Help me to choose best rifle in .223

[Member-Deleted]

Good on you Flyer well done but I was commenting on how different either shooting was to each other also the comment that SCJ429
said and I quote '' After seeing the poor standard of shooting showed by hunters I would encourage them to practice regularly at the range ''
That was the big statement putting all hunters into one package
Where do these hunters come from I don't know any hunters that would purposely wound an animal by a stupid shot
I would say most hunters shoot to their capabilities feral hunters ,meat hunters ,dangerous animals you name it
I dare say you would find just as many unexperienced people in the long range shooting as in the hunters so with the best of the two i'd hazard a guess a long range shooter would come out on top as far as shooting goes as was said they shoot thousands of rounds to stay on top of their game a hunter on the other hand
would shoot hundreds and can still shoot well enough to get the job done he doesn't have to shoot to 800-1000 yds
There are many hunters that can shoot to 600 and beyond comfortably but that in my eyes is not ethical hunting because too many things can go wrong for me
and you could end up with a wounded animal

Some of the long distance hunters I know started out long distance target shooting and the most animals I have seen and heard lost have come from those blokes
because of wrong choice of caliber-bullet ,bad choice of poi and uncontrollable conditions all the general problems of long distance shooting
I agree that long distance shooting at paper would make a better shooter at distance but I for one don't need it and thousands of hunters don't need it because we like to be recognised for our ethical hunting abilities like not taking unethical shots at animals
All I ask is don't put us hunters in the lower class of shooter because someone can shoot better at further distances in a different class because the two
are nothing alike

[Flyer]

No, not at all. I have the greatest respect for ethical hunters. Because a successful hunter knows their equipment - and part of knowing your equipment is knowing your limitations. Just because you can shoot a goat-sized target offhand at 500m doesn't mean you should try it on a real goat!

I think this all started with a bit of tongue-in-cheek banter about cowboy hunters vs city-slicker range shooters. As long as we all keep in mind its just a bit of gentle humour, I'm sure we can all respect each other's positions.

[Member-Deleted]

Too right we can Flyer mate my thoughts exactly respect is a wonderful thing when used even with ones opinions
cheers

[Strikey]

So,,,have we got an answer for ol' mate on what is the best 223 rifle for him????

[bigrich]

So,,,have we got an answer for ol' mate on what is the best 223 rifle for him????

ok , so he's decided on a good qaulity 22 hornet ( still a weihrauch ? ) , they can be silly accurate with handloading , best factory ammo for me islander was 46 gn winchester hp's ( these shot under 20mm for me regularly at 100 ) ,or rem hp's . because your targets may be small and this rifle can shoot out to 200, i would recommend a 4-12 x 40 as a minimum . a nice vx-3 leupold 4.5-14 x 40 would be nice . a qaulity 22lr will be great for bunny busting and is something to practice on , doesn't make a lot of noise and you can shoot all afternoon for $10. a steyr zephr 2, cz 452 , lithgow maybe ? . leupold 3-9x40 freedom rimfire specific scopes are nice and have a balistic duplex for hold over at distance. i love the one on my cz and found it better with clearer optics the similar priced scopes IMHO . trying to sort through everyone's opinions is probably as bigger job as choosing a rifle for poor old islander

[SCJ429]

Good on you Flyer well done but I was commenting on how different either shooting was to each other also the comment that SCJ429
said and I quote '' After seeing the poor standard of shooting showed by hunters I would encourage them to practice regularly at the range ''
That was the big statement putting all hunters into one package
Where do these hunters come from I don't know any hunters that would purposely wound an animal by a stupid shot

I certainly did not mean to lump all hunters into a poor shooter category. I have friends that have no interest in competition shooting but they practice regularly.. They understand their capabilities and those of their rifles. They can produce groups better than 1/2 with ease.

Unfortunately we have all seen guys who couldn't hit the side of a barn door with a bucket of wheat. A friend runs the qualifications for farmer assist. The results are woeful, when asked to produce a one inch group at 100, 90% of these guys cannot do it. You see groups of over five inches, I worry about the shots these guys have made on game when shooting in the paddock at unknown distances and in uncomfortable shooting positions. These guys need to practice at a range.

[Daddybang]

From another perspective I've taken more than one "range"shooter out hunting and while they're quite capable of putting a clover leaf into paper at 400 couldn't get one round into a pigs head at a hundred. Things like adrenaline and crosshair fever can do strange things to a normally capable shooters ability. As has been said above trying to compare the two is pretty fruitless imo.

