Howa 6.5creed

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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by bigrich » 12 Jan 2019, 1:42 pm

Just forget about all the 6.5’s and get a 7x57 . If I had my time again I would get a quality rifle in this caliber . In a modern rifle it can exceed in accuracy and as a hunting round over a lot of the modern rounds. JMHO
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by JimTom » 12 Jan 2019, 2:02 pm

I read an article just recently about a 7x57. Seemed like a good cartridge.
Don’t know a lot about it though. Do you have one mate?
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by Cooper » 12 Jan 2019, 2:27 pm

I like Howa's and the 6.5 Creedmoor. Seems to be so many rifles chambered in the calibre now. doubt you would go too far wrong with the Howa. Pretty tempting at that price!
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by JimTom » 12 Jan 2019, 2:57 pm

Yep that’s cheap for sure mate. Provided they shoot, which from all accounts on this forum they do.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by bladeracer » 12 Jan 2019, 4:07 pm

JimTom wrote:G'day mate

I am loading the 143 ELDX in my Creedmoor and have them loaded so they are a poofteenth of the lands. I haven't found any restrictions associated with the short action of the 6.5 Manbun and the 143 ELDX are a long projectile.
I am by no means saying it's any better than the 6.5x55. I was tossing up between the two, I did however opt for the Manbun for a number of reasons.
In saying that I would happily own a Swede.


I guess it comes down to whether the particular platform uses a short-action length magazine, if not then longer bullets would be an option. A short-action with a .2.800" mag length would be restrictive though. Of course, it's irrelevant if the chamber doesn't have the throat for longer bullets anyway.

6.5CM case length is 1.920" with overall length 2.825".
.308Win is 2.015" and 2.800".
The 143gn ELDX and 147gn ELDM are 1.440" long.

I can imagine there must be some shooters loading these things out well over three-inches overall.

As I said, I don't want to talk you out of the Creedmoor, as it's a fine modern cartridge. But it doesn't really offer anything that my current 6.5mm chamberings can offer so I haven't gotten around to getting one, yet. The Grendel design though is a little more "out there" so I just find it a more interesting choice for experimenting with.

Rough comparisons, but some tweaking can exceed these numbers by decent margins of course (particularly with some of the military loads):
6.5mm Creedmoor (case length 48.8mm) 140gn at 2650fps.
6.5x50mm 140gn at 2500fps.
6.5x52mm 140gn at 2200fps.
6.5x54R 140gn at 2200fps.
6.5x55mm 140gn at 2600fps.
6.5x58mm 140gn at 2500fps.

.260Rem (case length 51.5mm) 140gn at 2700fps.
6.5mm Grendell (case length 38.5mm) 140gn at 2350fps.

As you can see, the Grendel is a very short case but with still decent velocity.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I posted this comparison to show the 6.5mm chamberings I have (in bold) to explain why I haven't bothered getting the Creedmoor yet, not to try to make any one of them appear better than the rest.
Last edited by bladeracer on 12 Jan 2019, 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by bladeracer » 12 Jan 2019, 4:10 pm

JimTom wrote:I read an article just recently about a 7x57. Seemed like a good cartridge.
Don’t know a lot about it though. Do you have one mate?


My dealer loves 7x57mm, in an old Mauser Sporting Rifle.
It's virtually identical to 7mm-08 in ballistics.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by Archie » 12 Jan 2019, 4:23 pm

I’ll just say the same thing I always thing about Howas regardless of caliber, they’re good rifles for the money but whoever designed that mag release should be hung.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by SCJ429 » 12 Jan 2019, 5:03 pm

bladeracer wrote:
JimTom wrote:G'day mate

Rough comparisons, but some tweaking can exceed these numbers by decent margins of course (particularly with some of the military loads):
6.5mm Creedmoor (case length 48.8mm) 140gn at 2650fps.
6.5x50mm 140gn at 2500fps.
6.5x52mm 140gn at 2200fps.
6.5x54R 140gn at 2200fps.
6.5x55mm 140gn at 2600fps.
6.5x58mm 140gn at 2500fps.
.260Rem (case length 51.5mm) 140gn at 2700fps.
6.5mm Grendell (case length 38.5mm) 140gn at 2350fps.
.


The poor old 6.5x55 Swede always gets sold short, I know you qualified this in your opening line. I feel it has to be said that the Swede can easily shoot a 140 grain projectile out of a modern action at 3,000 fps, giving it a considerable advantage over the 260 and CM.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by Flyer » 12 Jan 2019, 5:11 pm

I just looked up my load data and we chronoed the 143 ELD-X with 42.5gr of 2209 at 2710fps.

