Help me to choose best rifle in .223

[Oldbloke]

Well unless you're a competitive grade shooter, most decent rifles will be far more capable than the average, casual shooter.

I'm not casting aspersions here Islander, I don't know you, but the above being the case why pay extra for what will most likely only be a psychological difference.
Why not go for a good mid range brand like a 24" Howa and put the extra dollars into a really good glass?

I'm only an average shooter, with shakes and wobbles from a brain injury and I have managed one hole groups at 100 with my Howa .223.

It always sounds good to go for "the best you can afford", but only if the extra money it costs you gets you a substantive measurably better result.
The again, some like to buy the most expensive they can manage because the price paid is the attraction.
Whatever bloats your goat Islander, and makes you happy with it. Have fun looking, buying a new gun is always exciting.
My 2 cents.

+1

[Stix]

I dont have much experience with "modern" rifles apart from Tikka's & Sako's....so im in no position to comment on experience with other brands of new rifles.

In my opinion, out of those 2 options, & given your budget & intended use, it would be Sako hands down.

I do a lot of--or should i say, 99% of my hunting (shooting fur) is done from a car, driving around late afternoon & with a spotlight..(foxes & bunnies).& for this i mostly use a Tikka T3.

Let me tell you, not being able to top load with the Tikka is becoming painful.
I didnt think it would be a problem, but the amount of times i chamber a round upon pulling up on a fox or titchy bunny, & then have to unload the firearm & remove the magazine to put round back in mag is an annoyance.
Then there is the occasional time you drop a round from all the magazine fiddling & it slips down the side of the seat, &/or you've had the door open & you're not sure if it landed in or out of the car & end up spending time looking for it...
It may sound like im exagerating, but im sure those that do a lot of this type of shooting will vouch for what im saying.

With the Sako, it would be straight back in the top, hold the round down & slide the bolt forward for a safe empty chamber

So top load through ejection port is, in my opinion, a very important feature for a varmint rifle if budget comfortably allows.

Aside from that other potential suggestions i could offer are...
i know a guy who has a Kimber (only a sporter barrel for a walk about hunting rifle, where you may want a heavy barrel)...with a Swarovski Z6i 3-18 a top...
Not only does it look the goods, but it delivers too--its a VERY nice outfit to handle.

And, what about Cooper rifles...?
Does one of them fit within the budget...?

As has also been suggested, there is a custom build--you could buy a second hand rifle & drop it straight to a smith for re-barreling..

Let us know what you end up with & how it performs...

[Islander7]

So many answers in just a couple of hours, thanks guys for everyone's opinion!

TassieTiger, thanks, your description of Steyr sounds like what I'm after. I quickly checked Winchester website and see that they only come in synthetic stock. Unfortunatelly for me, I strongly dislike synthetic stocks, must me laminate, or wooden at least. But thanks for the suggestion anyway!

Bigrich, stainless laminated Tikka T3x is still not out of question, if I can't find anything 'better'.

SCJ429, buying second hand premium rifle with a 'test drive' was my initial plan, however here in Tassie it's an almost impossible task...

knowsnothin, I'm pretty confident that it will be first and last rifle, as I have millions of various hobbies, I tend to do deep research and then buy just one 'high end' thing that will last and it lasts for at least a decade or more for me (be it a telescope, kayak, boat, fishing gear, hi-fi audio etc), some of the things I expect to last a lifetime, like my kitchen knives. If I keep changing/upgrading stuff regularly, it will be very pricey

Gaznazdiak, thanks for the warm words, I know it's mostly psychological difference. But same can be said about everything else, like cars for example, some people are happy with toyotas, some want something 'better'.

Hey islander.
Have you had much experience with firearms?
I’m assuming you haven’t and your looking for the “one and only” and you wanna make sure your money is wisely spent and that’s fair enough.

You are assuming correctly, the only experience I have is with AK47 and some handguns in the army, zero experience with hunting and bolt rifles.

