Help me to choose best rifle in .223

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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by Islander7 » 28 Dec 2018, 3:00 pm

Thanks Tassie for raising the question re varmint barrels. You are right, Im a complete novice and didn't realise it's an important factor. Ruger 77 hawkeye is available in varmint, but you are right, I didn't consider weight previously. Will have to review my options I guess... On the other hand, all I'm going to do is to shoot some rabbits and wallabies here and there on my property, I'm talking about maybe up to 15-20 shots within few hours, do I still need to look into varmint models for that or standard 'hunter' models will do?
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by albat » 28 Dec 2018, 3:07 pm

hey islander if thats all you going to be clouting on 100acres you might want to condsider a 17hmr , you can pop that stuff out to 200m with half the racket
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by bigrich » 28 Dec 2018, 3:16 pm

The anschutz in 222 would be very nice and very accurate
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by Bruiser64 » 28 Dec 2018, 3:21 pm

Islander7 wrote:Thanks Tassie for raising the question re varmint barrels. You are right, Im a complete novice and didn't realise it's an important factor. Ruger 77 hawkeye is available in varmint, but you are right, I didn't consider weight previously. Will have to review my options I guess... On the other hand, all I'm going to do is to shoot some rabbits and wallabies here and there on my property, I'm talking about maybe up to 15-20 shots within few hours, do I still need to look into varmint models for that or standard 'hunter' models will do?


As you are, by your own admission, a complete novice, you would be advised to shoot a number of different rifles to build a frame of reference. To answer your question about a heavy or light barrel, well it all depends on what type of shooting you are doing.

For example, I have a Tikka T3x lite in 243 and a Savage Model 25 Walking Varminter in 204. The Tikka is a lighter rifle than my Savage, so if I am hunting on foot, I much prefer to use my Tikka, If I am spotlighting from my car, it doesn’t matter so much. A heavier barrelled rifle is likely to sit more steadily in a rest and not heat up as quickly if shooting multiple shots in a short space of time.

Whilst I said in an earlier post that the Anschutz is a good option; a better option may be to buy a few cheaper rifles and see what you like. As a number of people have posted, Howa’s are accurate but relatively inexpensive. My recommendation would be to get a Ruger American in 22lr, a sportier weight 223 Howa and maybe a Ruger American 22 Magnum as well. You can then shoot them a heap and then work out your preferences. After you have a frame of reference you will have a clearer idea of what you like and what you don’t like.

Another piece of advice is to get a good quality rifle scope. I like my Leupold VX3. You can swap your optic onto a more expensive rifle if that is what you want to do.
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by SCJ429 » 28 Dec 2018, 4:54 pm

Gaznazdiak wrote:SCJ,
You say you haven't seen any Howas producing good groups.
Well, now you've seen my group and Scott's groups, they good enough?

Do you really think either of us could have done substantially better if we'd paid $2k extra for the snob value of a "big" name?


They are good results and you both should be commended. Would you both do better with a Tikka Varmint? Undoubted you both would. I bought my Tikka secondhand for $1,000 and it has shot in the low .200 at 100, under an inch at 300 and under three inches at 500. This rifle has over 3,000 rounds through it and I am not a world class shooter. In your hands I am sure you could do even better.

The OP asked for the best rifle he could get in .223, I said a Stiller Tac 30 or if not a Sako 75. That is not to say that he couldn't get a Howa Varmint and shoot 1/2 MOA out to 300 metres as you have shown. No issues with Howa, for $700 you get a well designed robust and accurate rifle.
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by Islander7 » 28 Dec 2018, 5:23 pm

Forgot to mention, the reason I want a centerfire is because once a year I'll be culling sheep as well, while it's possible to do it with smaller caliber I would much rather prefer to stay with at least .223
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by TassieTiger » 28 Dec 2018, 5:30 pm

Islander7 wrote:Thanks Tassie for raising the question re varmint barrels. You are right, Im a complete novice and didn't realise it's an important factor. Ruger 77 hawkeye is available in varmint, but you are right, I didn't consider weight previously. Will have to review my options I guess... On the other hand, all I'm going to do is to shoot some rabbits and wallabies here and there on my property, I'm talking about maybe up to 15-20 shots within few hours, do I still need to look into varmint models for that or standard 'hunter' models will do?


