Howa 6.5creed

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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by bladeracer » 12 Jan 2019, 9:46 pm

JimTom wrote:Yes mate maybe your Swede and .260 do do over 2700fps, lol, like I said, I am just going off the loading tables. No doubt a Creedmoor could do the same. I don’t load outside the recommended loads of the manufacturers data, so I wouldn’t really know, lol, lol.
Wasn’t having a shot at the Swede mate, couldn’t care less, not into worrying about which rifle had the biggest cock.lol, lol, lol.


I pretty much ignore manufacturer's data as they're all different. Your loads within the specific data you are using may well be outside the data from another manufacturer or manual. I load to what my brass and rifle tell me are acceptable.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by Cal-ApeR » 12 Jan 2019, 9:58 pm

Flyer wrote:I think it's worth mentioning the small primer Lapua cases are thick with lots of metal around the primer pockets and some long-range competition shooters are pushing the Creedmoor up to and over 64,000psi. I don't want a barrel burner, but I wouldn't mind a hunting load with a bit of "oomph". I bought the 6.5CM to replace a 243 because I figured the 6.5 could do everything the 243 could do with similar recoil, longer barrel life and also encroach into 308 territory in terms of downrange energy. I wanted a mid-ranged centrefire that could "do everything". I don't think there's anything a 6.5 couldn't account for in the Aussie bush.


Your thoughts are very similar to mine. I still have a little life in my 243 but thought maybe the creedmoor for this price would tick the boxes and deal with my varmints as well as medium sized game. Brass is not as cheap, projectiles in .264 are slightly more per hundred but barely enough to worry about.

Have you achieved this goal? Any chance you've used the Speer 90gr TNT in your Creed?
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by JimTom » 13 Jan 2019, 5:55 am

bladeracer wrote:
JimTom wrote:Yes mate maybe your Swede and .260 do do over 2700fps, lol, like I said, I am just going off the loading tables. No doubt a Creedmoor could do the same. I don’t load outside the recommended loads of the manufacturers data, so I wouldn’t really know, lol, lol.
Wasn’t having a shot at the Swede mate, couldn’t care less, not into worrying about which rifle had the biggest cock.lol, lol, lol.


I pretty much ignore manufacturer's data as they're all different. Your loads within the specific data you are using may well be outside the data from another manufacturer or manual. I load to what my brass and rifle tell me are acceptable.


Yep that’s fair enough mate. I know there are few reloaders who load more than recommended and do it quite safely. I would suggest that the loading tables are quite conservative when it comes to max loads. I have managed to achieve good accuracy within the recommended loads to date and haven’t had the need to stray outside them.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by SCJ429 » 13 Jan 2019, 9:02 am

The Swede should have two sets of load data like the 45/70 has, one for older actions and one set for modern designs. It is not uncommon to be more than six grains over when loading for a Swede.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by Cooper » 13 Jan 2019, 9:15 am

Cal-ApeR wrote:Your thoughts are very similar to mine. I still have a little life in my 243 but thought maybe the creedmoor for this price would tick the boxes and deal with my varmints as well as medium sized game. Brass is not as cheap, projectiles in .264 are slightly more per hundred but barely enough to worry about.

Have you achieved this goal? Any chance you've used the Speer 90gr TNT in your Creed?


I've used the Speer 90gr TNT in the Creedmoor. I mainly bought them for the Grendel. Speer also make 140 soft point. But I ended using ar2208 with the 90gr TNT in the Creedmoor. Speer have load data. I was using 42.5gr of ar2208 in a Hornady case. I think from memory max is up near 44gr .
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by bigrich » 13 Jan 2019, 9:25 am

SCJ429 wrote:The Swede should have two sets of load data like the 45/70 has, one for older actions and one set for modern designs. It is not uncommon to be more than six grains over when loading for a Swede.


i agree on two sets of load data for the swede . i find nick harvey's load data book to be more realistic, but i stress all loads should be cautiously worked up . a lot of the older cartriges like the 6.5 swede and the 7x57 , even the 30-30 in a ruger No 1 with spitzer bullets , can be loaded up to perform well beyond their original spec safely in a solid modern rifle . i love playing with ballistics. the funnest, cheapest caliber that i got the best groups out of , 22 hornet :unknown:

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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by Cal-ApeR » 13 Jan 2019, 10:39 am

Cooper, how did the Speer perform? Curious to know what sort of groups you were capable of using the lighter projectiles.