Looks like I'm still back to drawing board, with Sako85 and Tikka T3x...if only I could try out Sako before buying...

[Stoney]

Bigrich, stainless laminated Tikka T3x is still not out of question, if I can't find anything 'better'.

Don't listen to bigrich he's a snob. If it's not a Winchester or Sako it couldn't possibly shoot.
I have both Steyr .308 and Tikka .233 and both shoot 3 shot clover groups@ 100, out of the box with the right factory ammo.

[albat]

forget the one rifle scenario, it just dont happen anyone on here will tell you that! .223? for a one trick pony?, theres better choices.

[Islander7]

Let me tell you, not being able to top load with the Tikka is becoming painful.
I didnt think it would be a problem, but the amount of times i chamber a round upon pulling up on a fox or titchy bunny, & then have to unload the firearm & remove the magazine to put round back in mag is an annoyance.
Then there is the occasional time you drop a round from all the magazine fiddling & it slips down the side of the seat, &/or you've had the door open & you're not sure if it landed in or out of the car & end up spending time looking for it...
It may sound like im exagerating, but im sure those that do a lot of this type of shooting will vouch for what im saying.

With the Sako, it would be straight back in the top, hold the round down & slide the bolt forward for a safe empty chamber

So top load through ejection port is, in my opinion, a very important feature for a varmint rifle if budget comfortably allows.

Thanks for sharing your opinion and experience, then its sako85 for me out of this two..

I others in my list that I'm currently researching are:
Kimber 84m
Anschutz 1771
Remington 700vls
Ruger 77 hawkeye predator
Lighgow la102 - crossed out due to latest recall...

[Member-Deleted]

G'day Islander mate I have a sako 85 s/s laminated stock although it's in 22-250 but that's nothing as the 223 would be built the same
I have a Zeiss 3x12-50 scope on it and it's the only thing I would change on the rifle mind you nothing wrong with it except when I shoot out further the X hair
is a little harder to use so i'd go with a scope with ballistic turrets or etched reticle for out there shots can't fault the 85 and she does a lot of work
the only problem with the rifle was the stock after having it for about 6-8 weeks the clear on the stock started peeling of in big flakes like 1'' flakes and today
is still peeling as sako and the dealership said it wasn't warranty and after 9years it's still the only fault with that rifle haven't heard of any others having that problem
so don't think you could go wrong with the 85 model sako other than a build to your spec's by a gunsmith
Mate you say you have used the AK47 in the army would it be rude of me to ask what army you were in although i'm sorry if it's a personal question
Cheers

[Islander7]

forget the one rifle scenario, it just dont happen anyone on here will tell you that! .223? for a one trick pony?, theres better choices.

Rabbits and wallabies are all I'm ever going to shoot (on my 100+ acres property), and once a year culling a sheep. 223 is plenty for all that imo

[bigrich]

Bigrich, stainless laminated Tikka T3x is still not out of question, if I can't find anything 'better'.

Don't listen to bigrich he's a snob. If it's not a Winchester or Sako it couldn't possibly shoot.
I have both Steyr .308 and Tikka .233 and both shoot 3 shot clover groups@ 100, out of the box with the right factory ammo.

umm, i actually did suggest the tikka to him mate, based on what i've seen of rifles like your tikka and others, but he's not keen on the poly mag

[bigrich]

if it was me go the sako 85. or find a second hand 75. thinking out of the box , what about the kimber ? mauser style action, come in a variety of bedded stocks . supposed to be a good thing ? maybe a higher grade weatherby than the vangaurd . they have a good reputation for accuracy and don't have a lot of plastic in them . you said you don't like plastic mags, that rules a lot of rifles out, including the stainless laminate tikka t3 which would be my choice at the bottom end of price

[bigrich]

Let me tell you, not being able to top load with the Tikka is becoming painful.
I didnt think it would be a problem, but the amount of times i chamber a round upon pulling up on a fox or titchy bunny, & then have to unload the firearm & remove the magazine to put round back in mag is an annoyance.
Then there is the occasional time you drop a round from all the magazine fiddling & it slips down the side of the seat, &/or you've had the door open & you're not sure if it landed in or out of the car & end up spending time looking for it...
It may sound like im exagerating, but im sure those that do a lot of this type of shooting will vouch for what im saying.

