Why aren't all rifle actions bridged?

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Why aren't all rifle actions bridged?

Post by dustin » 02 Feb 2014, 8:53 am

G'day,

I was talking with the bloke at my LGS and learned that bridged actions make for the most accurate rifles as they're more rigid.

He was talking up the Tikka for me over its expensive brother Sako because he reckons they shoot just as well if not better with the bridged action. He pointed out the Sako TRG-22 and TRG-42 target rifles both have bridged actions too.

All sounds right to me, so.... Why aren't all rifle actions bridged if they are always more accurate?
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Re: Why aren't all rifle actions bridged?

Post by Chronos » 02 Feb 2014, 9:05 am

Comes down to requirements really.

A company builds an action to be used for hunting. Chambered the rifle OC calibers from .204R to .308 or 30-06. It's likely that weight is more of a consideration than outright accuracy so its design reflects this brief

The tikka T3 action has a tiny ejection port, making it quite strong for its weight

Some shooters fit large bridge mounts like the game reaper mount however only if both the mount and the action are perfectly straight will the mount improve the actions strength.

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Re: Why aren't all rifle actions bridged?

Post by kritch » 02 Feb 2014, 11:46 am

You can't top feed bridged actions also?
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Re: Why aren't all rifle actions bridged?

Post by Herdsman » 06 Feb 2014, 9:36 am

kritch wrote:You can't top feed bridged actions also?


You can top feed them.

You can't top load magazines though.
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Re: Why aren't all rifle actions bridged?

Post by ghunther » 06 Feb 2014, 9:51 am

Herdsman wrote:You can top feed them.

You can't top load magazines though.


A shame magazines are so expensive and you can't keep a few loaded 10shots in your pocket :(
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Re: Why aren't all rifle actions bridged?

Post by stevy » 06 Feb 2014, 11:05 am

ghunther wrote:A shame magazines are so expensive and you can't keep a few loaded 10shots in your pocket :(


Yer... $130 or whatever for a little plastic or metal box. :roll:

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Re: Why aren't all rifle actions bridged?

Post by dustin » 12 Mar 2014, 2:33 pm

Thanks Chronos.

I wouldn't have thought the weight would be significant from such a small amount of extra material but I suppose every bit counts.

Top loading doesn't really bother me, but I know a lot of people are big on that.

Thanks to all.
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Re: Why aren't all rifle actions bridged?

Post by reddog » 14 Mar 2014, 7:39 am

:lol: now the Tikka's are better than Sako's ?

Some salesmen are only interested in selling you what's in stock and will tell you all sorts of bull about rifles and calibres to get a sale.

It is the same reason target rifles are single shot it makes them stiffer with no magazine cut out.

But obviously for hunting it doesn't suit everyone to have a highly accurate rifle that doesn't have a quick follow up shot.

I would think the main reason actions are bridged are for three lug bolts, also depends on the manufacturing process.
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Re: Why aren't all rifle actions bridged?

Post by dustin » 14 Mar 2014, 7:53 am

Nah he didn't have anything bad to say about Sako.

Like I sorta said though, he said the Tikka will shoot just as good for half the price. That seems like a fair comment to me based on some of the group accuracy photos and stuff I see here?

Wasn't trying to say Tikka was better or worse or either way, I was just wondering about the bridged action specifically and had Tikka and Sako as an example ;)
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Re: Why aren't all rifle actions bridged?

Post by 1290 » 14 Mar 2014, 9:24 am

Edzackery, SALESMEN will sell you what has a better profit margin OR what is in stock.....

Personally, I form an opinion before entering the salesroom (LGS)...

Bridged actions? hoohaa. Benefit of a ported action, as in one with a small loading/ejecting window depends on so many factors, material, type of action - front or read locking, type of bolt head fixed or floating.
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Re: Why aren't all rifle actions bridged?

Post by Monty » 14 Mar 2014, 11:30 am

1290 wrote:Bridged actions? hoohaa. Benefit of a ported action, as in one with a small loading/ejecting window depends on so many factors, material, type of action - front or read locking, type of bolt head fixed or floating.


I wouldn't call it 'hoo haa' but there's a distinction to be made between "better" and "beneficial" which I think the majority of people overlook.

From an engineering standpoint:
Does bridging an action make it more rigid? Yes.
Potentially, would a more rigid action shoot more accurately than a more flexible one? Yes.
Do either of those things have any bearing whatsoever on the intended result of using the firearm? In some cases - yes. In the majority of cases - I expect not.

For the sake of argument lets say that bridged and non-bridged versions of the Sako rifles where available and bridging turns a 0.3 MOA rifle into a 0.25 MOA rifle (totally making these numbers up here).

