Help me to choose best rifle in .223

[bigfellascott]

The big old Nightforce will help tame the barking recoil of that fire breathing Hornet. That NXS is world class optic, worth keeping for life. I have a couple of S&B and Ziess which have fantastic glass but I would not call Nightforce, Japanese, glass inferior just different. That said I don't have a low magnification Nightforce to compare apples with apples. However when comparing high powered Khales and S&B with Nightforce I preferred the latter and voted with my feet. Almost every competition shooter has done something similar and even March has failed to capture much market share.

Predominately a target shooter mate? seems to be a lot of scopes I'd recommend for target shooting more so than the average hunting situation?

I see flyer finally admitted to being more target shooting orientated rather than what his poor bastard need which is a scope for hunting use at short ranges.

[SCJ429]

I don't do much hunting in summer, more of a winter sport for me. I find I am a much better hunter after practicing at the range. After seeing the poor standard of shooting displayed by hunters I would encourage them to practice regulally at the range. There are specific disciplines for hunters such as field rifle and Metalic shillhoutte. It is also a great place to get use to your scope, learn how to read wind and to find a load that delivers the best accuracy.

I also enjoy competing against the best shooters in Australia. I understand that this is not everyone's cup of tea. This does not mean that I have no clue for what works in a hunting situation. I have had my fair share of success in the field, even with scopes you may consider unsuitable.

[Flyer]

Yeah, can't argue with that - there's a reason you see so many Nightforces on the line. But for carrying around, I just prefer something a bit lighter myself.

Ol mates only interested in shooting a few sheep each year for food and a few rabbits too, not exactly requiring high mag scopes to do especially if he's using an outdated cartridge like a 22 hornet which is good for around 200m or so, not exacly something that needs high mag unless ya mr magoo, then it might be necesary?

Haha! Yeah, we know. I hope I don't sound like a scope snob. Living in the People's Republic of Western Australia, owning a lot of rifles is a luxury most of us don't have. As a consequence, I've ended up with fewer firearms, but a bit more money to spread between them. I spend a fair amount of time behind my scopes at the range, so it's better for my eyes. That's my excuse, anyway

[Flyer]

Hey, full disclosure - I said I was mainly a target shooter on Page 12. Or was it Page 120???

Like SCJ429 said, Field Rifle is hunting practice.

[bigfellascott]

Hey, full disclosure - I said I was mainly a target shooter on Page 12. Or was it Page 120???

Like SCJ429 said, Field Rifle is hunting practice.

Without saying it was obvious, the recommending high mag scopes for a 22 Hornet which will be used for Hunting purposes was a dead giveaway

[bigfellascott]

I don't do much hunting in summer, more of a winter sport for me. I find I am a much better hunter after practicing at the range. After seeing the poor standard of shooting displayed by hunters I would encourage them to practice regulally at the range. There are specific disciplines for hunters such as field rifle and Metalic shillhoutte. It is also a great place to get use to your scope, learn how to read wind and to find a load that delivers the best accuracy.

I also enjoy competing against the best shooters in Australia. I understand that this is not everyone's cup of tea. This does not mean that I have no clue for what works in a hunting situation. I have had my fair share of success in the field, even with scopes you may consider unsuitable.

Yeah I'd imagine a lot of those people who visit ranges to shoot would mainly be from the city/suburbia and never really grew up around firearms and hunting in general so they need all the help they can get I'd imagine.

What are you hunting in Winter?

[Flyer]

I shoot next to - literally - the best Field Rifle and 3P shooters in Australia. They hold national records and often shoot perfect targets. I don't think they need much help.

[bigfellascott]

I shoot next to - literally - the best Field Rifle and 3P shooters in Australia. They hold national records and often shoot perfect targets. I don't think they need much help.

[Flyer]

Just sayin'.

We've seen your results, so we know you don't need the practice, either

[Daddybang]

Ol mates only interested in shooting a few sheep each year for food and a few rabbits too, not exactly requiring high mag scopes to do especially if he's using an outdated cartridge like a 22 hornet which is good for around 200m or so, not exacly something that needs high mag unless ya mr magoo, then it might be necesary?

Yep I use two 3-9x40 a set 6x and a 1x red dot. ..never felt the need for more magnification .. recently starting to stretch out on target shooting(something I've never really done much of) I can see the need for more but not when hunting/culling unless you deliberately set up for five hundred yard shots which is not gonna happen with a .22hornet !!