With the Sako, it would be straight back in the top, hold the round down & slide the bolt forward for a safe empty chamber

So top load through ejection port is, in my opinion, a very important feature for a varmint rifle if budget comfortably allows.

Thanks for sharing your opinion and experience, then its sako85 for me out of this two..

I others in my list that I'm currently researching are:
Kimber 84m
Anschutz 1771
Remington 700vls
Ruger 77 hawkeye predator
Lighgow la102 - crossed out due to latest recall...

out of your list the kimber would do me

[Islander7]

Mate you say you have used the AK47 in the army would it be rude of me to ask what army you were in although i'm sorry if it's a personal question
Cheers

No problems here, it was Ukrainian army in late 90s (everything still was Soviet Union style back then in the army). It was compulsory and that probably was the reason why I hated it

[Member-Deleted]

Thanks Islander mate for the return post cheers
And there were some trying times back then mate hope you are happy doing what you're doing now and best of luck in finding a 223 to
your liking ''Cheers''

[TassieTiger]

I usually kind of frown on ppl simply recommending exactly what they have as it’s always a biased opinion-but I’m going to suggest a steyr varmint pro.
They are about $2400 and come with a set trigger / normal trigger and a 3 position safety, including a “storage” feature where the bolt handle pulls down really low as to not catch in safes or bags, etc. the set trigger is freaking amazing - can dial it to 100 grams of pull if you want. Or use normal trigger at adjustable and around 1kg.
They are a 1:9 twist so can take 70gn projectiles. Mine will shoot golf balls dead at insane distances for me (250m). The bolt and action are machined perfectly, like glass - maybe too slick at times.
The barrel is a semi heavy unit - can fire a good amount before it gets hot...is it a walker? Maybe a bit heavy but that’s why it’s soaccurate and can shoot multiples.
The spiral fluting on barrel is not to everyone’s liking but it’s different.
Steyr have a guarantee to shoot better than Moa with factory ammo, but mine is 1/4 to 1/2 with 24gns ar2206h with 55 hornady ballistic.

Yes, sako, tikka are regarded highly, but if your wanting something a little different...?
Ps - do not confuse this with a steyr pro hunter. Very different rifles and performance is not really comparable.

...?
Tassie...mate...really...???
Where would we be without people sharing their "biased"opinions of the firearms (or anything) they own...
Given they own them, the opinions are MOST often based on experience rather than hoohaa...& that is exactly the kind of recommendations we should want..doesnt mean we need to take them, but educated experienced based opinions are better than taking on board some third hand crap a clown dribbles.
Ive found most people on here dont hold back with their opinions, particularly when it comes to poor quality or features they dont like/poor design etc, which is a really good thing, & equally as good as praising something we own, use & admire...

Probably could have worded that a lot better...I’ll try and convey what I meant...
At the time of writing, I over heard a colleague at work was telling someone that his Remington 783 was the best sub 1000 rifle currently available, that he had researched all brands, etc and his 783 was the ducks guts...etc. the guy he was talking too, didn’t really know any better and started asking RE prices, where he could get one etc and I was sitting their thinking - he is recommending this gun, solely because he owns one of them (I know for a fact this guy with the 783 has put maybe 60 shots through it - shoots two/three times a year)...then I started thinking - there is actually quite a few ppl who do that - who, because they bought one, they feel the need to promote their “purchase” - but not on the guns merits - just because they own one.
Okay. I’m struggling to convey this - because I’ve hypocritically then suggested a rifle I own but, I tried to sell the merits of the fire arm honestly, and 99.9% of the members on here do like wise...and that’s what I screwed up trying to say to op - but he didn’t see or hear the conversation that I did RE the 783...I really like the way many members say, I bought xxx it’s great at xxxx but in all honesty it’s crap in xxx. That type of honesty is not a common thing anymore...
I’m still struggling aren’t I...?!?
It’s been a long few days...