I keep flipping back and forth between the idea of getting a spare 243 or a creedmoor. Your input here will help.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by MJW380 » 13 Jan 2019, 10:46 am

One of my mates missus brought a Browning A bolt 3, was fairly cheap, with the intention of using it was a carry around rifle as it’s fairly light, they tried loading up 140 sst’s and it didn’t like them at all, ended up getting some 95gr v-max pills and they make tiny groups at 100
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by SCJ429 » 13 Jan 2019, 11:14 am

I tried some 62 grain Barnes Varmint Genades in my 243, they shot well at 3,900 fps but as soon as I pushed them over 4,000 I couldn't keep them on paper. They were good for vaporising small furry things at 3,900 so I left it at that.

Speer TNT are very accurate for a cheap projectile and frangable. Great for smaller game and if you can't get them to shoot then you are not trying. They do a lot of damage so if you want to keep the pelt you will have to head shoot..
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by marksman » 13 Jan 2019, 11:34 am

bigrich wrote:
SCJ429 wrote:The Swede should have two sets of load data like the 45/70 has, one for older actions and one set for modern designs. It is not uncommon to be more than six grains over when loading for a Swede.


i agree on two sets of load data for the swede . i find nick harvey's load data book to be more realistic, but i stress all loads should be cautiously worked up . a lot of the older cartriges like the 6.5 swede and the 7x57 , even the 30-30 in a ruger No 1 with spitzer bullets , can be loaded up to perform well beyond their original spec safely in a solid modern rifle . i love playing with ballistics. the funnest, cheapest caliber that i got the best groups out of , 22 hornet :unknown:

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+1 :drinks:
with regard to the 6.5x55 you will be able to load to higher pressure by getting a rifle that is a front locker which is why I had mine done on a 98 action
I do run mine well over the book guide marks with no pressure at all
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by Cooper » 13 Jan 2019, 2:02 pm

Cal-ApeR wrote:Cooper, how did the Speer perform? Curious to know what sort of groups you were capable of using the lighter projectiles.

I keep flipping back and forth between the idea of getting a spare 243 or a creedmoor. Your input here will help.


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That at 63 metres. 3 shots. I have a 26 inch barrel. They are extremely explosive out of the Creedmoor. They go fairly good out of the Grendel too! Even though they are a good few hundred feet per second slower out of the 6.5 Grendel.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by Flyer » 13 Jan 2019, 4:26 pm

Cal-ApeR wrote:
Flyer wrote:I think it's worth mentioning the small primer Lapua cases are thick with lots of metal around the primer pockets and some long-range competition shooters are pushing the Creedmoor up to and over 64,000psi. I don't want a barrel burner, but I wouldn't mind a hunting load with a bit of "oomph". I bought the 6.5CM to replace a 243 because I figured the 6.5 could do everything the 243 could do with similar recoil, longer barrel life and also encroach into 308 territory in terms of downrange energy. I wanted a mid-ranged centrefire that could "do everything". I don't think there's anything a 6.5 couldn't account for in the Aussie bush.


Your thoughts are very similar to mine. I still have a little life in my 243 but thought maybe the creedmoor for this price would tick the boxes and deal with my varmints as well as medium sized game. Brass is not as cheap, projectiles in .264 are slightly more per hundred but barely enough to worry about.

Have you achieved this goal? Any chance you've used the Speer 90gr TNT in your Creed?

I haven't used anything lighter than 123gr at this stage.