At the ADI/Hornady max recommended 41.5gr - which is Jim Tom's load - it was going 2650fps.

I haven't finished load development yet, so I still have 42.8 and 43.0 to go - maybe a little higher if I find a node - so there's potential for over 2750fps and the Lappy brass seems to handle it easily. That's in a new 24" barrel, so it might also get a little quicker as the barrel seasons.

OAL for the 143 ELD-X in my Sako is 2.932" and maximum mag length is 2.900", so I've been loading 2.890" or 0.042" off the lands.

The 143 ELD-X is 1.430" long - about as long as you're going to load in a Creedmoor, and longer than a Berger 140gr VLD (1.420"). That's plenty long enough for mag loading just about any bullet on the market. Anyone who's serious about bench rest or F-Class is going to single load anyway.

Creedmoor143ELDX123Scenar.jpg
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by bladeracer » 12 Jan 2019, 5:51 pm

SCJ429 wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
JimTom wrote:G'day mate

Rough comparisons, but some tweaking can exceed these numbers by decent margins of course (particularly with some of the military loads):
6.5mm Creedmoor (case length 48.8mm) 140gn at 2650fps.
6.5x50mm 140gn at 2500fps.
6.5x52mm 140gn at 2200fps.
6.5x54R 140gn at 2200fps.
6.5x55mm 140gn at 2600fps.
6.5x58mm 140gn at 2500fps.
.260Rem (case length 51.5mm) 140gn at 2700fps.
6.5mm Grendell (case length 38.5mm) 140gn at 2350fps.
.


The poor old 6.5x55 Swede always gets sold short, I know you qualified this in your opening line. I feel it has to be said that the Swede can easily shoot a 140 grain projectile out of a modern action at 3,000 fps, giving it a considerable advantage over the 260 and CM.


Absolutely, with tweaking, any of these can significantly exceed those rough numbers. If you're chasing velocity of course, I don't bother myself. If I want more velocity I grab a different rifle. I'm quite happy to load them comfortably for accuracy without being concerned about velocity.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by bladeracer » 12 Jan 2019, 5:52 pm

Flyer wrote:I just looked up my load data and we chronoed the 143 ELD-X with 42.5gr of 2209 at 2710fps.

At the ADI/Hornady max recommended 41.5gr - which is Jim Tom's load - it was going 2650fps.

I haven't finished load development yet, so I still have 42.8 and 43.0 to go - maybe a little higher if I find a node - so there's potential for over 2750fps and the Lappy brass seems to handle it easily. That's in a new 24" barrel, so it might also get a little quicker as the barrel seasons.

OAL for the 143 ELD-X in my Sako is 2.932" and maximum mag length is 2.900", so I've been loading 2.890" or 0.042" off the lands.

The 143 ELD-X is 1.430" long - about as long as you're going to load in a Creedmoor, and longer than a Berger 140gr VLD (1.420"). That's plenty long enough for mag loading just about any bullet on the market. Anyone who's serious about bench rest or F-Class is going to single load anyway.

Creedmoor143ELDX123Scenar.jpg


I'm curious why you're chasing velocity - for what purpose?
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by Flyer » 12 Jan 2019, 6:05 pm

I'm not really. My target load is 43.2gr of 2209 behind a 123gr Lapua Scenar for 2815fps. I have found good accuracy at 44.2gr of 2209 for 2880fps and have chronoed 45.2gr at 2960fps, but the reduced load is more accurate and plenty fast enough for shooting offhand out to 200m, which is what I mainly use it for.

With the 143gr ELD-X, I have found best accuracy at 41.8gr and good accuracy at 42.6gr, but nothing has really jumped out at me yet. I started at 41gr and loaded to 43gr, but haven't tried the 42.8 and 43.0gr loads yet. The book data seems to be pretty conservative compared to lots of other load data online, and I'm finding that's true with the small primer Lapua brass.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by Bill » 12 Jan 2019, 6:29 pm

JimTom wrote:
SCJ429 wrote:How fast can a CM sling a 143 ELDX?


