Howa 6.5creed

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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by SCJ429 » 13 Jan 2019, 10:12 pm

Not looking to go to the point of failure but a safe pressure before the bolt gets tight. Do you know anyone with a chrono?
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by marksman » 13 Jan 2019, 10:24 pm

JimTom wrote:I have a creed, I use Lap brass and load with 2209. Don’t have a chrono though.
Not sure that I’d be keen just to prove a point for the Manbun haters though.


dont worry about the manbun haters, but owning a swede and a 6.5x284 I'd like to see what she can do myself :drinks:
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by Flyer » 13 Jan 2019, 10:28 pm

As I mentioned earlier, we've chronoed the following:

24" Sako barrel, 143gr ELD-X, 2209, Lappy SRP brass, BR4 primers

41.5gr = 2650fps
42.0gr = 2680fps
42.5gr = 2710fps

If you extrapolate, that's pretty close to the Youtube guy, but I've got 2" extra barrel and am getting slightly below book values. I can only surmise the rifle is quite new (about 100 rounds through it) and may speed up a little once run in properly. I know it isn't a "Happy chrono", because it's been pretty close to ADI data with lots of other rifles and many loads.


We've also chronoed a 6.5x55 using the same chrono and here are the results:

6.5x55
Sierra Match King 123gr, 2209
44.3gr = 2770fps

Hornady SST 140gr, 2209
43.5gr = 2664fps


6.5CM
Lapua Scenar 123gr, 2209
43.2gr = 2815
44.2gr = 2880
45.2gr = 2960

Hornady ELD-X 143, 2209
41.5gr = 2650fps
42.0gr = 2680fps
42.5gr = 2710fps


The Swede loads were a bit soft, as they were target loads, and that was in a Sako 85 modern action with a 22.5" barrel.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by JimTom » 13 Jan 2019, 10:32 pm

SCJ429 wrote:Not looking to go to the point of failure but a safe pressure before the bolt gets tight. Do you know anyone with a chrono?



Mate unfortunately I don’t know anyone. Would be an interesting experiment though.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by JimTom » 13 Jan 2019, 10:34 pm

marksman wrote:
JimTom wrote:I have a creed, I use Lap brass and load with 2209. Don’t have a chrono though.
Not sure that I’d be keen just to prove a point for the Manbun haters though.


dont worry about the manbun haters, but owning a swede and a 6.5x284 I'd like to see what she can do myself :drinks:


I agree mate, be interesting to see where the CM fits in compared to the others two you mentioned. I have watched a few YouTube clips of long range hunting with the 6.5x284. Pretty impressive stuff eh.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by bladeracer » 13 Jan 2019, 11:51 pm

Flyer wrote:Can you run similar pressures though? It's not just the barrelled action but the brass that also determines pressure.

This guy loaded 2gr over book and got close to 2800fps in a 22" sporter barrel using 2209 and 143 ELD-X with no pressure signs in Starline small primer brass. Other powders are faster, like RL17 and Superperformance, so there's a lot of velocity to be had out of the Creedmoor if you push it with the right brass: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0gQCmnYmHU

Quite a few guys are getting 2850-2950fps from 140-143gr bullets out of 26" barrels, too, if you look around.

I'm not saying the Swede isn't faster in a modern action, but I am saying modern brass can push the Creedmoor very close to modern Swede territory.


Pressure comes down to lots of things. Full-length sized brass will have higher pressure than neck-sized brass due to the smaller case volume, as will seating the bullets longer. Different powders produce different pressures depending on case-fill and bullet weight.

Why would somebody want to run their rifle anywhere close to its pressure limits? Every shot has a higher cost in the life of the bore, the brass and the action. To achieve what though, another 100fps? You can almost always achieve whatever goal you've set yourself by means other than working a rifle to destruction, like trying with a different cartridge, or a longer barrel with a slower powder.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by Flyer » 14 Jan 2019, 1:26 am

It's all relative, isn't it?

A 22-250 will burn barrels faster than a 243 which will burn barrels faster than a 260 which will burn barrels faster than a 7-08 which will burn barrels faster than a 308 etc, all running similar pressures.

So by your logic - and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm going by this post . . .
bladeracer wrote:If I want more velocity I grab a different rifle. I'm quite happy to load them comfortably for accuracy without being concerned about velocity.