Brass and projectiles are slightly more than 243, but you tend to have a larger choice of 6.5 projectiles, as well as a choice or large and small primer brass. It also appears 6.5CM brass is coming down in price as the calibre becomes more common. The Starline Brass isn't bad value and comes with a guaranteed five reloads out of every case. But I've seen a video of two guys reloading a Lapua 6.5 Creedmore SRP case 21 times in a row to no ill effect, so that's pretty good value to me, too.

I've seen Federal 6.5CM Powershock 140gr ammo for sale for $25-$30 a box, and I've bought a couple of $30 boxes myself that shot really well and provided some cheap brass. Again, 6.5CM ammo is becoming more common and getting cheaper in price if you want a source of cheap brass or don't fancy reloading.

When it came time to choosing a 6.5, one of the things that swayed me towards the Creedmoor was the greater - and increasing - choice of all the above compared to 260 or even 6.5x55.

I don't notice any real difference in recoil between the 6.5 and 243, but I've shot both at metal gongs and metallic silhouettes and the 6.5 has a much more noticeable ring to it - it definitely hits harder (123gr bullets vs my old .243 87gr V-Max load).

I already have a 223 and rimfires which I shoot a lot, and I wanted one other centrefire to do everything else. I could have added a 7-08 or 308 to my 243, but I decided to rationalise both with a 6.5. I freely admit to jumping on the "manbun bandwagon" due to the CM's popularity, because that just means a greater choice of brass, projectiles and factory ammo that seems to be increasing every year.

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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by Bill » 13 Jan 2019, 5:34 pm

thought this was worth posting up

real world velocities of Factory 120 Amaxs and 142gr Sierra HPBT handloands, barrel lengths from 27 to 16inches.

It would seem the 120s are about 200fps faster than a Grendel and about 200fps slower than a Swede on a bad day......

https://rifleshooter.com/2016/02/6-5-cr ... creedmoor/
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by SCJ429 » 13 Jan 2019, 7:46 pm

Bill wrote:thought this was worth posting up

real world velocities of Factory 120 Amaxs and 142gr Sierra HPBT handloands, barrel lengths from 27 to 16inches.

It would seem the 120s are about 200fps faster than a Grendel and about 200fps slower than a Swede on a bad day......

https://rifleshooter.com/2016/02/6-5-cr ... creedmoor/


Do you mean if the Swede is having a bad day then the CM can get within 200 fps?

By the figures in the link the CM can get nearly 2700 fps out of a 142 grain SMK, I can get over 3000 fps with a Swede shooting 143 grain ELDX. If you run similar pressures in the Swede it has to be faster because it is considerably bigger. Just sayin.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by Bill » 13 Jan 2019, 8:35 pm

Yeap SC429 no substitute for cubes .....

No doubt if youre looking for a mild 6.5 then the creedmoor is a worthy step up from the pope. Its also kinda revealing when you look on usedguns to see how many lighlty shot creedmoors are available, the question is why.......
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by Flyer » 13 Jan 2019, 9:11 pm

SCJ429 wrote:
Bill wrote:thought this was worth posting up

real world velocities of Factory 120 Amaxs and 142gr Sierra HPBT handloands, barrel lengths from 27 to 16inches.

It would seem the 120s are about 200fps faster than a Grendel and about 200fps slower than a Swede on a bad day......

https://rifleshooter.com/2016/02/6-5-cr ... creedmoor/


Do you mean if the Swede is having a bad day then the CM can get within 200 fps?

By the figures in the link the CM can get nearly 2700 fps out of a 142 grain SMK, I can get over 3000 fps with a Swede shooting 143 grain ELDX. If you run similar pressures in the Swede it has to be faster because it is considerably bigger. Just sayin.

Can you run similar pressures though? It's not just the barrelled action but the brass that also determines pressure.