[bigrich]

it's all good tas. the thing about a forum is it's about exchanges of views, ideas, opinions, and personal preference ( bias ? ) ya not the first to word something not quite right to get ya point across, ya won't be the last. where things go wrong is when ya get opinionated folk who can't respect other peoples right to their point of view . I whole heartedly agree with stix on the handiness of being able to top load , and closing the bolt on a empty chamber. which is why i like my winchester's and sako's . with the sako a7 and the 85 ( 75's as well ? ) you can top load AND they have a removable mag ,. plastic with metal feed lips in the a7, all steel in the 85. there are other similar actions out there , but these are my favorites . if i had the coin , i wouldn't mind a kimber .from what i can recall reading, their a copy of a controlled round feed model 70 win ? so keep those opinions flowing, islander sounds like he's keen to take it all in.

[Blr243]

One with a nice fat heavy barrel that doesn’t wobble around all over the place

[marksman]

IMHO

I would buy a ss howa 1500 varmint 223, you can get them for about $739, 5 shot, 24" barrel, free pic rail


then I would buy the howa wooden varmint stock for $299 off them


I would have it all sent to a gunsmith to swap the trigger for a better one, timneytriggers.com/howa-trigger-upgrade/
bed the action and rechamber the barrel for a match grade custom chamber and recrown
of coarse when the barrel is fitted the action is refaced true and square, bolt lapped ect...
this will give you the best chance for a real shooter
IMHO you would never look backwards and will have change from your budget of $3000-$3500

[Stix]

All good Tassie. ..im crap at conveying what i mean...hell ive become accustomed to the taste of boot leather around women...

i really wasnt having a go mate, & glad (hope) you can see that.. .

[bladeracer]

Almost got my licence and ready to buy my first rifle. Will be used 99% for varmint control/hunting. This most probably will be my first, the only one, and last rifle, so I want to find and buy the absolute best within my price. Not planning to sell it or buy another in the next many many years.

My requirements are:
- .223
- Wood or Laminate stock
- stainless steel barrel (preferable, but can live with blued if the gun is exceptional otherwise)
- must be reliable, with no known issues.
- must pe very accurate out of the box.
- must last a lifetime

I'm comfortable with spending anywhere between $1500 and $3500 just for the rifle. Just want to buy once, buy right, don't care much about money at this stage.

Initially I was going to just buy Sako 85 and be done with it, but deeper research revealed a known and well-documented ejection issues with some of their rifles that Beretta doesn't consider a warranty issue. I understand that it's an exceptional rifle otherwise, but personally don't want to gamble.

If not Sako 85, what else would you consider?

If you're just starting out I would suggest a different direction, borrow or buy several different designs and see if something particularly suits you, then buy the highest-quality in a similar design. You can buy something that has a fantastic reputation, only to discover it's just no fun to shoot.

[solarpak]

Buy a standard howa m1500 (not the mini action) and save yourself a bundle.....they shoot as good as any rifle with 55 grain loads. (with the 1 in 12 twist)

Yes the sako problem is certainly true - i parted ways with my sako 85 in 223 for exactly that reason....

If you want something swanky one of the Tikka T3x's will serve you well - but again they are around the $1500 mark....
A howa will set you back half that and shoot as well as anything - and last you a long time...
CK

[TassieTiger]

All good Tassie. ..im crap at conveying what i mean...hell ive become accustomed to the taste of boot leather around women...

i really wasnt having a go mate, & glad (hope) you can see that.. .