Mate I don’t chrono anything however from the loading tables I expect that I am getting just under 2700fps out of them, so about the same or a tiny bit quicker thank the Swede with a couple of grains less powder.


quicker than a swede lol Ive owned 3 and all did well over 2700fps with a 140gr.

my last 260rem with a 21inch tube safely pushed 140gr Lapua's to 2840fps, now thats bit more than the Creedmore gets.

there is no such thing as a free lunch with the creedmore...ya gunna either need a long tube (heavier) or really push the PSI to keep up with the 260 and 6.5 swede.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by Bill » 12 Jan 2019, 6:30 pm

bigrich wrote:Just forget about all the 6.5’s and get a 7x57 . If I had my time again I would get a quality rifle in this caliber . In a modern rifle it can exceed in accuracy and as a hunting round over a lot of the modern rounds. JMHO


slick feeding and the ability to shoot 120-195gr, I suspect your probably right.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by SCJ429 » 12 Jan 2019, 6:51 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Creedmoor143ELDX123Scenar.jpg


I'm curious why you're chasing velocity - for what purpose?[/quote]

I like to push a case a little to exploit its potential, better ballistics, less wind drift, better terminal performance. I wouldn't buy a 22/250 and then shoot it at 223 speeds. People have been chasing speed since Adam was a boy. But I am sure I am not telling an experienced bloke like you anything you don't already know.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by Flyer » 12 Jan 2019, 6:59 pm

I think it's worth mentioning the small primer Lapua cases are thick with lots of metal around the primer pockets and some long-range competition shooters are pushing the Creedmoor up to and over 64,000psi. I don't want a barrel burner, but I wouldn't mind a hunting load with a bit of "oomph". I bought the 6.5CM to replace a 243 because I figured the 6.5 could do everything the 243 could do with similar recoil, longer barrel life and also encroach into 308 territory in terms of downrange energy. I wanted a mid-ranged centrefire that could "do everything". I don't think there's anything a 6.5 couldn't account for in the Aussie bush.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by bigrich » 12 Jan 2019, 9:11 pm

Bill wrote:
JimTom wrote:
SCJ429 wrote:How fast can a CM sling a 143 ELDX?


Mate I don’t chrono anything however from the loading tables I expect that I am getting just under 2700fps out of them, so about the same or a tiny bit quicker thank the Swede with a couple of grains less powder.


quicker than a swede lol Ive owned 3 and all did well over 2700fps with a 140gr.

my last 260rem with a 21inch tube safely pushed 140gr Lapua's to 2840fps, now thats bit more than the Creedmore gets.

there is no such thing as a free lunch with the creedmore...ya gunna either need a long tube (heavier) or really push the PSI to keep up with the 260 and 6.5 swede.


i played with my winchester 70 that's in 6.5x55, 120 nosler BT's and 49 gn of reloader 22 got me 2950 FPS over the crono and three shots one hole accuracy at 100. it's silly accurate and the bullet performance would be spectacular , but i'm not comfortable pushing that sort of velocity and making a barrel burner. i've pulled it back to 2750 FPS with 47 gn of reloader and 125 nosler partitions that will do .6" at 100 . better general purpose bullet for my uses. bear in mind this is a wood stocked sporting rifle . not a heavy barreled target job i've mostly shot goat with the off chance of deer or pig and this is more than enough . i have used 140 sst's and 140 partitions at 2750 . accuracy has been good and expansion on goat at distance was good with the 140 sst's 46.5 gn of RE22 works with the 140's for me . the funny thing is some of these projectiles like jump, some don't .if i didn't like this rifle so much i would have a 7x57 . after a bit of digging and a article i read in "american rifleman " it really is a great all time caliber . i feel this caliber is due for a resurgance. check it out

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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by JimTom » 12 Jan 2019, 9:25 pm

Bill wrote:
JimTom wrote:
SCJ429 wrote:How fast can a CM sling a 143 ELDX?


Mate I don’t chrono anything however from the loading tables I expect that I am getting just under 2700fps out of them, so about the same or a tiny bit quicker thank the Swede with a couple of grains less powder.


quicker than a swede lol Ive owned 3 and all did well over 2700fps with a 140gr.

my last 260rem with a 21inch tube safely pushed 140gr Lapua's to 2840fps, now thats bit more than the Creedmore gets.

there is no such thing as a free lunch with the creedmore...ya gunna either need a long tube (heavier) or really push the PSI to keep up with the 260 and 6.5 swede.


Yes mate maybe your Swede and .260 do do over 2700fps, lol, like I said, I am just going off the loading tables. No doubt a Creedmoor could do the same. I don’t load outside the recommended loads of the manufacturers data, so I wouldn’t really know, lol, lol.
Wasn’t having a shot at the Swede mate, couldn’t care less, not into worrying about which rifle had the biggest cock.lol, lol, lol.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by bladeracer » 12 Jan 2019, 9:46 pm

JimTom wrote:Yes mate maybe your Swede and .260 do do over 2700fps, lol, like I said, I am just going off the loading tables. No doubt a Creedmoor could do the same. I don’t load outside the recommended loads of the manufacturers data, so I wouldn’t really know, lol, lol.
Wasn’t having a shot at the Swede mate, couldn’t care less, not into worrying about which rifle had the biggest cock.lol, lol, lol.