This guy loaded 2gr over book and got close to 2800fps in a 22" sporter barrel using 2209 and 143 ELD-X with no pressure signs in Starline small primer brass. Other powders are faster, like RL17 and Superperformance, so there's a lot of velocity to be had out of the Creedmoor if you push it with the right brass: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0gQCmnYmHU

Quite a few guys are getting 2850-2950fps from 140-143gr bullets out of 26" barrels, too, if you look around.

I'm not saying the Swede isn't faster in a modern action, but I am saying modern brass can push the Creedmoor very close to modern Swede territory.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by SCJ429 » 13 Jan 2019, 9:34 pm

We need someone with a CM to do a ladder test for us, see what it can do with some Lapua brass and fill her up with 2209.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by JimTom » 13 Jan 2019, 10:00 pm

I have a creed, I use Lap brass and load with 2209. Don’t have a chrono though.
Not sure that I’d be keen just to prove a point for the Manbun haters though.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by SCJ429 » 13 Jan 2019, 10:12 pm

Not looking to go to the point of failure but a safe pressure before the bolt gets tight. Do you know anyone with a chrono?
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by marksman » 13 Jan 2019, 10:24 pm

JimTom wrote:I have a creed, I use Lap brass and load with 2209. Don’t have a chrono though.
Not sure that I’d be keen just to prove a point for the Manbun haters though.


dont worry about the manbun haters, but owning a swede and a 6.5x284 I'd like to see what she can do myself :drinks:
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by Flyer » 13 Jan 2019, 10:28 pm

As I mentioned earlier, we've chronoed the following:

24" Sako barrel, 143gr ELD-X, 2209, Lappy SRP brass, BR4 primers

41.5gr = 2650fps
42.0gr = 2680fps
42.5gr = 2710fps

If you extrapolate, that's pretty close to the Youtube guy, but I've got 2" extra barrel and am getting slightly below book values. I can only surmise the rifle is quite new (about 100 rounds through it) and may speed up a little once run in properly. I know it isn't a "Happy chrono", because it's been pretty close to ADI data with lots of other rifles and many loads.


We've also chronoed a 6.5x55 using the same chrono and here are the results:

6.5x55
Sierra Match King 123gr, 2209
44.3gr = 2770fps

Hornady SST 140gr, 2209
43.5gr = 2664fps


6.5CM
Lapua Scenar 123gr, 2209
43.2gr = 2815
44.2gr = 2880
45.2gr = 2960

Hornady ELD-X 143, 2209
41.5gr = 2650fps
42.0gr = 2680fps
42.5gr = 2710fps


The Swede loads were a bit soft, as they were target loads, and that was in a Sako 85 modern action with a 22.5" barrel.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by JimTom » 13 Jan 2019, 10:32 pm

SCJ429 wrote:Not looking to go to the point of failure but a safe pressure before the bolt gets tight. Do you know anyone with a chrono?



Mate unfortunately I don’t know anyone. Would be an interesting experiment though.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by JimTom » 13 Jan 2019, 10:34 pm

marksman wrote:
JimTom wrote:I have a creed, I use Lap brass and load with 2209. Don’t have a chrono though.
Not sure that I’d be keen just to prove a point for the Manbun haters though.


dont worry about the manbun haters, but owning a swede and a 6.5x284 I'd like to see what she can do myself :drinks:


I agree mate, be interesting to see where the CM fits in compared to the others two you mentioned. I have watched a few YouTube clips of long range hunting with the 6.5x284. Pretty impressive stuff eh.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by bladeracer » 13 Jan 2019, 11:51 pm

Flyer wrote:Can you run similar pressures though? It's not just the barrelled action but the brass that also determines pressure.

This guy loaded 2gr over book and got close to 2800fps in a 22" sporter barrel using 2209 and 143 ELD-X with no pressure signs in Starline small primer brass. Other powders are faster, like RL17 and Superperformance, so there's a lot of velocity to be had out of the Creedmoor if you push it with the right brass: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0gQCmnYmHU

Quite a few guys are getting 2850-2950fps from 140-143gr bullets out of 26" barrels, too, if you look around.