Not at all mate - on re reading what I’d written, I’m glad a few ppl called me on it. I’d made a mistake in trying to convey what I meant to try and say and it read hypocritical and wrong. As you’ve said - I often put my foot in it, but usually - I have good intent, I’m just tripping over getting there lol

I know many would disagree, but If there were a simple and convenient way for it to happen and if others were on board, I’d lend/post any of my rifles to quite a few of the long standing members on here for a week or two, if it would help them make a better and informed decision about a future purchase...I know that you and many others on here, would respect mine as their own and look after them - use them as to understand shortcomings / positives and then return in same condition - but alas with dealers having to be the middle men (charging handling) and postage costs, it’s not really viable...
Cheers.

[SCJ429]

Buy a standard howa m1500 (not the mini action) and save yourself a bundle.....they shoot as good as any rifle with 55 grain loads. (with the 1 in 12 twist)
CK

I have not seen any outstanding results when guys use a Howa, the barrels are OK but don't come close to what I have seen from Tikka or Sako barrels. What size groups do you get from your Howa at 100 metres?

Was your gunsmith unable to fix the extractor on your Sako? What was causing the problem?

[Islander7]

After spending whole day today by reading hundreds of pages of firearm forums and watching many youtube videos I shortlisted my options to the following:

- Ruger 77 Hawkeye .223 ~$1600
- Anschutz 1771 .223 ~$3100 (yes expensive, but not by much in comparison to Sako85)
- and seriously considering Winchester Model 70 in 22-250 (as they don't make it in .223) ~$2000, however concerned, isn't it too much, as I ideally I want my rabbits to remain in one whole piece.

- Had to complitely cross out Tikka, due to factors mentioned earlier.
- Had to eliminate Sako85, as Sako hunter laminated stainless (the model I like the most) isn't available until next June (just spoke to my dealer today) + possible ejection issues.
- temporarily crossed out Kimber M84, as there are mixed reviews on American forums + there is a detailed video by Ozzie Reviews, showing shocking inaccuracy, will do more research.


All opinions are welcome, you are also welsome to talk me out of my options or through in something completely new. I'm open to any suggestion, however it should be good rifle out of box, unfortunatelly I don't have time to customize it later, change stocks, barrels etc etc. Also I've checked Howas at the dealer today and I don't like them, no offence to Howa owners, they are probably great shooters, but to me they look cheap'ish, I'm not trying to save money here, it's vice versa )) just don't tell my wife

[Islander7]

Was your gunsmith unable to fix the extractor on your Sako? What was causing the problem?

[/quote]

Maybe solarpak will answer in detail later, but apparantly this issue is not isolated, there are many many reports and discussions of the issue on multiple forums. Most discouraging factor for me personally is that Beretta doesn't admit there's an issue, and doesn't accept it as the warranty issue.

Noone exactly knows what the cause is, but looks like this
https://youtu.be/hAlCcC45n50

[TassieTiger]

I don’t think you can go wrong with any of your shortlisted.
Given your budget and accuracy wants - have you given thought to optics as yet? Because if you end up with a rifle that you absolutely love but the optics are not up to the task, your going to become very frustrated and very disappointed...

[Gaznazdiak]

Buy a standard howa m1500 (not the mini action) and save yourself a bundle.....they shoot as good as any rifle with 55 grain loads. (with the 1 in 12 twist)
CK

I have not seen any outstanding results when guys use a Howa, the barrels are OK but don't come close to what I have seen from Tikka or Sako barrels. What size groups do you get from your Howa at 100 metres?

Was your gunsmith unable to fix the extractor on your Sako? What was causing the problem?

I can't speak for solarpak's Howa, but mine does OK.
The target is 3 shots at 100m

Webp.net-resizeimage (.jpg (344.88 KiB) Viewed 6534 times

I couldn't understand the high flyer until I noticed that the wind had moved the end of one arm of the clothesline into the trajectory but not in view in the scope, below.