[bigfellascott]

Just sayin'.

We've seen your results, so we know you don't need the practice, either

I’m no target shooter that’s for sure I go alright in the paddock though.

[SCJ429]

Of course hunting is much more than being able to hit what you are aiming at. Nothing can make up for time spent in the paddock reading sign, understanding where your animal will be at particular times of day. Making sure the wind does not give you away and using cover to conceal your presence. Then you might get to make a shot.

For the skills of making that shot their is nothing like practicing to help you improve. Many people don't like to do this in competition. You cannot hide your results and everyone gets to see them. It can be very humbling and you need to be open to new ideas. The average guy will find it hard to believe how well some people can shoot or how poor their results are when they try. I see Metalic Silhouette shooters knocking over the Rams at 500 with ease, try to do it myself and at first I could not hit a single one.

The good thing about the range, and the Internet is you get new ideas and ways of doing things. It is up to the individual to keep an open mind and make an informed choice. I commend the OP for listening to the posts and considering all the options.

[Member-Deleted]

I don't shoot targets as a hobby I get my practice from hunting more and can hit a bread and butter plate @ 600yds with 7mm mag
so don't think everybody has to practice on the range to shoot well
It goes without saying practice makes perfect but there are people out there that are exceptional shots from the start because they have
grown up with rifles and don't have all the things to fine tune ammo for shooting competition
Hunters use pretty much run of the mill ammo so how can you compare them to a comp shooter ? Big statement

[Flyer]

Well I guess the question is, when you shoot that dinner plate, are you using a bipod or rest?

We shoot metallic silhouettes at 500m . . . offhand. No support. The targets are a bit bigger than a dinner plate, but they also weigh 70kg, and if you hit one and it doesn't go down, it doesn't count, so you need to use a large enough calibre to do it.

There are "big statements" and then there are results. Target shooters hand-load because some put a couple of thousand rounds or more downrange each year. Talking about ammo is a bit of a non-sequitur in any case, because if your ammo is s**t, you're not going to hit anything - except by chance or luck. And certainly not consistently. Round after round after round into an X ring.

I picked up two gold medals in my class at the last state field rifle championships. Both by one point. Out of 400. After coming from behind both times on the last target. That's not a brag, it just shows how close it can be and how much you have to keep your nerve in competition. Medals are decided by fractions of an inch over 42 shots. And it's all offhand or leaning against a post - no bipods, benches or supports.

I'm not taking anything away from hunters. And I wasn't joking about bigfellascott - he's a good shot. But I totally agree with SCJ429. I've been that humbled guy (many, many times). But you truly don't know what a rifle and shooter are capable of until you stand next to a guy who can shoot the eye out of humming bird at 100m offhand 19 times out of 20 in 3P. And that's not even an exaggeration.

[solarpak]

My personal opinion....
shooting targets and hunting........completely different scenarios and exercises......

There is no consequence if you shoot at a paper or steel target poorly.......but shoot at an animal poorly and the consequences can be a wounded animal ....
which is something NO ETHICAL HUNTER would ever want.

However the current boom in Long Range target shooting is a great one at that for shooting sports in general but when these sportsmen try to emulate long range shots at distances 300m + in a hunting scenario , you must be 100% sure of your ability as well as equipment and reading the wind and environmental conditions.

I do know of quite a few highly experienced hunters who can shoot out to 800 metres - mostly on varmints- with complete success but to see the amount of great they use makes their task much easier. But for the inexperienced long range shooter - keep shooting at paper and steel ....

Personally - i dont see the need to shoot any animal over 300 metres - thats why they call it hunting and stalking.....

CK

[SCJ429]

I don't shoot targets as a hobby I get my practice from hunting more and can hit a bread and butter plate @ 600yds with 7mm mag
Hunters use pretty much run of the mill ammo so how can you compare them to a comp shooter ? Big statement

Nice shooting, I shot a fly at 500 metres with a factory Tikka in 223, that same rifle has shot heaps of foxes one at nearly 400 metres. I could not have made that shot without practicing.

Most of the hunters I know reload and they try to get the most out of their hunting ammo. One told me that he liked his ES to be under 20 fps for hunting. I find half the fun is getting it right in the reloading room.

If factory ammo allows you to bring something home to put in the freezer then that is great and more power to you. Everyone gets different things out of the sport. Sometimes I go on a hunt and don't fire a shot, still have fun and see some interesting things.