I'm not saying the Swede isn't faster in a modern action, but I am saying modern brass can push the Creedmoor very close to modern Swede territory.


Pressure comes down to lots of things. Full-length sized brass will have higher pressure than neck-sized brass due to the smaller case volume, as will seating the bullets longer. Different powders produce different pressures depending on case-fill and bullet weight.

Why would somebody want to run their rifle anywhere close to its pressure limits? Every shot has a higher cost in the life of the bore, the brass and the action. To achieve what though, another 100fps? You can almost always achieve whatever goal you've set yourself by means other than working a rifle to destruction, like trying with a different cartridge, or a longer barrel with a slower powder.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by Flyer » 14 Jan 2019, 1:26 am

It's all relative, isn't it?

A 22-250 will burn barrels faster than a 243 which will burn barrels faster than a 260 which will burn barrels faster than a 7-08 which will burn barrels faster than a 308 etc, all running similar pressures.

So by your logic - and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm going by this post . . .
bladeracer wrote:If I want more velocity I grab a different rifle. I'm quite happy to load them comfortably for accuracy without being concerned about velocity.

. . . You would rather grab a barrel-burning calibre to go faster than explore the rifle you already have?

I'm not sure I get it.

The Creedmoor was designed from the start for long-range competition. It will easily handle higher pressures than most 6.5x55 and other cartridges due to its steep shoulder, thicker brass, short action and small primer pockets. Creedmoor chamber tolerances are also a lot tighter than other SAAMI spec cartridges - especially military based ones such as 6.5x55 - so they don't work the brass as much, and there is a lot less difference in case capacity between full-length and neck-sized brass.

What I'm saying is, why would you go to an inferior (in terms of expected barrel life) cartridge to get more velocity when you can use the Creedmoor towards its full potential . . . and still have better barrel life than a 243?

The 6.5CM burns less powder for the same velocity as the 260 and 6.5x55 - which are both going to burn barrels faster than the CM. So what's not to like?
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by bladeracer » 14 Jan 2019, 3:47 am

Flyer wrote:It's all relative, isn't it?

A 22-250 will burn barrels faster than a 243 which will burn barrels faster than a 260 which will burn barrels faster than a 7-08 which will burn barrels faster than a 308 etc, all running similar pressures.

So by your logic - and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm going by this post . . .
bladeracer wrote:If I want more velocity I grab a different rifle. I'm quite happy to load them comfortably for accuracy without being concerned about velocity.

. . . You would rather grab a barrel-burning calibre to go faster than explore the rifle you already have?

I'm not sure I get it.

The Creedmoor was designed from the start for long-range competition. It will easily handle higher pressures than most 6.5x55 and other cartridges due to its steep shoulder, thicker brass, short action and small primer pockets. Creedmoor chamber tolerances are also a lot tighter than other SAAMI spec cartridges - especially military based ones such as 6.5x55 - so they don't work the brass as much, and there is a lot less difference in case capacity between full-length and neck-sized brass.

What I'm saying is, why would you go to an inferior (in terms of expected barrel life) cartridge to get more velocity when you can use the Creedmoor towards its full potential . . . and still have better barrel life than a 243?

The 6.5CM burns less powder for the same velocity as the 260 and 6.5x55 - which are both going to burn barrels faster than the CM. So what's not to like?