[bigrich]

From another perspective I've taken more than one "range"shooter out hunting and while they're quite capable of putting a clover leaf into paper at 400 couldn't get one round into a pigs head at a hundred. Things like adrenaline and crosshair fever can do strange things to a normally capable shooters ability. As has been said above trying to compare the two is pretty fruitless imo.

you're spot on there DB. i've only recently got back into shooting/hunting after a 30 year break , and while i've practiced being a capable shot at the range, it's a whole different thing out in the paddock. i had to move quickly at times to get a better angle/view on goats , and between huffing and puffing and adrenaline i've missed some shots because of this. but i'm learning my limitations , remembering mistakes and try not to make them twice. learning my personal limits as well as my rifles limits , ethics and common sense in these things are my goal as well. with a little more experience these days, i find some attitudes and comments i hear at the range pretty funny and sometimes disturbing. definately makes things interesting.........

[SCJ429]

I can't say I do my best shooting after climbing up a hill and the heart rate is around 150 bpm. I bloke who cannot shoot under ideal conditions is not going to come good in the paddock. They end up shooting the jaw off some poor animal and leave it to an agonising death. That is why everyone needs a 22lr and plink off 50 shots every week to keep their skills up.

[TassieTiger]

And if your really keen? with that .22? do 10 push ups, jump up and take 10 shots in 30 secs @ 100 off hand...let me know your group size - I don’t think I hit the earth the first time I did this...

[bigrich]

I can't say I do my best shooting after climbing up a hill and the heart rate is around 150 bpm. I bloke who cannot shoot under ideal conditions is not going to come good in the paddock. They end up shooting the jaw off some poor animal and leave it to an agonising death. That is why everyone needs a 22lr and plink off 50 shots every week to keep their skills up.

agree with ya there mate . shot placement is a can of worms topic, in my case, until i'm confident to do so, i take heart/lung shots as there is greater room for error than head shots . my rifles at the range can shoot great groups, but the last thing i want is injured game taking off. i also try to make sure when i reload that i'm using the right projectile for the job. i'm going back to soft point projectiles ( 125gn nosler partitions) ,over super accurate ballistic tips in my 6.5 as i'm of the opinion that the soft point i'm using will be more flexable as a all round projectile on different game weights. JMHO .

[bigfellascott]

I don't do off hand shots these days, just to unsteady on my feet now so I just find something to steady the shot with, whether that be my bipod, a tree, rock, some part of a vehicle, backpack etc, I don't care if I do or don't shoot an animal anymore, but when I do I want to make sure to the best of my ability that it will be a one shot deal cos I'm not physically up to chasing after a wounded animal, if I can't get a decent shot on em they can walk as far as I'm concerned, I'm not that desperate to shoot em!

[Gaznazdiak]

G'day bigrich,
mate I've done the same, gone from ballistic tips back to soft nose.
I thought the Nosler 50gn were the Bee's knees, until I got hold of the 55gn Roo Max.

It's OCD I know but I weigh my projectiles as well as brass to get the best consistency.
The Nosler were all over the place like a mad woman's sh!t with an average deviation of .3gn difference but with some as much as 1.5 over or under.
I've loaded 140 Roo Max so far and their average deviation is .1g, with the biggest being only .2. The majority, about 65% were exactly 55gn.
Even Berger VLD match bullets I've used weren't that consistent.
The Howa's 9 twist seems to like 55s better as well.

But that said preparation and attitude are key. I never take a shot if I'm puffing or the heart rate's up, there's always next time.
I'd much rather miss the chance than fvck it up, it might be "only" a rabbit or a fox, but if I'm going to take away the only life that critter will ever have, I want it to be instant and unequivocal.

The change from 50gn B tips to soft nose has not only closed my 100m groups from 5c piece size to one hole, the price difference is amazing, I was paying 47c each for the Noslers, the Roo Max cost me 12c. Win/win.

[bigrich]

I don't do off hand shots these days, just to unsteady on my feet now so I just find something to steady the shot with, whether that be my bipod, a tree, rock, some part of a vehicle, backpack etc, I don't care if I do or don't shoot an animal anymore, but when I do I want to make sure to the best of my ability that it will be a one shot deal cos I'm not physically up to chasing after a wounded animal, if I can't get a decent shot on em they can walk as far as I'm concerned, I'm not that desperate to shoot em!