. . . You would rather grab a barrel-burning calibre to go faster than explore the rifle you already have?

I'm not sure I get it.

The Creedmoor was designed from the start for long-range competition. It will easily handle higher pressures than most 6.5x55 and other cartridges due to its steep shoulder, thicker brass, short action and small primer pockets. Creedmoor chamber tolerances are also a lot tighter than other SAAMI spec cartridges - especially military based ones such as 6.5x55 - so they don't work the brass as much, and there is a lot less difference in case capacity between full-length and neck-sized brass.

What I'm saying is, why would you go to an inferior (in terms of expected barrel life) cartridge to get more velocity when you can use the Creedmoor towards its full potential . . . and still have better barrel life than a 243?

The 6.5CM burns less powder for the same velocity as the 260 and 6.5x55 - which are both going to burn barrels faster than the CM. So what's not to like?
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by bladeracer » 14 Jan 2019, 3:47 am

Flyer wrote:It's all relative, isn't it?

A 22-250 will burn barrels faster than a 243 which will burn barrels faster than a 260 which will burn barrels faster than a 7-08 which will burn barrels faster than a 308 etc, all running similar pressures.

So by your logic - and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm going by this post . . .
bladeracer wrote:If I want more velocity I grab a different rifle. I'm quite happy to load them comfortably for accuracy without being concerned about velocity.

. . . You would rather grab a barrel-burning calibre to go faster than explore the rifle you already have?

I'm not sure I get it.

The Creedmoor was designed from the start for long-range competition. It will easily handle higher pressures than most 6.5x55 and other cartridges due to its steep shoulder, thicker brass, short action and small primer pockets. Creedmoor chamber tolerances are also a lot tighter than other SAAMI spec cartridges - especially military based ones such as 6.5x55 - so they don't work the brass as much, and there is a lot less difference in case capacity between full-length and neck-sized brass.

What I'm saying is, why would you go to an inferior (in terms of expected barrel life) cartridge to get more velocity when you can use the Creedmoor towards its full potential . . . and still have better barrel life than a 243?

The 6.5CM burns less powder for the same velocity as the 260 and 6.5x55 - which are both going to burn barrels faster than the CM. So what's not to like?


My use of the word velocity was a poor choice, energy would be more precise. If the rifle I'm using won't achieve my goal without having to run it at the ragged edge, I'll use a different rifle or cartridge that will provide the result at lower pressures. That cartridge won't be the .22-250 as it does nothing for me at all. If I'm shooting my 6.5x50mm and it's not giving me the result I want, then I'll try a 6.5x55mm, 6.5x58mm, 6.5-06, etc, and if I still can't get where I'm going with a 6.5mm bullet, then 7mmRemMag, .300WinMag and so on, until I'm happy with the result. Or, more likely well before that point, I'll re-examine the goal to see if there is simply a more-effective way of reaching it altogether, like learning to stalk a hundred meters closer to my target, or learning to read the wind better rather than rely on more velocity. I don't see any genuine reason to push any rifle into the realm of barrel-burning, unless your goal is the bragging rights of burning out a barrel in the least number of shots. I guess if you only have one rifle, and you need to get the absolute maximum out of it, then you have to weigh the damage you're doing against the result you're getting. But I see no positive value in simply trying to drastically reduce the life of your firearm. Choose something that is more realistically able to achieve your needs. Only one of my firearms (.204) is loaded even close to factory levels, but still well short of case-damaging pressures, everything else runs at significantly lower pressures. Even if I owned a barrel-burner, I'd be running it at reduced pressures anyway. The reason I asked about being able to run longer rounds is because it reduces the pressures for the same velocities. It's also why I really like using high-BC bullets, they hit harder but with lower velocities/pressures.

In these "comparison" discussions it seems to invariably come down to how much velocity a particular cartridge can achieve over others. I see it and just wonder, who cares what velocity it might be possible to push any of them. What matters to me is which one is more consistently accurate, or even more importantly, easier to build accurate loads for. I don't want a rifle like a two-stroke Grand Prix motorcycle that needs to be rebuilt and tuned for each specific circuit, on each day, for each race. I want a "four-stroke" rifle that does the job every time I take it out, regardless of the conditions, and without wearing itself out.