My use of the word velocity was a poor choice, energy would be more precise. If the rifle I'm using won't achieve my goal without having to run it at the ragged edge, I'll use a different rifle or cartridge that will provide the result at lower pressures. That cartridge won't be the .22-250 as it does nothing for me at all. If I'm shooting my 6.5x50mm and it's not giving me the result I want, then I'll try a 6.5x55mm, 6.5x58mm, 6.5-06, etc, and if I still can't get where I'm going with a 6.5mm bullet, then 7mmRemMag, .300WinMag and so on, until I'm happy with the result. Or, more likely well before that point, I'll re-examine the goal to see if there is simply a more-effective way of reaching it altogether, like learning to stalk a hundred meters closer to my target, or learning to read the wind better rather than rely on more velocity. I don't see any genuine reason to push any rifle into the realm of barrel-burning, unless your goal is the bragging rights of burning out a barrel in the least number of shots. I guess if you only have one rifle, and you need to get the absolute maximum out of it, then you have to weigh the damage you're doing against the result you're getting. But I see no positive value in simply trying to drastically reduce the life of your firearm. Choose something that is more realistically able to achieve your needs. Only one of my firearms (.204) is loaded even close to factory levels, but still well short of case-damaging pressures, everything else runs at significantly lower pressures. Even if I owned a barrel-burner, I'd be running it at reduced pressures anyway. The reason I asked about being able to run longer rounds is because it reduces the pressures for the same velocities. It's also why I really like using high-BC bullets, they hit harder but with lower velocities/pressures.

In these "comparison" discussions it seems to invariably come down to how much velocity a particular cartridge can achieve over others. I see it and just wonder, who cares what velocity it might be possible to push any of them. What matters to me is which one is more consistently accurate, or even more importantly, easier to build accurate loads for. I don't want a rifle like a two-stroke Grand Prix motorcycle that needs to be rebuilt and tuned for each specific circuit, on each day, for each race. I want a "four-stroke" rifle that does the job every time I take it out, regardless of the conditions, and without wearing itself out.

My dealer is a huge 6.5mm fan, so he eventually got himself a .264WinMag. It took him quite a long time to nail down an accurate load, but as soon as he'd found it, the rifle reused to maintain it. He worked out that he had put 500rds through it to find this load, and had totally destroyed the throat. It cost him two-dollars worth of barrel for each of those shots. He rebarreled it with a 7mm (I think he said 7x57mm) and sold it on. He mainly shoots long-range cartridges, .338Lap, .300WinMag, and such so I'm guessing he knows about barrel burning.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by bigrich » 14 Jan 2019, 5:04 am

If you’re going to compare different 6.5’s you are going to do your head in . They all have different pro’s and con’s . I happened to love the old Swede military rifles because of the build quality and outstanding accuracy you can get out of them . I transferred that over for my hunting purposes to a model 70 Winchester with a madco barrel. The chamber tolerance is much tighter than a military barrel. My only reason for experimenting with velocity in mine was to aid bullet expansion and to try to find a accurate load for hunting. If people want to run extreme velocity that’s their business, it will shorten barrel life considerably
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by Cal-ApeR » 14 Jan 2019, 10:49 am

Thanks Cooper & Flyer. Much the same thought process here to what you're both thinking. I'll mull out over some more but think I'm going to lean towards the creedmoor.

Btw- both great groups. What were you Gents shooting out of?
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by Cooper » 14 Jan 2019, 11:22 am

Cal-ApeR wrote:Thanks Cooper & Flyer. Much the same thought process here to what you're both thinking. I'll mull out over some more but think I'm going to lean towards the creedmoor.

Btw- both great groups. What were you Gents shooting out of?


Mines a 26 inch varmint barrel Howa in a GRS Berserk stock. I think I did chrono the 90gr TNT. They weren’t as fast as I thought they would be around 3200 or something. The 143 Eld-X are doing 2700 FPS in a Lapua case was only 38.9 of AR2209. My barrel seemed to gain about 50 FPS after I had a couple of hundred shots down the barrel.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by Flyer » 14 Jan 2019, 12:51 pm

I've got a standard Sako A7 Roughtech Pro. I even managed to talk Jim Tom into buying one :lol:
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The A7 Roughtech Pro and Range models have an alloy bedding block system fixed to an alloy X-frame in their synthetic stock, so they actually have a better bedding system than a Sako 85, IMO. They also top load - which I prefer over the Tikka's mag-load system - and come in different sized actions. The 24" fluted barrel is a mid-weight, so a little larger diameter than a standard sporter. Weights 3.4kg so is easy to carry around and very accurate.
The laws of physics do not apply to politics.
Flyer
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