Help me to choose best rifle in .223

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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by SCJ429 » 06 Jan 2019, 1:11 pm

Gaznazdiak wrote:G'day bigrich,
mate I've done the same, gone from ballistic tips back to soft nose.
I thought the Nosler 50gn were the Bee's knees, until I got hold of the 55gn Roo Max.

It's OCD I know but I weigh my projectiles as well as brass to get the best consistency.
The Nosler were all over the place like a mad woman's sh!t with an average deviation of .3gn difference but with some as much as 1.5 over or under.
I've loaded 140 Roo Max so far and their average deviation is .1g, with the biggest being only .2. The majority, about 65% were exactly 55gn.
Even Berger VLD match bullets I've used weren't that consistent.
The Howa's 9 twist seems to like 55s better as well :D


I have no luck with Roo Max, I shot them in a 1:8 barrel and they were rubbish so I shot them in a 1:14 still average. I find Noslers ballistic tips group well and Vmax are excellent. That said I head shot an 80 kilo goat with the Roo max and it dropped it instantly, head shot. What I like about them is the price and that they expand on small game.

Not sure if weighing the pill gains you much, the variation in your scales might be more of a factor. Berger VLD work well for everyone so if there is any variation it isn't reflected in the group size. The base to ogive length is the critical factor there.
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by Gaznazdiak » 06 Jan 2019, 3:36 pm

SCJ429 wrote:
Gaznazdiak wrote:G'day bigrich,
mate I've done the same, gone from ballistic tips back to soft nose.
I thought the Nosler 50gn were the Bee's knees, until I got hold of the 55gn Roo Max.

It's OCD I know but I weigh my projectiles as well as brass to get the best consistency.
The Nosler were all over the place like a mad woman's sh!t with an average deviation of .3gn difference but with some as much as 1.5 over or under.
I've loaded 140 Roo Max so far and their average deviation is .1g, with the biggest being only .2. The majority, about 65% were exactly 55gn.
Even Berger VLD match bullets I've used weren't that consistent.
The Howa's 9 twist seems to like 55s better as well :D


Not sure if weighing the pill gains you much, the variation in your scales might be more of a factor. Berger VLD work well for everyone so if there is any variation it isn't reflected in the group size. The base to ogive length is the critical factor there.


If the variation was in my scales and not the item being weighed, then the inconsistencies would be present in every projectile type and be of a consistent value, they are not, therefore simple logic says it's the projectiles that vary.

As to what is to be gained from batching?
Consistency. That's the point

If you have a batch of cases that all weigh 93gn and you load them all with projectiles of the same exact weight, they will perform more consistently than with pills that aren't. Heavier will hit lower than expected and light will hit higher.

When I'm shooting at an animal with a target area 2" diameter at 300m, I want to know the bullet is going where I want, not an inch high and scaring him off or worse, an inch low and just taking off his jaw.
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by bigfellascott » 06 Jan 2019, 3:52 pm

Gaznazdiak wrote:G'day Scott
I have noticed a distinctly different impact noise between the two, now that you mention it.
The Nosler BT have a solid copper base and make a low pitched sound like whacking the dust out of a floor mat with a broom handle, whereas the soft nose Hornady seem to produce a higher frequency, sort of like a .22 firing from 2-300m away.

The solid bases were punched right through and made them problematic to use around the sheds. The soft nose don't have this problem.

I caught one looking the wrong way last week and got him from behind from less than 40m.
I lined him up so that there was a post behind him instead of yard rail and nailed him.

Totally obliterated him, as expected, but no shrapnel in the post or rails less than 3m behind him.
I spent ages and many $ trying to get an accurate 35gn load for the sheds without success and these babies could do it all along.


Good to hear you got something that works for you mick. I found the Nosler Solid base seem to put em on the deck that little bit quicker than the others - Not sure why that was but the definitely made a Thud type sound compared to the other varieties I was testing at the time. :drinks:
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by bigrich » 06 Jan 2019, 5:15 pm

bigfellascott wrote:
Gaznazdiak wrote:G'day Scott
I have noticed a distinctly different impact noise between the two, now that you mention it.
The Nosler BT have a solid copper base and make a low pitched sound like whacking the dust out of a floor mat with a broom handle, whereas the soft nose Hornady seem to produce a higher frequency, sort of like a .22 firing from 2-300m away.

The solid bases were punched right through and made them problematic to use around the sheds. The soft nose don't have this problem.

I caught one looking the wrong way last week and got him from behind from less than 40m.
I lined him up so that there was a post behind him instead of yard rail and nailed him.