My dealer is a huge 6.5mm fan, so he eventually got himself a .264WinMag. It took him quite a long time to nail down an accurate load, but as soon as he'd found it, the rifle reused to maintain it. He worked out that he had put 500rds through it to find this load, and had totally destroyed the throat. It cost him two-dollars worth of barrel for each of those shots. He rebarreled it with a 7mm (I think he said 7x57mm) and sold it on. He mainly shoots long-range cartridges, .338Lap, .300WinMag, and such so I'm guessing he knows about barrel burning.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by bigrich » 14 Jan 2019, 5:04 am

If you’re going to compare different 6.5’s you are going to do your head in . They all have different pro’s and con’s . I happened to love the old Swede military rifles because of the build quality and outstanding accuracy you can get out of them . I transferred that over for my hunting purposes to a model 70 Winchester with a madco barrel. The chamber tolerance is much tighter than a military barrel. My only reason for experimenting with velocity in mine was to aid bullet expansion and to try to find a accurate load for hunting. If people want to run extreme velocity that’s their business, it will shorten barrel life considerably
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by Cal-ApeR » 14 Jan 2019, 10:49 am

Thanks Cooper & Flyer. Much the same thought process here to what you're both thinking. I'll mull out over some more but think I'm going to lean towards the creedmoor.

Btw- both great groups. What were you Gents shooting out of?
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by Cooper » 14 Jan 2019, 11:22 am

Cal-ApeR wrote:Thanks Cooper & Flyer. Much the same thought process here to what you're both thinking. I'll mull out over some more but think I'm going to lean towards the creedmoor.

Btw- both great groups. What were you Gents shooting out of?


Mines a 26 inch varmint barrel Howa in a GRS Berserk stock. I think I did chrono the 90gr TNT. They weren’t as fast as I thought they would be around 3200 or something. The 143 Eld-X are doing 2700 FPS in a Lapua case was only 38.9 of AR2209. My barrel seemed to gain about 50 FPS after I had a couple of hundred shots down the barrel.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by Flyer » 14 Jan 2019, 12:51 pm

I've got a standard Sako A7 Roughtech Pro. I even managed to talk Jim Tom into buying one :lol:
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Image
The A7 Roughtech Pro and Range models have an alloy bedding block system fixed to an alloy X-frame in their synthetic stock, so they actually have a better bedding system than a Sako 85, IMO. They also top load - which I prefer over the Tikka's mag-load system - and come in different sized actions. The 24" fluted barrel is a mid-weight, so a little larger diameter than a standard sporter. Weights 3.4kg so is easy to carry around and very accurate.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by Flyer » 14 Jan 2019, 1:34 pm

bladeracer wrote:My use of the word velocity was a poor choice, energy would be more precise. If the rifle I'm using won't achieve my goal without having to run it at the ragged edge, I'll use a different rifle or cartridge that will provide the result at lower pressures. That cartridge won't be the .22-250 as it does nothing for me at all. If I'm shooting my 6.5x50mm and it's not giving me the result I want, then I'll try a 6.5x55mm, 6.5x58mm, 6.5-06, etc, and if I still can't get where I'm going with a 6.5mm bullet, then 7mmRemMag, .300WinMag and so on, until I'm happy with the result. Or, more likely well before that point, I'll re-examine the goal to see if there is simply a more-effective way of reaching it altogether, like learning to stalk a hundred meters closer to my target, or learning to read the wind better rather than rely on more velocity. I don't see any genuine reason to push any rifle into the realm of barrel-burning, unless your goal is the bragging rights of burning out a barrel in the least number of shots. I guess if you only have one rifle, and you need to get the absolute maximum out of it, then you have to weigh the damage you're doing against the result you're getting. But I see no positive value in simply trying to drastically reduce the life of your firearm. Choose something that is more realistically able to achieve your needs. Only one of my firearms (.204) is loaded even close to factory levels, but still well short of case-damaging pressures, everything else runs at significantly lower pressures. Even if I owned a barrel-burner, I'd be running it at reduced pressures anyway. The reason I asked about being able to run longer rounds is because it reduces the pressures for the same velocities. It's also why I really like using high-BC bullets, they hit harder but with lower velocities/pressures.

In these "comparison" discussions it seems to invariably come down to how much velocity a particular cartridge can achieve over others. I see it and just wonder, who cares what velocity it might be possible to push any of them. What matters to me is which one is more consistently accurate, or even more importantly, easier to build accurate loads for. I don't want a rifle like a two-stroke Grand Prix motorcycle that needs to be rebuilt and tuned for each specific circuit, on each day, for each race. I want a "four-stroke" rifle that does the job every time I take it out, regardless of the conditions, and without wearing itself out.