+1 mate. the last shot i took was over 200 , i put the bullet in the right spot in a goat that almost dropped on the spot. i was shooting up at a ridge across the bonnet of my toyota

[bigrich]

roo max ay gaz ? i'm shooting 50 nosler bt's out of my 222 for good accuracy, but i might have to look in to roo max. my 222 has a 1-12 twist, so might work alright

[Gaznazdiak]

roo max ay gaz ? i'm shooting 50 nosler bt's out of my 222 for good accuracy, but i might have to look in to roo max. my 222 has a 1-12 twist, so might work alright

Yeah mate, got them from that big place in QLD, $85/600, well pleased

[bigfellascott]

roo max ay gaz ? i'm shooting 50 nosler bt's out of my 222 for good accuracy, but i might have to look in to roo max. my 222 has a 1-12 twist, so might work alright

Yeah mate, got them from that big place in QLD, $85/600, well pleased

The roo max sound like they are the equivalent of the Sierra Super Roos I find they do a great job and I was getting em for $110 per 1000, very good value indeed and they really killed well out of the 22-250

The other projectile I used to use a lot was the Nolser Solid Base .224 you really noticed a real audible thump when they hit roos compared to the Blitzkings and other similar offerings. They were a soft pointed projectile like the roo max and Sierra Super Roos (which are Sierras Game King Projectile) just marked in bulk packs as the Sierra Super Roos.

[Gaznazdiak]

G'day Scott
I have noticed a distinctly different impact noise between the two, now that you mention it.
The Nosler BT have a solid copper base and make a low pitched sound like whacking the dust out of a floor mat with a broom handle, whereas the soft nose Hornady seem to produce a higher frequency, sort of like a .22 firing from 2-300m away.

The solid bases were punched right through and made them problematic to use around the sheds. The soft nose don't have this problem.

I caught one looking the wrong way last week and got him from behind from less than 40m.
I lined him up so that there was a post behind him instead of yard rail and nailed him.

Totally obliterated him, as expected, but no shrapnel in the post or rails less than 3m behind him.
I spent ages and many $ trying to get an accurate 35gn load for the sheds without success and these babies could do it all along.

[SCJ429]

G'day bigrich,
mate I've done the same, gone from ballistic tips back to soft nose.
I thought the Nosler 50gn were the Bee's knees, until I got hold of the 55gn Roo Max.

It's OCD I know but I weigh my projectiles as well as brass to get the best consistency.
The Nosler were all over the place like a mad woman's sh!t with an average deviation of .3gn difference but with some as much as 1.5 over or under.
I've loaded 140 Roo Max so far and their average deviation is .1g, with the biggest being only .2. The majority, about 65% were exactly 55gn.
Even Berger VLD match bullets I've used weren't that consistent.
The Howa's 9 twist seems to like 55s better as well

I have no luck with Roo Max, I shot them in a 1:8 barrel and they were rubbish so I shot them in a 1:14 still average. I find Noslers ballistic tips group well and Vmax are excellent. That said I head shot an 80 kilo goat with the Roo max and it dropped it instantly, head shot. What I like about them is the price and that they expand on small game.

Not sure if weighing the pill gains you much, the variation in your scales might be more of a factor. Berger VLD work well for everyone so if there is any variation it isn't reflected in the group size. The base to ogive length is the critical factor there.

[Gaznazdiak]

G'day bigrich,
mate I've done the same, gone from ballistic tips back to soft nose.
I thought the Nosler 50gn were the Bee's knees, until I got hold of the 55gn Roo Max.

It's OCD I know but I weigh my projectiles as well as brass to get the best consistency.
The Nosler were all over the place like a mad woman's sh!t with an average deviation of .3gn difference but with some as much as 1.5 over or under.
I've loaded 140 Roo Max so far and their average deviation is .1g, with the biggest being only .2. The majority, about 65% were exactly 55gn.
Even Berger VLD match bullets I've used weren't that consistent.
The Howa's 9 twist seems to like 55s better as well

Not sure if weighing the pill gains you much, the variation in your scales might be more of a factor. Berger VLD work well for everyone so if there is any variation it isn't reflected in the group size. The base to ogive length is the critical factor there.

If the variation was in my scales and not the item being weighed, then the inconsistencies would be present in every projectile type and be of a consistent value, they are not, therefore simple logic says it's the projectiles that vary.