Totally obliterated him, as expected, but no shrapnel in the post or rails less than 3m behind him.
I spent ages and many $ trying to get an accurate 35gn load for the sheds without success and these babies could do it all along.


Good to hear you got something that works for you mick. I found the Nosler Solid base seem to put em on the deck that little bit quicker than the others - Not sure why that was but the definitely made a Thud type sound compared to the other varieties I was testing at the time. :drinks:


i chose the nosler for it's solid base too scot , i've found vmax are a bit more explosive than i'd like . anyone found anything else that shoots well ? speer ?

:drinks: :drinks: :thumbsup:
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by bladeracer » 06 Jan 2019, 5:37 pm

Gaznazdiak wrote:Heavier will hit lower than expected and light will hit higher.


That's not necessarily correct, particularly at longer ranges. BC will make the difference. A heavier ELD or VLD may well shoot higher than a blunt lighter bullet.
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by Gaznazdiak » 06 Jan 2019, 5:57 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Gaznazdiak wrote:Heavier will hit lower than expected and light will hit higher.


That's not necessarily correct, particularly at longer ranges. BC will make the difference. A heavier ELD or VLD may well shoot higher than a blunt lighter bullet.


Definitely right there, but the wrong context, Blade.

What I was talking about was, a 51.5gn Nosler ballistic tip is going to hit lower than a Nosler ballistic tip that is exactly the advertised 50gn. They have the same BC but one might have slightly thinner case walls and a corresponding extra bit of lead.
With the same charge and BC, the heavier will hit lower.
Physics dictates it be so.
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by bigfellascott » 06 Jan 2019, 6:42 pm

Gaznazdiak wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
Gaznazdiak wrote:Heavier will hit lower than expected and light will hit higher.


That's not necessarily correct, particularly at longer ranges. BC will make the difference. A heavier ELD or VLD may well shoot higher than a blunt lighter bullet.


Definitely right there, but the wrong context, Blade.

What I was talking about was, a 51.5gn Nosler ballistic tip is going to hit lower than a Nosler ballistic tip that is exactly the advertised 50gn. They have the same BC but one might have slightly thinner case walls and a corresponding extra bit of lead.
With the same charge and BC, the heavier will hit lower.
Physics dictates it be so.


Have you tested the theory out Mick to see if it does happen? would be interesting to see just how much of a difference it makes in real hunting terms hey. :D

You are officially a resident Myth Buster :D
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by SCJ429 » 06 Jan 2019, 7:20 pm

Gaznazdiak wrote:
If the variation was in my scales and not the item being weighed, then the inconsistencies would be present in every projectile type and be of a consistent value, they are not, therefore simple logic says it's the projectiles that vary.

As to what is to be gained from batching?
Consistency. That's the point

If you have a batch of cases that all weigh 93gn and you load them all with projectiles of the same exact weight, they will perform more consistently than with pills that aren't. Heavier will hit lower than expected and light will hit higher.


I am all for batching but was asking if you get any improvement in group size by weighing the projectiles. The variation in the bearing length seems to be the variation that makes a difference on paper. I read an article written by German Salazar where he was talking about match projectiles. He indicated that the bearing length of the projectile was where uniformity was a factor in accuracy and then only if the variation was more than five thou. I have weighed Berger bullets and didn't find more than .2 of a grain difference.

I batched a number of Lapua brass by weight and used the best ones for testing and used the worst for practice. On paper and on the chrono there was no difference between the two batches. Obviously the variation between the Lapua was not terrible but there was some. I now fire all the cases and set aside ones that are more than 10 fps outside my average. This is using a known performing load.

What sort of groups are you getting with Roo Max? Do they shoot better than the Noslers or Bergers?
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by marksman » 06 Jan 2019, 7:32 pm

Gaznazdiak wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
Gaznazdiak wrote:Heavier will hit lower than expected and light will hit higher.


That's not necessarily correct, particularly at longer ranges. BC will make the difference. A heavier ELD or VLD may well shoot higher than a blunt lighter bullet.


Definitely right there, but the wrong context, Blade.

What I was talking about was, a 51.5gn Nosler ballistic tip is going to hit lower than a Nosler ballistic tip that is exactly the advertised 50gn. They have the same BC but one might have slightly thinner case walls and a corresponding extra bit of lead.
With the same charge and BC, the heavier will hit lower.
Physics dictates it be so.