My dealer is a huge 6.5mm fan, so he eventually got himself a .264WinMag. It took him quite a long time to nail down an accurate load, but as soon as he'd found it, the rifle reused to maintain it. He worked out that he had put 500rds through it to find this load, and had totally destroyed the throat. It cost him two-dollars worth of barrel for each of those shots. He rebarreled it with a 7mm (I think he said 7x57mm) and sold it on. He mainly shoots long-range cartridges, .338Lap, .300WinMag, and such so I'm guessing he knows about barrel burning.

Maximum pressure is maximum pressure - regardless of bullet size/weight. Heavy bullets have higher inertia, so build pressure faster (or spike sooner) for the same burn rate - hence why slower powders are used for heavier bullets.

Longer/heavier bullets for calibre also burn barrels faster, as they have a longer dwell time that enables hot, high-pressure gases to dwell longer in the throat area.

Fact is, the more powder you need to get the job done for the same sized bullet, the more heat energy you are putting into the throat area. The most efficient cartridge is the one that reaches the same velocity for the least amount of powder. A 6.5-284 is going to burn barrels faster - even shooting at reduced loads - than a 6.5CM for the same velocity, because a 6.5-284 needs more powder to do it.

Regardless, I don't have the luxury of being able to reach for 6.5x50, 6.5x55. 6.5x58 or 6.5-06 - there is no way WAPOL would allow me to have four 6.5s on one open license! (You'd need a club or collector's license.)

Likewise, if I wanted extreme barrel life, I could have bought a 308. But I doubt a hunter would ever burn out a 6.5CM - even at the most extreme loads - shooting a few dozen rounds a year.

I bought the 6.5CM because it will shoot anything from 90-160gr and do it efficiently in a short action (stiffer, weight-saving, shorter throw etc) and with a great choice of brass, projectiles and factory ammo. It's also an inherently accurate round.

If I shoot the barrel out, well I'll just get a new one - it's still cheaper than owning four different 6.5s! :lol:
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by bladeracer » 14 Jan 2019, 2:44 pm

Flyer wrote:I bought the 6.5CM because it will shoot anything from 90-160gr and do it efficiently in a short action (stiffer, weight-saving, shorter throw etc) and with a great choice of brass, projectiles and factory ammo. It's also an inherently accurate round.

If I shoot the barrel out, well I'll just get a new one - it's still cheaper than owning four different 6.5s! :lol:


The short action is the biggest advantage the Creedmoor offers, in my opinion, and it's a very valid one. I think all 6.5mm chamberings offer excellent inherent accuracy simply because they use 6.5mm bullets.

A good point well made :-)
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by marksman » 14 Jan 2019, 3:10 pm

if you are buying a rifle because it will not be a barrel burner you are settling for second best :thumbsup: :drinks:

just build a mauser 98 6.5x284 and be done with it :drinks: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by bigrich » 14 Jan 2019, 3:52 pm

me personally if i get another 6.5 it'll be a 6.5-06 . they all have their uses . mind you , a sako barvarian ( no open sights ) in 6.5x55 would really float my boat . i think the 6.5 family is a good do-all for most australian game, AND lends itself to target shooting quite readily . but i don't need to convince the posters on this topic do i ? ;) here's my 6.5x55 hunting loads ,and yes, the photo's are on their side :roll: the first two shots just about go through the same hole, the third is the flyer. after the first two shots most game has run off anyway :D

:drinks: :drinks: :thumbsup:
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120 nosler bt load , 2950 FPS and it groups well @100
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my 125 gn nosler partition load , 2750 FPS @100
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by Cal-ApeR » 14 Jan 2019, 5:40 pm

Love it fellas. Thanks for all the info. Thinking I'll lean towards getting Howa mentioned in the original post. Price is good.
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Re: Howa 6.5creed

Post by bigrich » 14 Jan 2019, 6:28 pm

Cal-ApeR wrote:Love it fellas. Thanks for all the info. Thinking I'll lean towards getting Howa mentioned in the original post. Price is good.


make sure you give us a review when you get it :D

:drinks: :drinks: :thumbsup:
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