As to what is to be gained from batching?
Consistency. That's the point

If you have a batch of cases that all weigh 93gn and you load them all with projectiles of the same exact weight, they will perform more consistently than with pills that aren't. Heavier will hit lower than expected and light will hit higher.

When I'm shooting at an animal with a target area 2" diameter at 300m, I want to know the bullet is going where I want, not an inch high and scaring him off or worse, an inch low and just taking off his jaw.

[bigfellascott]

G'day Scott
I have noticed a distinctly different impact noise between the two, now that you mention it.
The Nosler BT have a solid copper base and make a low pitched sound like whacking the dust out of a floor mat with a broom handle, whereas the soft nose Hornady seem to produce a higher frequency, sort of like a .22 firing from 2-300m away.

The solid bases were punched right through and made them problematic to use around the sheds. The soft nose don't have this problem.

I caught one looking the wrong way last week and got him from behind from less than 40m.
I lined him up so that there was a post behind him instead of yard rail and nailed him.

Totally obliterated him, as expected, but no shrapnel in the post or rails less than 3m behind him.
I spent ages and many $ trying to get an accurate 35gn load for the sheds without success and these babies could do it all along.

Good to hear you got something that works for you mick. I found the Nosler Solid base seem to put em on the deck that little bit quicker than the others - Not sure why that was but the definitely made a Thud type sound compared to the other varieties I was testing at the time.

[bigrich]

G'day Scott
I have noticed a distinctly different impact noise between the two, now that you mention it.
The Nosler BT have a solid copper base and make a low pitched sound like whacking the dust out of a floor mat with a broom handle, whereas the soft nose Hornady seem to produce a higher frequency, sort of like a .22 firing from 2-300m away.

The solid bases were punched right through and made them problematic to use around the sheds. The soft nose don't have this problem.

I caught one looking the wrong way last week and got him from behind from less than 40m.
I lined him up so that there was a post behind him instead of yard rail and nailed him.

Totally obliterated him, as expected, but no shrapnel in the post or rails less than 3m behind him.
I spent ages and many $ trying to get an accurate 35gn load for the sheds without success and these babies could do it all along.

Good to hear you got something that works for you mick. I found the Nosler Solid base seem to put em on the deck that little bit quicker than the others - Not sure why that was but the definitely made a Thud type sound compared to the other varieties I was testing at the time.

i chose the nosler for it's solid base too scot , i've found vmax are a bit more explosive than i'd like . anyone found anything else that shoots well ? speer ?

[bladeracer]

Heavier will hit lower than expected and light will hit higher.

That's not necessarily correct, particularly at longer ranges. BC will make the difference. A heavier ELD or VLD may well shoot higher than a blunt lighter bullet.

[Gaznazdiak]

Heavier will hit lower than expected and light will hit higher.

That's not necessarily correct, particularly at longer ranges. BC will make the difference. A heavier ELD or VLD may well shoot higher than a blunt lighter bullet.

Definitely right there, but the wrong context, Blade.

What I was talking about was, a 51.5gn Nosler ballistic tip is going to hit lower than a Nosler ballistic tip that is exactly the advertised 50gn. They have the same BC but one might have slightly thinner case walls and a corresponding extra bit of lead.
With the same charge and BC, the heavier will hit lower.
Physics dictates it be so.

[bigfellascott]

Heavier will hit lower than expected and light will hit higher.

That's not necessarily correct, particularly at longer ranges. BC will make the difference. A heavier ELD or VLD may well shoot higher than a blunt lighter bullet.

Definitely right there, but the wrong context, Blade.

What I was talking about was, a 51.5gn Nosler ballistic tip is going to hit lower than a Nosler ballistic tip that is exactly the advertised 50gn. They have the same BC but one might have slightly thinner case walls and a corresponding extra bit of lead.
With the same charge and BC, the heavier will hit lower.
Physics dictates it be so.

Have you tested the theory out Mick to see if it does happen? would be interesting to see just how much of a difference it makes in real hunting terms hey.

You are officially a resident Myth Buster

[SCJ429]

If the variation was in my scales and not the item being weighed, then the inconsistencies would be present in every projectile type and be of a consistent value, they are not, therefore simple logic says it's the projectiles that vary.