Just as others have said - you do need to decide what your intentions are.
When I first started I was going to do the same as you. Little bit of hunting here and there. I recall sitting there over a large Warren with my light weight 243, rabbits everywhere - I shot 5 quite quickly and then started missing as they scattered time and time again.
This was the start of my - “wtf is going on crusade” lol.

If there is ANY chance that you’ll start to enjoy target shooting - even just for your own fun - a varmint barrel might be better. If there are places on your property, where hunting might allow for more than 5 shots inside 10-15 mins, again - a varmint barrel will be more consistent.
My limited experience has shown me at least, that a varmint barrel might be more accurate for groupings - they are thicker so have less whip, flex, call it what you will.
That’s not to say a light barrel won’t shoot accurately - that’s not what I’m saying.,..umm...

If you are likely to want to sight in your rifle, then walk, stalk, hunt, shoot a shot off rarely, or as you come across game - then a sporter/hunting barrel would be preferred.

The difference in weight IS a consideration for stalking. 3 kg difference might not sound much, and if your 21 and still made of rubber - go for it. I hunt up and down mountains, the wrong side of 45 and well.,,feel every kg.
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by marksman » 28 Dec 2018, 6:28 pm

if you really like the ruger why not go a vt :unknown:

they may be called a varmint-target but they are very light weight compared to a real varmint or target weight barrel
the 22-250 should not be a concern for shooting rabbits with as it will do as much damage as a 223 will, get an accurate rifle and head shoot :roll:
the stainless steel howa I posted the photo up of is a varmint barrel at 24" that rifle will not way you down even if it had a timber stock that they sell on it
the idea of getting the barrel rechambered is that although you will still only have a factory barrel the rifle will be put together custom by someone who is not on an assembly line so you have more chance of getting a shooter and the price would be around $600 on top of $739 for rifle, $299 for stock
still way under your budget :unknown: you want a rifle that will print 5 shots into a ragged hole every time not just occasionally

here is a photo of my 22-250 ruger vt and 6mm dasher mauser varmint with head shot rabbits that my 13 year old daughter shot with the 22-250 ruger
have a good look at the size difference and the barrel on the 6mm dasher varmint is still not in the varmint class, its a #6 contour profile barrel

Image

the shooting distances were out to 300 but mainly between 200-250, this 22-250 ruger is stock factory except for bedding and trigger upgrade, it shoots five shots into one hole at 200 all day but I have never come across another ruger vt that will do the same so realise it is the luck of the draw with factory rifles
you do not have to customise your rifle to have it shoot but it will give it the best chance and since you have a healthy budget why the f@rk not :unknown:
with the costs I have shown you could even buy a decent scope and still be under rifle budget
best of luck with your choices anyway :drinks:
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 28 Dec 2018, 6:58 pm

Mate some ppl like to tinker, some give the money to someone and the keys of their brand spanking new toy, some hissy like to buy a Lamborghini cuz they have the cashola. Ohh wait we talking guns again.

Rebarrel isn't that expensive an option anyway and any gun can be done, even new expensive ones. I haven't yet taken possession and shot my latest project, but the cost to rebarrel and shipping was $635.
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by marksman » 28 Dec 2018, 7:14 pm

Ziad wrote:Mate some ppl like to tinker, some give the money to someone and the keys of their brand spanking new toy, some hissy like to buy a Lamborghini cuz they have the cashola. Ohh wait we talking guns again.