If you're shooting the TRG-42 at 1500m for best possible groups then yes, the bridged action is "better" because there is a measurable benefit.

If you're hunting deer at up to 100m with an Sako 85 Hunter though... In this situation is a bridged 85 shooting 0.25 MOA "better" than an un-bridged 85 shooting 0.3 MOA?

The purpose of hunting is to bag the deer; at this distance, with either rifle, you place the cross hairs over the deer's heart, you pull the trigger, the shot will hit and the deer is caught.

Some people will obviously still say the bridged rifle is better because it shoots more accurately but from a pragmatic, practical, measurable and results based viewpoint neither rifle is superior because the end results from both are identical.

"Better" vs "Beneficial".
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Re: Why aren't all rifle actions bridged?

Post by 1290 » 15 Mar 2014, 12:39 pm

You will note that I never actually said there was no benefit, ((provided that by bridged the op refers to small ported type actions)) If the reference is to a one-piece optic mount screwed onto the action by way of 2x tiny screws... then I place my hands to my face....

Their is absolutely an increase in stiffness from such an action, the question is whether that stiffer action has any effect whatsoever from the bolt luggs & barrel union forward....

Rigid bolt (front locking); if slightly out-of lugg alignment, will generate an axial moment at the rear of the action, ie. the end of the bolt will 'push' in the opposite direction to the mis-alignment at the front - benefit in a stiffer is less flex in the action, benefits by reducing flex and scope and stock movement etc.

Floating bolt head (front locking); bolt head SELF aligns when the action locks, as such the Savage generates zero axial moment at the rear, zero flex in the action from this longitudinal force on the bolt face. What a revelation, Savs have inherent accuracy... dont let the secret get out or Rem, marlin and others will move to the floating bolt head as well as barrel nut set-up.... Oh they already have. This is also why Remchesters benefit (require??) hours of smithing to get them up to scratch when thing are just not right bolt/action wise, this is also why Savages dont need/require or benefit from the same blueprinting, action boring bolt aligning etc....(popcorn here)

Now, taking less material from the member yes it does leave a more rigid action, and would actually represent less machining and a saving$ in the manufacture BUT a small port is more difficult to top feed/single feed and require a reconfig of the current accepted models/aesthetics.

A final point when considering a one twentieth MoA increase in accuracy (or reduction in dispersion), just from you heart beating your hold will probably generate more movement in the muzzle, standing or even holding with a bipod....
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Re: Why aren't all rifle actions bridged?

Post by Chronos » 15 Mar 2014, 2:40 pm

Hey 1290, you seem to know a bit about this topic so i'd like to ask, why haven't other manufacturers taken on the floating bolt head design? is it a patent thing?

i understand the floating bolt head might help to account for poor machining tolerances that might have the round not in the center of the chamber (off to one side) but assuming the bolt and action are machined well is there any need to have the bolt float?

i've never looked at a savage bolt as i've only owned remington, tikka and cz rifles but i found this video. very informative but seems a bit like it's a promotional video made by savage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x51SwCZCHCA
thanks, Chronos
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Re: Why aren't all rifle actions bridged?

Post by Monty » 15 Mar 2014, 4:32 pm

1290 wrote:You will note that I never actually said there was no benefit


My comment wasn't aimed at you for any reason. Just following on from it with some thoughts...
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Re: Why aren't all rifle actions bridged?

Post by 1290 » 16 Mar 2014, 4:00 pm

Hey Chronos,

The vid is promotional, but why not when you've got a good thing going, right?

As I mentioned, others have adopted Savage's manufacturing techniques... including the 2 or 3 piece bolt (floating bolt head) and the barrel nut system. These were actually adopted by Savage to expedite manufacture as the aim of the Savage 110 was to introduce a rifle costing $110, hence the model designation.

Patent wise, it is strange that all of a sudden others are junping on board the 110 'patented' design compnents, maybe the patent from the 60's has expired, who knows....50years + now!

Remington have now introduce floating bolt head and barrel nut (m783), Marlin with the model X7 and Ruger with the barrel nut on the American, there may be others.

These expediencies actually turned out to add to the accuracy potential of the rifles, with the barrel nut allowing the quick headspacing of the chambered barrel and adjustment thereof without further reaming effectively.... (also switch barrel made easy!)
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Re: Why aren't all rifle actions bridged?

Post by Rakk » 16 Mar 2014, 4:16 pm

The floating bolt head idea is definitely clever.
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Re: Why aren't all rifle actions bridged?