IMHO you are on the right track Gaz :thumbsup:
if you think about it as long as you shoot straight you will hit a kill shot
if the distance is a bit more than you judge you will shoot lower so if the deer/roo is standing side on, or looking away from you with head high,
neck straight, if you aim at the head between the ear and eye, side on or back of the skull looking away from you and shoot low because distance is further than thought you shoot the neck, still a bang flop humane kill,
same if your projectile's are different in weight, physics turns into real world experience :drinks:

as far as internal volume capacity IMHO it can only be checked accurately by weighing the water volume :unknown:
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by Gaznazdiak » 06 Jan 2019, 8:17 pm

bigrich wrote:
bigfellascott wrote:
Gaznazdiak wrote:G'day Scott
I have noticed a distinctly different impact noise between the two, now that you mention it.
The Nosler BT have a solid copper base and make a low pitched sound like whacking the dust out of a floor mat with a broom handle, whereas the soft nose Hornady seem to produce a higher frequency, sort of like a .22 firing from 2-300m away.

The solid bases were punched right through and made them problematic to use around the sheds. The soft nose don't have this problem.

I caught one looking the wrong way last week and got him from behind from less than 40m.
I lined him up so that there was a post behind him instead of yard rail and nailed him.

Totally obliterated him, as expected, but no shrapnel in the post or rails less than 3m behind him.
I spent ages and many $ trying to get an accurate 35gn load for the sheds without success and these babies could do it all along.


Good to hear you got something that works for you mick. I found the Nosler Solid base seem to put em on the deck that little bit quicker than the others - Not sure why that was but the definitely made a Thud type sound compared to the other varieties I was testing at the time. :drinks:


i chose the nosler for it's solid base too scot , i've found vmax are a bit more explosive than i'd like . anyone found anything else that shoots well ? speer ?

:drinks: :drinks: :thumbsup:



When I first started using them I couldn't believe how much energy they deliver.

I was heading home from down the back one evening, and had passed the sheds, moved up the hill about 30m a decided to just wait to see if anyone got careless.
I was just getting out the rifle to set up on the bonnet, when no more than 55-60m away, Tony pops out for a quick vegan breakfast.
Presented with a sudden target really close, I didn't bother try to faff about resetting the scope and guesstimated the difference.

Too much. The rabbit was lying prone facing to my left, and the impact blew him at least 6 foot into the air and I thought, "Legend".

The result was amazing, the bullet went into the ground about half an inch from him and pretty much detonated right underneath him.
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It completely disemboweled him, with bits 20 feet away.

20180327_134019.jpg
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by bigfellascott » 06 Jan 2019, 8:26 pm

Got some interesting and similar results out of the 250 using the Super roos, very messy terminal performance, to say the least, this one stood up on its back legs to have a look around. The only thing holding the top and bottom together were a couple of strips of skin :D

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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by Gaznazdiak » 06 Jan 2019, 10:12 pm

The amazing thing is though, the bullet itself didn't hit him, it hit the dirt underneath him and the force of the dirt blowing upward from the impact is what gutted him.

First time I've ever killed something I clean missed.
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by Gaznazdiak » 06 Jan 2019, 10:46 pm

SCJ429 wrote:
What sort of groups are you getting with Roo Max? Do they shoot better than the Noslers or Bergers?


3 Roo Max @ 100m
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I discovered later that the high flyer was caused when it passed through my clothesline on the way.
I had moved it out of the way but the wind had blown it back into the trajectory but not in view in the scope.
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Below is the best Nosler group, 5 @ 100m
The flyer here was probably one of my brain injury wobbles, square is 1"

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As to group size, yes I get smaller more consistent groups when I batch both brass and pills.

The Bergers were 70gn and the only way I could get accuracy from my 9 twist was too drive them too hard giving pressure signs so I now stick to 55gn for hunting and the ~62gn ADI SS109s for plinking.
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by bigrich » 07 Jan 2019, 4:44 am

Careful gaz , I don’t know if it’s legal to cull clothesline’s

:lol: :lol: :thumbsup:
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by bigfellascott » 07 Jan 2019, 6:07 am

Gaznazdiak wrote:The amazing thing is though, the bullet itself didn't hit him, it hit the dirt underneath him and the force of the dirt blowing upward from the impact is what gutted him.

First time I've ever killed something I clean missed.