Rebarrel isn't that expensive an option anyway and any gun can be done, even new expensive ones. I haven't yet taken possession and shot my latest project, but the cost to rebarrel and shipping was $635.


what I meant was to rechamber the existing factory barrel, a rechamber, squaring off the action and lapping lugs is around $400, a bedding job is around $200
I paid $250 for the 6mm dasher in the photo to be done by an accuracy gunsmith, I used my own shilen match barrel that cost me $350 AU to my door
Abbott and Obama have f@rked that up though, I hope Trump changes it all back again :drinks:
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by bigrich » 28 Dec 2018, 7:21 pm

on the subject of reworking rifles , i've been running in a new barrel on my 222 winchester and working up loads for it this week. had to go to belmont cause ripley's closed . bit of a crosswind at belmont, but the old girl did alright . after experimenting with ar2206h , ar2207 , it's really taken a shine to BM2 . the load is 23 gn BM2, 50gn nosler ballistic tip , cci 400 primers , norma brass and a coal 30 thou off the lands ( might play with coal soon ) the old winnie is nuthin' super special it's a 1975 XTR . i floated the barrel myself, bedded around the front recoil lug only , redid the stock with tru oil and polished the sear and adjusted the pull weight ( i like to tinker ) the barrel is a swan, i've only put a bit over 50 down the barrel, so it may improve :) pics sideways again , :roll: group shot at 100

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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by TassieTiger » 28 Dec 2018, 8:11 pm

^ is be pretty freakin stoked if I could replicate this on a windy day at 100! Nice shootin :-)
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by bigrich » 28 Dec 2018, 8:24 pm

TassieTiger wrote:^ is be pretty freakin stoked if I could replicate this on a windy day at 100! Nice shootin :-)


thanks mate ,fair bit of time learnin' how to shoot and reload too tas

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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by Gaznazdiak » 29 Dec 2018, 10:16 am

TassieTiger wrote:
bigfellascott wrote:
TassieTiger wrote:I’m wondering if the op is aware of the above ? Because, if not - it is likely his shortlist would change...those that have been around shooting for a long time sometimes take their knowledge for granted...and something that might seem like - how could you not know that - is Not necessarily a given.

When I bought my first centrefire - 243 weatherby hunting set up - thought, right, 10 quick shots or so to sight in...but nope - couldn’t do it. Barrel was red hot and spraying bullets after 5 and I was quite disappointed...but the rifle was perfect, I just didn’t know any different.


At least ya learning mate, we've all been there and it's like everything in life, the more you do something the more you learn. :drinks:

That's why I reckon that rifle you are having trouble with would still be a good hunting rifle. :thumbsup:


Absolutely agree with you re that hunting rifle - I can’t explain why but I got obsessed with making it shoot like my varmint rifles - insanely obsessed. Makes zero sense - because I damn well know it’s design brief is different but I guess I learn more from my mistakes than my successes lol.

OP needs to be aware if he’s not already...



But you're having fun pandering to your obsession Tas, and that's the important part. :thumbsup:
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by Sawyers » 29 Dec 2018, 10:38 am

Islander7 wrote:Forgot to mention, the reason I want a centerfire is because once a year I'll be culling sheep as well, while it's possible to do it with smaller caliber I would much rather prefer to stay with at least .223

What distances will you be shooting these shheo from?
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by Gaznazdiak » 29 Dec 2018, 11:58 am

I don't know your background Islander, but for sheep culling a.22 hollow point longditudally into their skull where their first cervical vertebra joins is more than adequate.

As Sawyers question suggests, unless you are doing it at a safe, reasonable distance, a .223 projectile is dangerous overkill for that job.

Even at 100m a .223 will explode a sheep's skull. At contact or near contact range you are just being unnecessarily messy and unsafe, particularly if the culling is in a constrained environment like yards.
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by solarpak » 29 Dec 2018, 2:05 pm

SCJ429 wrote:
solarpak wrote:Buy a standard howa m1500 (not the mini action) and save yourself a bundle.....they shoot as good as any rifle with 55 grain loads. (with the 1 in 12 twist)
CK


I have not seen any outstanding results when guys use a Howa, the barrels are OK but don't come close to what I have seen from Tikka or Sako barrels. What size groups do you get from your Howa at 100 metres?

