been around shooting for a long time sometimes take their knowledge for granted...and something that might seem like - how could you not know that - is Not necessarily a given.

When I bought my first centrefire - 243 weatherby hunting set up - thought, right, 10 quick shots or so to sight in...but nope - couldn’t do it. Barrel was red hot and spraying bullets after 5 and I was quite disappointed...but the rifle was perfect, I just didn’t know any different.

At least ya learning mate, we've all been there and it's like everything in life, the more you do something the more you learn.

That's why I reckon that rifle you are having trouble with would still be a good hunting rifle.

[TassieTiger]

I’m wondering if the op is aware of the above ? Because, if not - it is likely his shortlist would change...those that have been around shooting for a long time sometimes take their knowledge for granted...and something that might seem like - how could you not know that - is Not necessarily a given.

When I bought my first centrefire - 243 weatherby hunting set up - thought, right, 10 quick shots or so to sight in...but nope - couldn’t do it. Barrel was red hot and spraying bullets after 5 and I was quite disappointed...but the rifle was perfect, I just didn’t know any different.

At least ya learning mate, we've all been there and it's like everything in life, the more you do something the more you learn.

That's why I reckon that rifle you are having trouble with would still be a good hunting rifle.

Absolutely agree with you re that hunting rifle - I can’t explain why but I got obsessed with making it shoot like my varmint rifles - insanely obsessed. Makes zero sense - because I damn well know it’s design brief is different but I guess I learn more from my mistakes than my successes lol.

OP needs to be aware if he’s not already...

[Sherlock]

Have 2 Tikka Hunters,223 and a 270win stainless ,fluted barrel.
Both are very good rifles,223 has a after market mag.Aliminum construction,$160.Not that had any issue with factory mag.
Never had any issues at all,both very accurate
As poined out by Harrynsw rifle only the start of the spendup.Get a 3 or 4 gun safe just in case.

[Islander7]

Thanks Tassie for raising the question re varmint barrels. You are right, Im a complete novice and didn't realise it's an important factor. Ruger 77 hawkeye is available in varmint, but you are right, I didn't consider weight previously. Will have to review my options I guess... On the other hand, all I'm going to do is to shoot some rabbits and wallabies here and there on my property, I'm talking about maybe up to 15-20 shots within few hours, do I still need to look into varmint models for that or standard 'hunter' models will do?

[albat]

hey islander if thats all you going to be clouting on 100acres you might want to condsider a 17hmr , you can pop that stuff out to 200m with half the racket

[bigrich]

The anschutz in 222 would be very nice and very accurate

[Bruiser64]

Thanks Tassie for raising the question re varmint barrels. You are right, Im a complete novice and didn't realise it's an important factor. Ruger 77 hawkeye is available in varmint, but you are right, I didn't consider weight previously. Will have to review my options I guess... On the other hand, all I'm going to do is to shoot some rabbits and wallabies here and there on my property, I'm talking about maybe up to 15-20 shots within few hours, do I still need to look into varmint models for that or standard 'hunter' models will do?

As you are, by your own admission, a complete novice, you would be advised to shoot a number of different rifles to build a frame of reference. To answer your question about a heavy or light barrel, well it all depends on what type of shooting you are doing.

For example, I have a Tikka T3x lite in 243 and a Savage Model 25 Walking Varminter in 204. The Tikka is a lighter rifle than my Savage, so if I am hunting on foot, I much prefer to use my Tikka, If I am spotlighting from my car, it doesn’t matter so much. A heavier barrelled rifle is likely to sit more steadily in a rest and not heat up as quickly if shooting multiple shots in a short space of time.

Whilst I said in an earlier post that the Anschutz is a good option; a better option may be to buy a few cheaper rifles and see what you like. As a number of people have posted, Howa’s are accurate but relatively inexpensive. My recommendation would be to get a Ruger American in 22lr, a sportier weight 223 Howa and maybe a Ruger American 22 Magnum as well. You can then shoot them a heap and then work out your preferences. After you have a frame of reference you will have a clearer idea of what you like and what you don’t like.

Another piece of advice is to get a good quality rifle scope. I like my Leupold VX3. You can swap your optic onto a more expensive rifle if that is what you want to do.

[SCJ429]

SCJ,
You say you haven't seen any Howas producing good groups.
Well, now you've seen my group and Scott's groups, they good enough?

Do you really think either of us could have done substantially better if we'd paid $2k extra for the snob value of a "big" name?

They are good results and you both should be commended. Would you both do better with a Tikka Varmint? Undoubted you both would. I bought my Tikka secondhand for $1,000 and it has shot in the low .200 at 100, under an inch at 300 and under three inches at 500. This rifle has over 3,000 rounds through it and I am not a world class shooter. In your hands I am sure you could do even better.

The OP asked for the best rifle he could get in .223, I said a Stiller Tac 30 or if not a Sako 75. That is not to say that he couldn't get a Howa Varmint and shoot 1/2 MOA out to 300 metres as you have shown. No issues with Howa, for $700 you get a well designed robust and accurate rifle.