[marksman]

a lot of the debates about what is needed or acceptable for hunting comes from people thinking of the way they hunt
some people think that the only real form of hunting is stalking through the bush sneaking up on game, shooting then tracking
most people do not practice for this type of hunting but I have come across a couple who go to the range and set up dots at 50m shooting off the shoulder with very low magnification scopes, I take my hat off to these guy's who get very proficient by doing this
I myself think that varminting and precision hunting at distance is hunting as well, and this is where you would get good experience from target shooting
because you learn how to shoot at distance and shoot in all real world conditions, especially if you are using the rifle intended for hunting
I have never shot in a competition ever, the reason being I cannot afford to do it to a level I would like be shooting at
I get my practice on paper, hunting and culling, when culling it has to be done with precision, but I try to do the job the same as if I were group shooting on paper, there is no mediocre, I believe to practice like you hunt and you will hunt like you practice
I use Leopold, Meopta and a couple of Nightforce scopes for hunting

IMHO get the best you can for what you are doing
my daughters 22 hornet wears a Zeiss conquest hd5 3-15x50 scope and I dont see that as to much scope for her

[Oldbloke]

"IMHO get the best you can for what you are doing
my daughters 22 hornet wears a Zeiss conquest hd5 3-15x50 scope and I dont see that as to much scope for her "

I would think it's plenty.
Personally using a 3-9 x 40 on my 223. For distances up to about 200 yards. Depends on use of course. And I could see the use for a 4-12.

[Member-Deleted]

Good on you Flyer well done but I was commenting on how different either shooting was to each other also the comment that SCJ429
said and I quote '' After seeing the poor standard of shooting showed by hunters I would encourage them to practice regularly at the range ''
That was the big statement putting all hunters into one package
Where do these hunters come from I don't know any hunters that would purposely wound an animal by a stupid shot
I would say most hunters shoot to their capabilities feral hunters ,meat hunters ,dangerous animals you name it
I dare say you would find just as many unexperienced people in the long range shooting as in the hunters so with the best of the two i'd hazard a guess a long range shooter would come out on top as far as shooting goes as was said they shoot thousands of rounds to stay on top of their game a hunter on the other hand
would shoot hundreds and can still shoot well enough to get the job done he doesn't have to shoot to 800-1000 yds
There are many hunters that can shoot to 600 and beyond comfortably but that in my eyes is not ethical hunting because too many things can go wrong for me
and you could end up with a wounded animal

Some of the long distance hunters I know started out long distance target shooting and the most animals I have seen and heard lost have come from those blokes
because of wrong choice of caliber-bullet ,bad choice of poi and uncontrollable conditions all the general problems of long distance shooting
I agree that long distance shooting at paper would make a better shooter at distance but I for one don't need it and thousands of hunters don't need it because we like to be recognised for our ethical hunting abilities like not taking unethical shots at animals
All I ask is don't put us hunters in the lower class of shooter because someone can shoot better at further distances in a different class because the two
are nothing alike

[Flyer]

No, not at all. I have the greatest respect for ethical hunters. Because a successful hunter knows their equipment - and part of knowing your equipment is knowing your limitations. Just because you can shoot a goat-sized target offhand at 500m doesn't mean you should try it on a real goat!

I think this all started with a bit of tongue-in-cheek banter about cowboy hunters vs city-slicker range shooters. As long as we all keep in mind its just a bit of gentle humour, I'm sure we can all respect each other's positions.

[Member-Deleted]

Too right we can Flyer mate my thoughts exactly respect is a wonderful thing when used even with ones opinions
cheers

[Strikey]

So,,,have we got an answer for ol' mate on what is the best 223 rifle for him????