Was your gunsmith unable to fix the extractor on your Sako? What was causing the problem?


SCJ,
my standard howa 223 (not mini action) with the 1 in 12 twist used to shoot the Winchester 223 White Box bulk ammo into half inch at 100m - five shots not three. This was quite a few years ago - and i parted with that rifle to a mate (who bugged me about it !!) - then as you do he sold it off 6 months later.... for a profit .....some mate!!!

Anyway i profess not to being a hand-loader and will try a few different factory loads in any rifle i have to see what shoots the best...

Yes the sako extractor issue - personally you spend $2000+ on a new sako 85 223 and it should work ...... period. Use the rifle without a scope fitted - all good. Put a scope anywhere near the action - and the empty cases flick up and hit the scope - and fall back in to the ejection port.

Some 85's work as they should, some dont ...... ..
My 85 in 270 and 243 worked a treat for many years but my 85 223 and Sako A7 in 300 Win Mag and 6.5 CM gave the same problem......

CK
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by Islander7 » 29 Dec 2018, 2:13 pm

Gaznazdiak wrote:I don't know your background Islander, but for sheep culling a.22 hollow point longditudally into their skull where their first cervical vertebra joins is more than adequate.

As Sawyers question suggests, unless you are doing it at a safe, reasonable distance, a .223 projectile is dangerous overkill for that job.

Even at 100m a .223 will explode a sheep's skull. At contact or near contact range you are just being unnecessarily messy and unsafe, particularly if the culling is in a constrained environment like yards.


Now I'm totally confused about what I need / want. .223 was the caliber a guy in local gunshop recommended for my needs, plus my search online for 'best caliber for a farm' confirmed that .223 is very universal and a good candidate - Not too powerful for rabbits if headshot, not too weak for sheep etc. Now I feel completely lost.

Not sure about sheep shooting distance. I had butchering experience before, but not shooting. Just bought a farm recently, not sure yet how close they will let me come by.

Earlier bigrich and albat mention .222 and 17hmr... I also see that there are 22lr, 22wmr... How all these compare for my needs?

Sorry for noob questions.
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by bladeracer » 29 Dec 2018, 3:05 pm

Islander7 wrote:Now I'm totally confused about what I need / want. .223 was the caliber a guy in local gunshop recommended for my needs, plus my search online for 'best caliber for a farm' confirmed that .223 is very universal and a good candidate - Not too powerful for rabbits if headshot, not too weak for sheep etc. Now I feel completely lost.

Not sure about sheep shooting distance. I had butchering experience before, but not shooting. Just bought a farm recently, not sure yet how close they will let me come by.

Earlier bigrich and albat mention .222 and 17hmr... I also see that there are 22lr, 22wmr... How all these compare for my needs?

Sorry for noob questions.


You don't shoot animals while they're out with their mates, you yard them first for a night to quiet them down, then feed them through a race individually, and dispatch them in isolation. A subsonic .22LR into the head at contact range is the most humane method.

It's worth noting that you can only kill your animals for your own use. If you want to sell the meat they need to be killed by a registered abattoir.
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by Islander7 » 29 Dec 2018, 4:01 pm

bladeracer wrote:
You don't shoot animals while they're out with their mates, you yard them first for a night to quiet them down, then feed them through a race individually, and dispatch them in isolation. A subsonic .22LR into the head at contact range is the most humane method.

It's worth noting that you can only kill your animals for your own use. If you want to sell the meat they need to be killed by a registered abattoir.


Thanks mate, it's clearer now. Yes, it's only for my own consumprion
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by Gaznazdiak » 29 Dec 2018, 4:13 pm

Islander7 wrote:
Gaznazdiak wrote:I don't know your background Islander, but for sheep culling a.22 hollow point longditudally into their skull where their first cervical vertebra joins is more than adequate.

As Sawyers question suggests, unless you are doing it at a safe, reasonable distance, a .223 projectile is dangerous overkill for that job.