Post by Chronos » 16 Mar 2014, 8:15 pm

1290 wrote:Hey Chronos,

The vid is promotional, but why not when you've got a good thing going, right?

As I mentioned, others have adopted Savage's manufacturing techniques... including the 2 or 3 piece bolt (floating bolt head) and the barrel nut system. These were actually adopted by Savage to expedite manufacture as the aim of the Savage 110 was to introduce a rifle costing $110, hence the model designation.

Patent wise, it is strange that all of a sudden others are junping on board the 110 'patented' design compnents, maybe the patent from the 60's has expired, who knows....50years + now!

Remington have now introduce floating bolt head and barrel nut (m783), Marlin with the model X7 and Ruger with the barrel nut on the American, there may be others.

These expediencies actually turned out to add to the accuracy potential of the rifles, with the barrel nut allowing the quick headspacing of the chambered barrel and adjustment thereof without further reaming effectively.... (also switch barrel made easy!)


Not sure I understand the switch barrel thing. With my tikka I simply screw the barrel off and screw the new one on. How is having a barrel nut and, I presume a go gauge and some kind if special spanner a better way to change barrels? I guess it means you don't necessarily need a gunsmith to set the headspace on the lathe.

Sorry to take the thread so far off topic

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Re: Why aren't all rifle actions bridged?

Post by dustin » 16 Apr 2014, 9:31 am

Monty wrote:I wouldn't call it 'hoo haa' but there's a distinction to be made between "better" and "beneficial" which I think the majority of people overlook.


Yeah I'm with you. That's a good point.
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Re: Why aren't all rifle actions bridged?

Post by Warrigul » 16 Apr 2014, 10:32 am

dustin wrote:
Monty wrote:I wouldn't call it 'hoo haa' but there's a distinction to be made between "better" and "beneficial" which I think the majority of people overlook.


Yeah I'm with you. That's a good point.



FWIW I am privileged to regularly shoot one of the early sportco variants, submitted for testing, capable of taking a modified 10 shot or standard SLR mag. Despite the hole in the bottom of the action there is no appreciable difference in accuracy between it and a standard Omark using issue 144 grain 7.62.

Would that statement stand up to testing if a 30" barrel and target ammo used? I don't know?

In some eyes a magazine fed Omark is a better thing, to others the potential loss in accuracy is worse. (and the magazine is a pain in the arse prone)

If all you are ever going to do is shoot off the mound then the addition of a magazine is pointless and you are better off with a solid action in single shot.
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Re: Why aren't all rifle actions bridged?

Post by Aster » 16 Apr 2014, 4:20 pm

Gotta say I'm not really a fan of magazines all round.

Even hunting 4-5 max is all you need IMO, whatever can fit in an internal magazine. 3 is more than enough really...

A 10 shot mag just adds weight and gets in the way IMO.
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Re: Why aren't all rifle actions bridged?

Post by Westy » 16 Apr 2014, 6:30 pm

Aster wrote:Gotta say I'm not really a fan of magazines all round.

Even hunting 4-5 max is all you need IMO, whatever can fit in an internal magazine. 3 is more than enough really...

A 10 shot mag just adds weight and gets in the way IMO.

I'm with you on this one ;) more than 2 shots and it has gone for good!!!!
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Re: Why aren't all rifle actions bridged?

Post by Lorgar » 17 Apr 2014, 11:35 am

Agreed, long mags are a pain.

Reloading mags in general is a pain IMO... I'd much rather be able to top load 3 shots straight in to the internal box than dick around removing and filling a 10 shot mag, even if I do have to load the internal one more often it's much easier.
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Re: Why aren't all rifle actions bridged?

Post by heeple » 17 Apr 2014, 11:36 am

You can't top load Tikka's though can you?
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Re: Why aren't all rifle actions bridged?

Post by Lorgar » 17 Apr 2014, 11:39 am

No you can't, and that's the one thing I dislike about them.

Previously I had a Ruger Hawkeye with an internal 4 shot mag which you could top load.

My regular hunting buddy has a Scout with the 10 shot mag... Can't top load.

All else being equal, I'd take the Hawkeye any day for the mag.
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Re: Why aren't all rifle actions bridged?

Post by Lorgar » 17 Apr 2014, 11:40 am

Sorry just to clarify about the Tikka...

You can top feed it for single shots. You can't top load the magazine full.
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Re: Why aren't all rifle actions bridged?

Post by dustin » 17 Apr 2014, 11:42 am

Thanks for the extra replies guys.
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Re: Why aren't all rifle actions bridged?

Post by heeple » 17 Apr 2014, 11:43 am

Cool, thanks Lorgar.
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