:lol: :lol: :lol: love it. Pretty sure I've done similar too.
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by Gaznazdiak » 07 Jan 2019, 9:07 am

bigrich wrote:Careful gaz , I don’t know if it’s legal to cull clothesline’s

:lol: :lol: :thumbsup:


The vegan home appliance rights group will probably confiscate it and take it to a new home, make me use a piece of rope instead :lol: :lol: :drinks:
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by Gaznazdiak » 07 Jan 2019, 9:17 am

bigfellascott wrote:
Gaznazdiak wrote:The amazing thing is though, the bullet itself didn't hit him, it hit the dirt underneath him and the force of the dirt blowing upward from the impact is what gutted him.

First time I've ever killed something I clean missed.


:lol: :lol: :lol: love it. Pretty sure I've done similar too.


Shot my own motorbike when I was a young bloke,.
I'd left it and continued where I was going of foot for noise reasons.
On the way back I took a wild shot at a running rabbit with my trusty Model 04, missed completely and thought nothing of it.
Got back to the bike, about 500m downhill and was riding home when I noticed the new hole in one side of my headlight housing.
Didn't do any damage other than just manage to punch the hole, but it stuck in my mind about how far even a .22 can go if you don't consider your downrange. :oops:
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by brinny » 08 Jan 2019, 4:35 pm

Probably come in a bit late on this post...but I have a Sako 85 in 223 and have put literally thousands of rounds through it and never once has it had an ejection issue....It has a SS varmint barrel in it, not that that would make any difference....and to be honest i havent heard of anyone having dramas with them ejecting....I have been that impressed with the 85s i bought another two....Both in 204, one to rebarrel into 17 rem....Sako 85 would be my choice if considering one
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by TassieTiger » 08 Jan 2019, 8:08 pm

Is this going to run 20 pages?? Is it??
Well....223 steyr is still shooting golf balls at 220 no worries at all. I’m bloody happy with it. I believe that’s the max distance for the AR scope for golf balls - I do have a Leupold 6-18/40 awaiting the return of my 30/06 and have thought about seeing just how far I can push the 223 with that scope but I don’t want to mess up what I currently have either lol
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by straightshooter » 09 Jan 2019, 6:28 am

I wonder, has the original poster found his best 223 yet?
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by Daddybang » 09 Jan 2019, 6:31 am

straightshooter wrote:I wonder, has the original poster found his best 223 yet?
:unknown:


Yep...a .22 hornet!!!! :lol: :drinks:
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by Peter988 » 09 Jan 2019, 8:25 am

I am tossing up at the moment between a CZ 527 American, Ruger 77 Hawkeye, Sauer 100 Classic or a Tikka T3x Hunter. All similarly priced. All have good reviews. Haven’t handled any so when I do, that might help with a decision. But otherwise it’s a tough choice. Decisions decisions.
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 09 Jan 2019, 9:22 am

Howa 223...get a decent stock for it like a boyds or grs or krg or even the new mdt one if you so inclined. Or keep the standard houge stock
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by PaddyT » 09 Jan 2019, 9:33 am

Daddybang wrote:
straightshooter wrote:I wonder, has the original poster found his best 223 yet?
:unknown:


Yep...a .22 hornet!!!! :lol: :drinks:

And how long before hes back for advice on his second?
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by TassieTiger » 09 Jan 2019, 4:01 pm

I heard a law was just passed ruling out 22 hornets for any game shooting? It was legal when the thread started but times change.... :sarcasm:
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by Islander7 » 09 Jan 2019, 4:11 pm

TassieTiger wrote:I heard a law was just passed ruling out 22 hornets for any game shooting? It was legal when the thread started but times change.... :sarcasm:


Nice one Tiger :), then we would do another 15 pages looking for something in between .22Hornet and .223

By the way, finally bought the scope today. After all the research I decided to go with Meopta Meostar R1r 3-12 x56mm with illuminated reticle. Found one on special for just $1k. Reviews suggest that optically they are up there with the best ones, and since 99% of shooting will be done during first and last legal hour I definitely wanted to go 56mm. The next ones I truly liked were at least twice more expensive, I simply couldn't justify that much spending. After all, you guys may be right, and I'll need a budget for another gun in a couple of months :)
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 09 Jan 2019, 5:28 pm

Aww man i thought you had left. ... j/k
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by bladeracer » 09 Jan 2019, 6:00 pm

Islander7 wrote:...you guys may be right, and I'll need a budget for another gun in a couple of months :)


I think he's hooked!!!!
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by SCJ429 » 09 Jan 2019, 7:31 pm

You could ask about a 204 Ruger and end up with a 300 RUM.
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Re: Help me to choose best rifle in .223

Post by TassieTiger » 09 Jan 2019, 8:21 pm

I really want to buy a 338 lap to shoot maybe 20 shots and then sell lol
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