Even at 100m a .223 will explode a sheep's skull. At contact or near contact range you are just being unnecessarily messy and unsafe, particularly if the culling is in a constrained environment like yards.


Now I'm totally confused about what I need / want. .223 was the caliber a guy in local gunshop recommended for my needs, plus my search online for 'best caliber for a farm' confirmed that .223 is very universal and a good candidate - Not too powerful for rabbits if headshot, not too weak for sheep etc. Now I feel completely lost.

Not sure about sheep shooting distance. I had butchering experience before, but not shooting. Just bought a farm recently, not sure yet how close they will let me come by.

Earlier bigrich and albat mention .222 and 17hmr... I also see that there are 22lr, 22wmr... How all these compare for my needs?

Sorry for noob questions.


Never apologize for seeking knowledge, Islander, knowledge is safer than ignorance, so you are doing the right thing.

As far as the gun shop reccomendation of the .223 as a good all round calibre for a farm, yes, definitely.

When you said culling, I think I had the wrong context. I think you may mean 1 or 2 for personal consumption, not putting down a mob that can't be fed or sold.

If you were only killing them to eat, then the .223, fired from a distance at which you are assured accurate placement as well as safety, would be suitable for that as well.

It can sound confusing, but by asking people who shoot, some every day, you should make less mistakes, as before, good luck and enjoy your new rifle whatever it turns out to be.
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by Islander7 » 29 Dec 2018, 4:41 pm

Gaznazdiak wrote:...
:drinks:


Thanks mate - much appreciate all the advice I'm getting here!
English isn't my first language - yes I'm going to kill 2-3 sheep a year for my own consumption.

In relation to .223 for the use on rabbits (some for consumption as well) will it be ok if headshot, or it's overpowered and meat will be wasted?

I'm open to suggestion and happy to go rimfire route if that's sufficient enough for my needs, however I'm concerned it's going to be underpowered (want to shoot them within at least 120-150m).

Is there any rimfire caliber out there that is similar to 22 but effective over longer distances?
Thanks again!
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by in2anity » 29 Dec 2018, 5:52 pm

You cull sheep with a 22lr just sayin. Awful job it is
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by in2anity » 29 Dec 2018, 5:59 pm

+1 for the mini action, medium profile barrel you see, yet compact. And get a nice high-comb or adjustable stock.
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by bladeracer » 29 Dec 2018, 6:19 pm

Islander7 wrote:Thanks mate - much appreciate all the advice I'm getting here!
English isn't my first language - yes I'm going to kill 2-3 sheep a year for my own consumption.

In relation to .223 for the use on rabbits (some for consumption as well) will it be ok if headshot, or it's overpowered and meat will be wasted?

I'm open to suggestion and happy to go rimfire route if that's sufficient enough for my needs, however I'm concerned it's going to be underpowered (want to shoot them within at least 120-150m).

Is there any rimfire caliber out there that is similar to 22 but effective over longer distances?
Thanks again!


High-velocity rifles are okay for rabbits if you can head-shoot them, or use FMJ bullets into the chest or head. Out to 150m really doesn't need anything more than .22WMR, .17,HMR or the .22Hornet. For rabbits and foxes you want accuracy over terminal performance. I would not recommend shooting rabbits with .22LR past about 70m or so as the bullet has limited hydrostatic effect. With a .223 if you are off and hit the nose you'll still have a clean kill, with a .22LR you'll simply have a maimed rabbit that'll run down a hole to die.

I would strongly recommend getting a .22LR regardless though, it is far and away the best bang-for-buck for learning to shoot well. You can learn everything you need to with a .22LR for very little cost and very little noise. It's also a terrific way to spend an afternoon, laying in a field shooting paper, or steel, or cans. It all translates to the centrefire so all your shooting benefits from time spent on the .22. It will also be a much better choice for dispatching a domestic meat animal.