As to what is to be gained from batching?
Consistency. That's the point

If you have a batch of cases that all weigh 93gn and you load them all with projectiles of the same exact weight, they will perform more consistently than with pills that aren't. Heavier will hit lower than expected and light will hit higher.

I am all for batching but was asking if you get any improvement in group size by weighing the projectiles. The variation in the bearing length seems to be the variation that makes a difference on paper. I read an article written by German Salazar where he was talking about match projectiles. He indicated that the bearing length of the projectile was where uniformity was a factor in accuracy and then only if the variation was more than five thou. I have weighed Berger bullets and didn't find more than .2 of a grain difference.

I batched a number of Lapua brass by weight and used the best ones for testing and used the worst for practice. On paper and on the chrono there was no difference between the two batches. Obviously the variation between the Lapua was not terrible but there was some. I now fire all the cases and set aside ones that are more than 10 fps outside my average. This is using a known performing load.

What sort of groups are you getting with Roo Max? Do they shoot better than the Noslers or Bergers?

[marksman]

Heavier will hit lower than expected and light will hit higher.

That's not necessarily correct, particularly at longer ranges. BC will make the difference. A heavier ELD or VLD may well shoot higher than a blunt lighter bullet.

Definitely right there, but the wrong context, Blade.

What I was talking about was, a 51.5gn Nosler ballistic tip is going to hit lower than a Nosler ballistic tip that is exactly the advertised 50gn. They have the same BC but one might have slightly thinner case walls and a corresponding extra bit of lead.
With the same charge and BC, the heavier will hit lower.
Physics dictates it be so.

IMHO you are on the right track Gaz
if you think about it as long as you shoot straight you will hit a kill shot
if the distance is a bit more than you judge you will shoot lower so if the deer/roo is standing side on, or looking away from you with head high,
neck straight, if you aim at the head between the ear and eye, side on or back of the skull looking away from you and shoot low because distance is further than thought you shoot the neck, still a bang flop humane kill,
same if your projectile's are different in weight, physics turns into real world experience

as far as internal volume capacity IMHO it can only be checked accurately by weighing the water volume

[Gaznazdiak]

G'day Scott
I have noticed a distinctly different impact noise between the two, now that you mention it.
The Nosler BT have a solid copper base and make a low pitched sound like whacking the dust out of a floor mat with a broom handle, whereas the soft nose Hornady seem to produce a higher frequency, sort of like a .22 firing from 2-300m away.

The solid bases were punched right through and made them problematic to use around the sheds. The soft nose don't have this problem.

I caught one looking the wrong way last week and got him from behind from less than 40m.
I lined him up so that there was a post behind him instead of yard rail and nailed him.

Totally obliterated him, as expected, but no shrapnel in the post or rails less than 3m behind him.
I spent ages and many $ trying to get an accurate 35gn load for the sheds without success and these babies could do it all along.

Good to hear you got something that works for you mick. I found the Nosler Solid base seem to put em on the deck that little bit quicker than the others - Not sure why that was but the definitely made a Thud type sound compared to the other varieties I was testing at the time.

i chose the nosler for it's solid base too scot , i've found vmax are a bit more explosive than i'd like . anyone found anything else that shoots well ? speer ?

When I first started using them I couldn't believe how much energy they deliver.

I was heading home from down the back one evening, and had passed the sheds, moved up the hill about 30m a decided to just wait to see if anyone got careless.
I was just getting out the rifle to set up on the bonnet, when no more than 55-60m away, Tony pops out for a quick vegan breakfast.
Presented with a sudden target really close, I didn't bother try to faff about resetting the scope and guesstimated the difference.

Too much. The rabbit was lying prone facing to my left, and the impact blew him at least 6 foot into the air and I thought, "Legend".

The result was amazing, the bullet went into the ground about half an inch from him and pretty much detonated right underneath him.

Webp.net-resizeimage (4) (1).jpg (532.79 KiB) Viewed 8943 times

It completely disemboweled him, with bits 20 feet away.

20180327_134019.jpg (876.66 KiB) Viewed 8943 times

[bigfellascott]

Got some interesting and similar results out of the 250 using the Super roos, very messy terminal performance, to say the least, this one stood up on its back legs to have a look around. The only thing holding the top and bottom together were a couple of strips of skin

[Gaznazdiak]

The amazing thing is though, the bullet itself didn't hit him, it hit the dirt underneath him and the force of the dirt blowing upward from the impact is what gutted him.

First time I've ever killed something I clean missed.