[Islander7]

Forgot to mention, the reason I want a centerfire is because once a year I'll be culling sheep as well, while it's possible to do it with smaller caliber I would much rather prefer to stay with at least .223

[TassieTiger]

Thanks Tassie for raising the question re varmint barrels. You are right, Im a complete novice and didn't realise it's an important factor. Ruger 77 hawkeye is available in varmint, but you are right, I didn't consider weight previously. Will have to review my options I guess... On the other hand, all I'm going to do is to shoot some rabbits and wallabies here and there on my property, I'm talking about maybe up to 15-20 shots within few hours, do I still need to look into varmint models for that or standard 'hunter' models will do?

Just as others have said - you do need to decide what your intentions are.
When I first started I was going to do the same as you. Little bit of hunting here and there. I recall sitting there over a large Warren with my light weight 243, rabbits everywhere - I shot 5 quite quickly and then started missing as they scattered time and time again.
This was the start of my - “wtf is going on crusade” lol.

If there is ANY chance that you’ll start to enjoy target shooting - even just for your own fun - a varmint barrel might be better. If there are places on your property, where hunting might allow for more than 5 shots inside 10-15 mins, again - a varmint barrel will be more consistent.
My limited experience has shown me at least, that a varmint barrel might be more accurate for groupings - they are thicker so have less whip, flex, call it what you will.
That’s not to say a light barrel won’t shoot accurately - that’s not what I’m saying.,..umm...

If you are likely to want to sight in your rifle, then walk, stalk, hunt, shoot a shot off rarely, or as you come across game - then a sporter/hunting barrel would be preferred.

The difference in weight IS a consideration for stalking. 3 kg difference might not sound much, and if your 21 and still made of rubber - go for it. I hunt up and down mountains, the wrong side of 45 and well.,,feel every kg.

[marksman]

if you really like the ruger why not go a vt

they may be called a varmint-target but they are very light weight compared to a real varmint or target weight barrel
the 22-250 should not be a concern for shooting rabbits with as it will do as much damage as a 223 will, get an accurate rifle and head shoot
the stainless steel howa I posted the photo up of is a varmint barrel at 24" that rifle will not way you down even if it had a timber stock that they sell on it
the idea of getting the barrel rechambered is that although you will still only have a factory barrel the rifle will be put together custom by someone who is not on an assembly line so you have more chance of getting a shooter and the price would be around $600 on top of $739 for rifle, $299 for stock
still way under your budget you want a rifle that will print 5 shots into a ragged hole every time not just occasionally

here is a photo of my 22-250 ruger vt and 6mm dasher mauser varmint with head shot rabbits that my 13 year old daughter shot with the 22-250 ruger
have a good look at the size difference and the barrel on the 6mm dasher varmint is still not in the varmint class, its a #6 contour profile barrel



the shooting distances were out to 300 but mainly between 200-250, this 22-250 ruger is stock factory except for bedding and trigger upgrade, it shoots five shots into one hole at 200 all day but I have never come across another ruger vt that will do the same so realise it is the luck of the draw with factory rifles
you do not have to customise your rifle to have it shoot but it will give it the best chance and since you have a healthy budget why the f@rk not
with the costs I have shown you could even buy a decent scope and still be under rifle budget
best of luck with your choices anyway

[Sergeant Hartman]

Mate some ppl like to tinker, some give the money to someone and the keys of their brand spanking new toy, some hissy like to buy a Lamborghini cuz they have the cashola. Ohh wait we talking guns again.

Rebarrel isn't that expensive an option anyway and any gun can be done, even new expensive ones. I haven't yet taken possession and shot my latest project, but the cost to rebarrel and shipping was $635.

[marksman]

Mate some ppl like to tinker, some give the money to someone and the keys of their brand spanking new toy, some hissy like to buy a Lamborghini cuz they have the cashola. Ohh wait we talking guns again.

Rebarrel isn't that expensive an option anyway and any gun can be done, even new expensive ones. I haven't yet taken possession and shot my latest project, but the cost to rebarrel and shipping was $635.

what I meant was to rechamber the existing factory barrel, a rechamber, squaring off the action and lapping lugs is around $400, a bedding job is around $200
I paid $250 for the 6mm dasher in the photo to be done by an accuracy gunsmith, I used my own shilen match barrel that cost me $350 AU to my door
Abbott and Obama have f@rked that up though, I hope Trump changes it all back again

[bigrich]

on the subject of reworking rifles , i've been running in a new barrel on my 222 winchester and working up loads for it this week. had to go to belmont cause ripley's closed . bit of a crosswind at belmont, but the old girl did alright . after experimenting with ar2206h , ar2207 , it's really taken a shine to BM2 . the load is 23 gn BM2, 50gn nosler ballistic tip , cci 400 primers , norma brass and a coal 30 thou off the lands ( might play with coal soon ) the old winnie is nuthin' super special it's a 1975 XTR . i floated the barrel myself, bedded around the front recoil lug only , redid the stock with tru oil and polished the sear and adjusted the pull weight ( i like to tinker ) the barrel is a swan, i've only put a bit over 50 down the barrel, so it may improve pics sideways again , group shot at 100

[TassieTiger]

^ is be pretty freakin stoked if I could replicate this on a windy day at 100! Nice shootin