Webp.net-resizeimage (14).jpg (323.28 KiB) Viewed 6534 times

Nothing at all wrong with a Howa.

How much better than that could I expect it to get for the extra $2K?

[SCJ429]

Sako extractors work so well that they retro fit them to Remington bolts. Most of the issue lie with the extractor directing the case upwards where it hits the scope, this can be corrected. I agree this is not something most people want to have to deal with on a new rifle. It is interesting that no military client has this issue with the TRG.

[Islander7]

I don’t think you can go wrong with any of your shortlisted.
Given your budget and accuracy wants - have you given thought to optics as yet? Because if you end up with a rifle that you absolutely love but the optics are not up to the task, your going to become very frustrated and very disappointed...

I had a quick look, but no, I haven't thought much of which scope to get yet. Happy to pay around $1k for it (or can easily stretch to $1.5k if needed), but not willing to pay more than that. Will have to do some research obviously.

[bigfellascott]

I dont have much experience with "modern" rifles apart from Tikka's & Sako's....so im in no position to comment on experience with other brands of new rifles.

In my opinion, out of those 2 options, & given your budget & intended use, it would be Sako hands down.

I do a lot of--or should i say, 99% of my hunting (shooting fur) is done from a car, driving around late afternoon & with a spotlight..(foxes & bunnies).& for this i mostly use a Tikka T3.

Let me tell you, not being able to top load with the Tikka is becoming painful.
I didnt think it would be a problem, but the amount of times i chamber a round upon pulling up on a fox or titchy bunny, & then have to unload the firearm & remove the magazine to put round back in mag is an annoyance.
Then there is the occasional time you drop a round from all the magazine fiddling & it slips down the side of the seat, &/or you've had the door open & you're not sure if it landed in or out of the car & end up spending time looking for it...
It may sound like im exagerating, but im sure those that do a lot of this type of shooting will vouch for what im saying.

With the Sako, it would be straight back in the top, hold the round down & slide the bolt forward for a safe empty chamber

So top load through ejection port is, in my opinion, a very important feature for a varmint rifle if budget comfortably allows.

Aside from that other potential suggestions i could offer are...
i know a guy who has a Kimber (only a sporter barrel for a walk about hunting rifle, where you may want a heavy barrel)...with a Swarovski Z6i 3-18 a top...
Not only does it look the goods, but it delivers too--its a VERY nice outfit to handle.

And, what about Cooper rifles...?
Does one of them fit within the budget...?

As has also been suggested, there is a custom build--you could buy a second hand rifle & drop it straight to a smith for re-barreling..

Let us know what you end up with & how it performs...

That's why I love my Howa's, I drop a round in when I'm ready, no need to stuff around putting em in a mag if I don't want too.

[bigfellascott]

Buy a standard howa m1500 (not the mini action) and save yourself a bundle.....they shoot as good as any rifle with 55 grain loads. (with the 1 in 12 twist)
CK

I have not seen any outstanding results when guys use a Howa, the barrels are OK but don't come close to what I have seen from Tikka or Sako barrels. What size groups do you get from your Howa at 100 metres?

Was your gunsmith unable to fix the extractor on your Sako? What was causing the problem?

All my Howa's shoot like s**t

222 @ 200m off a bipod and homemade sandbag


The 204 @ 140m shooting off a camp table and bipod and sandbag


Got a pic somewhere of my 22.250 Howa @ 200m with 4 in a half a 5c piece from memory.

Went shooting with a mate quite a few years ago now and we set up a greens triangle sign and used that to shoot at @280m from memory anyway we had a couple of shots each and my mates sako with custom Maddco barrel shot around 1.2" I guess and mine lobbed 2 right next to each other almost touching, my mate went quite after that and that was shooting off the back of a ute tray using my sleeping bag as a rest