[bigrich]

So,,,have we got an answer for ol' mate on what is the best 223 rifle for him????

ok , so he's decided on a good qaulity 22 hornet ( still a weihrauch ? ) , they can be silly accurate with handloading , best factory ammo for me islander was 46 gn winchester hp's ( these shot under 20mm for me regularly at 100 ) ,or rem hp's . because your targets may be small and this rifle can shoot out to 200, i would recommend a 4-12 x 40 as a minimum . a nice vx-3 leupold 4.5-14 x 40 would be nice . a qaulity 22lr will be great for bunny busting and is something to practice on , doesn't make a lot of noise and you can shoot all afternoon for $10. a steyr zephr 2, cz 452 , lithgow maybe ? . leupold 3-9x40 freedom rimfire specific scopes are nice and have a balistic duplex for hold over at distance. i love the one on my cz and found it better with clearer optics the similar priced scopes IMHO . trying to sort through everyone's opinions is probably as bigger job as choosing a rifle for poor old islander

[SCJ429]

Good on you Flyer well done but I was commenting on how different either shooting was to each other also the comment that SCJ429
said and I quote '' After seeing the poor standard of shooting showed by hunters I would encourage them to practice regularly at the range ''
That was the big statement putting all hunters into one package
Where do these hunters come from I don't know any hunters that would purposely wound an animal by a stupid shot

I certainly did not mean to lump all hunters into a poor shooter category. I have friends that have no interest in competition shooting but they practice regularly.. They understand their capabilities and those of their rifles. They can produce groups better than 1/2 with ease.

Unfortunately we have all seen guys who couldn't hit the side of a barn door with a bucket of wheat. A friend runs the qualifications for farmer assist. The results are woeful, when asked to produce a one inch group at 100, 90% of these guys cannot do it. You see groups of over five inches, I worry about the shots these guys have made on game when shooting in the paddock at unknown distances and in uncomfortable shooting positions. These guys need to practice at a range.

[Daddybang]

From another perspective I've taken more than one "range"shooter out hunting and while they're quite capable of putting a clover leaf into paper at 400 couldn't get one round into a pigs head at a hundred. Things like adrenaline and crosshair fever can do strange things to a normally capable shooters ability. As has been said above trying to compare the two is pretty fruitless imo.

[bigrich]

From another perspective I've taken more than one "range"shooter out hunting and while they're quite capable of putting a clover leaf into paper at 400 couldn't get one round into a pigs head at a hundred. Things like adrenaline and crosshair fever can do strange things to a normally capable shooters ability. As has been said above trying to compare the two is pretty fruitless imo.

you're spot on there DB. i've only recently got back into shooting/hunting after a 30 year break , and while i've practiced being a capable shot at the range, it's a whole different thing out in the paddock. i had to move quickly at times to get a better angle/view on goats , and between huffing and puffing and adrenaline i've missed some shots because of this. but i'm learning my limitations , remembering mistakes and try not to make them twice. learning my personal limits as well as my rifles limits , ethics and common sense in these things are my goal as well. with a little more experience these days, i find some attitudes and comments i hear at the range pretty funny and sometimes disturbing. definately makes things interesting.........

[SCJ429]

I can't say I do my best shooting after climbing up a hill and the heart rate is around 150 bpm. I bloke who cannot shoot under ideal conditions is not going to come good in the paddock. They end up shooting the jaw off some poor animal and leave it to an agonising death. That is why everyone needs a 22lr and plink off 50 shots every week to keep their skills up.

[TassieTiger]

And if your really keen? with that .22? do 10 push ups, jump up and take 10 shots in 30 secs @ 100 off hand...let me know your group size - I don’t think I hit the earth the first time I did this...

[bigrich]

I can't say I do my best shooting after climbing up a hill and the heart rate is around 150 bpm. I bloke who cannot shoot under ideal conditions is not going to come good in the paddock. They end up shooting the jaw off some poor animal and leave it to an agonising death. That is why everyone needs a 22lr and plink off 50 shots every week to keep their skills up.

agree with ya there mate . shot placement is a can of worms topic, in my case, until i'm confident to do so, i take heart/lung shots as there is greater room for error than head shots . my rifles at the range can shoot great groups, but the last thing i want is injured game taking off. i also try to make sure when i reload that i'm using the right projectile for the job. i'm going back to soft point projectiles ( 125gn nosler partitions) ,over super accurate ballistic tips in my 6.5 as i'm of the opinion that the soft point i'm using will be more flexable as a all round projectile on different game weights. JMHO .

[bigfellascott]

I don't do off hand shots these days, just to unsteady on my feet now so I just find something to steady the shot with, whether that be my bipod, a tree, rock, some part of a vehicle, backpack etc, I don't care if I do or don't shoot an animal anymore, but when I do I want to make sure to the best of my ability that it will be a one shot deal cos I'm not physically up to chasing after a wounded animal, if I can't get a decent shot on em they can walk as far as I'm concerned, I'm not that desperate to shoot em!