I pretty much ignore manufacturer's data as they're all different. Your loads within the specific data you are using may well be outside the data from another manufacturer or manual. I load to what my brass and rifle tell me are acceptable.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by Cal-ApeR » 12 Jan 2019, 9:58 pm

Flyer wrote:I think it's worth mentioning the small primer Lapua cases are thick with lots of metal around the primer pockets and some long-range competition shooters are pushing the Creedmoor up to and over 64,000psi. I don't want a barrel burner, but I wouldn't mind a hunting load with a bit of "oomph". I bought the 6.5CM to replace a 243 because I figured the 6.5 could do everything the 243 could do with similar recoil, longer barrel life and also encroach into 308 territory in terms of downrange energy. I wanted a mid-ranged centrefire that could "do everything". I don't think there's anything a 6.5 couldn't account for in the Aussie bush.


Your thoughts are very similar to mine. I still have a little life in my 243 but thought maybe the creedmoor for this price would tick the boxes and deal with my varmints as well as medium sized game. Brass is not as cheap, projectiles in .264 are slightly more per hundred but barely enough to worry about.

Have you achieved this goal? Any chance you've used the Speer 90gr TNT in your Creed?
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by JimTom » 13 Jan 2019, 5:55 am

bladeracer wrote:
JimTom wrote:Yes mate maybe your Swede and .260 do do over 2700fps, lol, like I said, I am just going off the loading tables. No doubt a Creedmoor could do the same. I don’t load outside the recommended loads of the manufacturers data, so I wouldn’t really know, lol, lol.
Wasn’t having a shot at the Swede mate, couldn’t care less, not into worrying about which rifle had the biggest cock.lol, lol, lol.


I pretty much ignore manufacturer's data as they're all different. Your loads within the specific data you are using may well be outside the data from another manufacturer or manual. I load to what my brass and rifle tell me are acceptable.


Yep that’s fair enough mate. I know there are few reloaders who load more than recommended and do it quite safely. I would suggest that the loading tables are quite conservative when it comes to max loads. I have managed to achieve good accuracy within the recommended loads to date and haven’t had the need to stray outside them.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by SCJ429 » 13 Jan 2019, 9:02 am

The Swede should have two sets of load data like the 45/70 has, one for older actions and one set for modern designs. It is not uncommon to be more than six grains over when loading for a Swede.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by Cooper » 13 Jan 2019, 9:15 am

Cal-ApeR wrote:Your thoughts are very similar to mine. I still have a little life in my 243 but thought maybe the creedmoor for this price would tick the boxes and deal with my varmints as well as medium sized game. Brass is not as cheap, projectiles in .264 are slightly more per hundred but barely enough to worry about.

Have you achieved this goal? Any chance you've used the Speer 90gr TNT in your Creed?


I've used the Speer 90gr TNT in the Creedmoor. I mainly bought them for the Grendel. Speer also make 140 soft point. But I ended using ar2208 with the 90gr TNT in the Creedmoor. Speer have load data. I was using 42.5gr of ar2208 in a Hornady case. I think from memory max is up near 44gr .
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by bigrich » 13 Jan 2019, 9:25 am

SCJ429 wrote:The Swede should have two sets of load data like the 45/70 has, one for older actions and one set for modern designs. It is not uncommon to be more than six grains over when loading for a Swede.


i agree on two sets of load data for the swede . i find nick harvey's load data book to be more realistic, but i stress all loads should be cautiously worked up . a lot of the older cartriges like the 6.5 swede and the 7x57 , even the 30-30 in a ruger No 1 with spitzer bullets , can be loaded up to perform well beyond their original spec safely in a solid modern rifle . i love playing with ballistics. the funnest, cheapest caliber that i got the best groups out of , 22 hornet :unknown:

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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by Cal-ApeR » 13 Jan 2019, 10:39 am

Cooper, how did the Speer perform? Curious to know what sort of groups you were capable of using the lighter projectiles.