Are you looking to load your own ammo for the centrefire? If you are, then you can get a .223, .204, .243 or anything else in that range, and load them to suit your specific purposes - right down to subsonic .22LR equivalents. But with full-power factory loads I think even the .223 is more than you'd want just for shooting the occasional sheep, fox, cat or rabbit. You might want to look at the .17HMR for those purposes. From what I've seen of them they tend to be more accurate than most WMR's or Hornets.

I think all farms should have a .22LR and 12ga. shotgun by default. See if you can find a nice secondhand Brno Model 2 for the .22LR. I doubt anybody ever regretted buying a Model 2.
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by Gaznazdiak » 29 Dec 2018, 6:30 pm

Islander, mate, it sounds to me like you would be better suited with the .17 Winchester Super Magnum

It's a rimfire, but it's the Terminator of rimfires.
I never tire of showing people this pic because it still amazes me.
I accidentally hit the side of the sheep yards with my WSM from 65m, that's 2 layers of 3mm steel.
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From memory (that is chemically impaired at the moment) the rabbit below was 100 or 120m, round entered under the left ear.
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If the biggest non-sheep you are likely to be shooting at is a rabbit, I would give serious consideration to the WSM, it would have no trouble terminating a sheep with a headshot, and as you would not be reloading anyway, probably only half to two thirds the ammo price.
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by Gaznazdiak » 29 Dec 2018, 6:42 pm

Just to give you a perspective of the difference between the .17WSM on the left and the .22 on the right
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by TassieTiger » 29 Dec 2018, 7:17 pm

Islander7 wrote:
Gaznazdiak wrote:...
:drinks:


Thanks mate - much appreciate all the advice I'm getting here!
English isn't my first language - yes I'm going to kill 2-3 sheep a year for my own consumption.

In relation to .223 for the use on rabbits (some for consumption as well) will it be ok if headshot, or it's overpowered and meat will be wasted?

I'm open to suggestion and happy to go rimfire route if that's sufficient enough for my needs, however I'm concerned it's going to be underpowered (want to shoot them within at least 120-150m).

Is there any rimfire caliber out there that is similar to 22 but effective over longer distances?
Thanks again!


You can probably appreciate now whilst a few ppl early on have said - buy a very large safe - because shooting multiple / different guns is not only fun, you can tailor a rifle to specific needs...
You want to distance shoot some bunnies for dinner? - grab the .17wsm.
You want to spotlight out a warren? Grab the .22lr with subs or 12g.
You have seen a few wallaby at distance? Take the .223.
You want to knock over a few sheep ? Grab some high velocity 22lr’s.

And then there is the pesky dinosaurs getting around occasionally - well, the 338 lapua is just asking to be taken for a run...:-)
Tikka .260 (Z5 5x25/52)
Steyr Pro Varmint .223 - VX 3
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22 (vtex 4-12, bush 3-9)
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
Adler a110 reddot
Sauer 30-06 - VX 3
Howa 300 win mag. SHV 5-20/56
Marlin SBL 45/70
TassieTiger
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Tasmania

Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by SCJ429 » 29 Dec 2018, 8:26 pm

Islander7 wrote:[quote="Gaznazdiak

In relation to .223 for the use on rabbits (some for consumption as well) will it be ok if headshot, or it's overpowered and meat will be wasted?

I'm open to suggestion and happy to go rimfire route if that's sufficient enough for my needs, however I'm concerned it's going to be underpowered (want to shoot them within at least 120-150m).

Is there any rimfire caliber out there that is similar to 22 but effective over longer distances?
Thanks again!


You can get a rimfire 22 Magnum or 17, they can be effective out to 150 metres or even a little further but the ammo is expensive. You could reload a 223 for less money. You can also load a 223 to shoot subsonic if needed, the 223 can do everything and more that those rimfires can do.
SCJ429
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Posts: 3208
New South Wales

Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by Oatesy » 29 Dec 2018, 8:44 pm

schultz and larsen make some nice rifles, they might be worth a look aswell
Oatesy
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Tasmania

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