I keep flipping back and forth between the idea of getting a spare 243 or a creedmoor. Your input here will help.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by MJW380 » 13 Jan 2019, 10:46 am

One of my mates missus brought a Browning A bolt 3, was fairly cheap, with the intention of using it was a carry around rifle as it’s fairly light, they tried loading up 140 sst’s and it didn’t like them at all, ended up getting some 95gr v-max pills and they make tiny groups at 100
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by SCJ429 » 13 Jan 2019, 11:14 am

I tried some 62 grain Barnes Varmint Genades in my 243, they shot well at 3,900 fps but as soon as I pushed them over 4,000 I couldn't keep them on paper. They were good for vaporising small furry things at 3,900 so I left it at that.

Speer TNT are very accurate for a cheap projectile and frangable. Great for smaller game and if you can't get them to shoot then you are not trying. They do a lot of damage so if you want to keep the pelt you will have to head shoot..
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by marksman » 13 Jan 2019, 11:34 am

bigrich wrote:
SCJ429 wrote:The Swede should have two sets of load data like the 45/70 has, one for older actions and one set for modern designs. It is not uncommon to be more than six grains over when loading for a Swede.


i agree on two sets of load data for the swede . i find nick harvey's load data book to be more realistic, but i stress all loads should be cautiously worked up . a lot of the older cartriges like the 6.5 swede and the 7x57 , even the 30-30 in a ruger No 1 with spitzer bullets , can be loaded up to perform well beyond their original spec safely in a solid modern rifle . i love playing with ballistics. the funnest, cheapest caliber that i got the best groups out of , 22 hornet :unknown:

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+1 :drinks:
with regard to the 6.5x55 you will be able to load to higher pressure by getting a rifle that is a front locker which is why I had mine done on a 98 action
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by Cooper » 13 Jan 2019, 2:02 pm

Cal-ApeR wrote:Cooper, how did the Speer perform? Curious to know what sort of groups you were capable of using the lighter projectiles.

I keep flipping back and forth between the idea of getting a spare 243 or a creedmoor. Your input here will help.


image.jpeg
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That at 63 metres. 3 shots. I have a 26 inch barrel. They are extremely explosive out of the Creedmoor. They go fairly good out of the Grendel too! Even though they are a good few hundred feet per second slower out of the 6.5 Grendel.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by Flyer » 13 Jan 2019, 4:26 pm

Cal-ApeR wrote:
Flyer wrote:I think it's worth mentioning the small primer Lapua cases are thick with lots of metal around the primer pockets and some long-range competition shooters are pushing the Creedmoor up to and over 64,000psi. I don't want a barrel burner, but I wouldn't mind a hunting load with a bit of "oomph". I bought the 6.5CM to replace a 243 because I figured the 6.5 could do everything the 243 could do with similar recoil, longer barrel life and also encroach into 308 territory in terms of downrange energy. I wanted a mid-ranged centrefire that could "do everything". I don't think there's anything a 6.5 couldn't account for in the Aussie bush.


Your thoughts are very similar to mine. I still have a little life in my 243 but thought maybe the creedmoor for this price would tick the boxes and deal with my varmints as well as medium sized game. Brass is not as cheap, projectiles in .264 are slightly more per hundred but barely enough to worry about.

Have you achieved this goal? Any chance you've used the Speer 90gr TNT in your Creed?

I haven't used anything lighter than 123gr at this stage.

Brass and projectiles are slightly more than 243, but you tend to have a larger choice of 6.5 projectiles, as well as a choice or large and small primer brass. It also appears 6.5CM brass is coming down in price as the calibre becomes more common. The Starline Brass isn't bad value and comes with a guaranteed five reloads out of every case. But I've seen a video of two guys reloading a Lapua 6.5 Creedmore SRP case 21 times in a row to no ill effect, so that's pretty good value to me, too.

I've seen Federal 6.5CM Powershock 140gr ammo for sale for $25-$30 a box, and I've bought a couple of $30 boxes myself that shot really well and provided some cheap brass. Again, 6.5CM ammo is becoming more common and getting cheaper in price if you want a source of cheap brass or don't fancy reloading.

When it came time to choosing a 6.5, one of the things that swayed me towards the Creedmoor was the greater - and increasing - choice of all the above compared to 260 or even 6.5x55.

I don't notice any real difference in recoil between the 6.5 and 243, but I've shot both at metal gongs and metallic silhouettes and the 6.5 has a much more noticeable ring to it - it definitely hits harder (123gr bullets vs my old .243 87gr V-Max load).

I already have a 223 and rimfires which I shoot a lot, and I wanted one other centrefire to do everything else. I could have added a 7-08 or 308 to my 243, but I decided to rationalise both with a 6.5. I freely admit to jumping on the "manbun bandwagon" due to the CM's popularity, because that just means a greater choice of brass, projectiles and factory ammo that seems to be increasing every year.

4 shots at 100m
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