Getting a no.4 enfield 45ACP

[mickb]

Looking to get one of these for subsonic hunting, mostly plugging pigs on small farms. They are serious dollars, 3k, but I have a lever action or two I can sell. I was surprised to see quite a few blokes interested in subsonics here. Good posts by Bladeracer, Tank, BLR243 and others on the subject so I'll expand a bit on my reasoning in case anyone is interested. Others might find it a boring wank,so the pictures are at the bottom of the post.

Reasons:

Chasing decent calibre and lower noise. The 45Auto has only 27 grains powder capacity, versus 33 for 44 special, 39 for 44 rem and 42 for 45 colt. Will handle lower powder loads than the big cases + better load density, ignition and potential accuracy with tiny loads of fast burners in the case ( AS-30N/350, Bullseye, WST, 700X, red dot). 3-5 grain loads in the bigger cases can move around. Trailboss is always an option but being able to choose another 7-8 options adds versatility. Also getting a custom barrel does away with the bore size variability of lever guns.

The .45 has a couple of the best expanding bullets at low velocity, even by pistol standards, .70 cal mushrooms under 800fps impact. Thats a sub 5 grain load. They kill pigs provided its not too far out and accepting its more like archery kill times. can also step up to 1050fps with tougher bullets like the XTP etc.

I looked at 300AAC but as others have outlined they still haven't fine tuned great expanding subsonic bullets for it yet, ones available on our shores anyway. The 450 bushmaster was a good option but its a larger case, needs about twice the powder of 45 auto.

The No.4 is rated for 50kpsi so supersonic hunting can step 185 grain bullets out past 1700fps for a decent farm thumper- like a light loaded 44 lever.

The configurations or general appearance most go for are:

1. Delisle carbine, which was the ww2 covert supressed gun actually in 45ACP. You can still get these done, obviously the supressor is a fake, so Im not overly interested.


2.L42A1 sniper rifle (the ones in pic are 223 btw), I quite like the general stock configs.


Also there are various synthetic and various sporter stocked versions. I'd consider an aftermarket stock but dont know much about options for a No.4? Any blokes who do feel free to chime in..

[bladeracer]

I like the idea, especially if it's a fairly straightforward conversion of a barrel and magazine.
Although the rifle is rated to far higher pressures than the .45ACP cartridge, you might find the brass case is the limit to how far you can push it.

[mickb]

Cheers mate you are correct on brass. 45ACP goes pretty high but should have mentioned I'll be buying starline 45 Super brass for it. Same dimensions as the ACP but rated to 48k+.

[marksman]

good onya mickb
we all have our own way, I cant wait to be hearing more about it

[mickb]

cheers mate, something different I guess. Btw if anyone wants a mint 357 rossi 92 lever going cheap with dies, rail, peep, scope and brass let me know

[Leadspitter]

I see that the bros in n zed use 45/70
Single shot bergaras to shute subsonic

200 odd grain pills to knock over dear

With suppressor bro , of course ,
Easy to load with trail boss cause of large case capacity

Just a thought

[mickb]

Yes most cases can run with Trailboss, even large bottlenecked cases. The idea of of this project is the smallest fattest case I can get. 45-70 is the other direction, about three times 45ACP capacity. Supersonic hunters will see it as just "filling up any case with trailboss" and calling it a day. But that may be twice the powder I am looking to use. In 45ACP you have all the other pistol/shotgun powders too, lot of options to test for accuracy.

[bladeracer]

Yes most cases can run with Trailboss, even large bottlenecked cases. The idea of of this project is the smallest fattest case I can get. 45-70 is the other direction, about three times 45ACP capacity. Supersonic hunters will see it as just "filling up any case with trailboss" and calling it a day. But that may be twice the powder I am looking to use. In 45ACP you have all the other pistol/shotgun powders too, lot of options to test for accuracy.

I would probably prefer to keep the original mag rather than have to change that as well. What about simply blowing out .303 to shoulder diameter and sticking a bullet in the end? I'd have to measure one but probably .375"-.400" caliber I'd guess. In a standard .303 you only need around 10gn of Trailboss for subsonic 150gn. So a bigger bullet, like 200gn or 220gn in a case shortened by about 10mm probably won't be using lots of powder.

Even if I did use a pistol cartridge, I'd probably still prefer to use Trailboss rather than a pistol powder if I could. I use AR2205, AP70N and TB in .38 Sp. and .44 Mag, but I only use the AR and AP if I'm pushing for velocity.

[mickb]

I would probably prefer to keep the original mag rather than have to change that as well.

In these kits the gun is adapted to feed regular 1911 magazines. Its a pretty handy system, especially if you already shoot a 45.

What about simply blowing out .303 to shoulder diameter and sticking a bullet in the end? I'd have to measure one but probably .375"-.400" caliber I'd guess. In a standard .303 you only need around 10gn of Trailboss for subsonic 150gn. So a bigger bullet, like 200gn or 220gn in a case shortened by about 10mm probably won't be using lots of powder.

Not really after a wildcat for this one. Main focus was gettting a 45ACP in any repeater and the enfield is available. If I was after longer cases I'd probably get a 45 colt or 450 bushmaster.

Even if I did use a pistol cartridge, I'd probably still prefer to use Trailboss rather than a pistol powder if I could. I use AR2205, AP70N and TB in .38 Sp. and .44 Mag, but I only use the AR and AP if I'm pushing for velocity.

Like you said you need more powders than TB for flexibility, it has a velocity ceiling. There are powders that can do more, especially in 45ACP. AS-30N for example gets more velocity with lighter loads, and is cleaner to boot.

eg
4.5 grains of Trailboss(max load) gets 761 fps with 230 cast.
4.0 grains AS-30N, 793fps with 230 grain cast.
4.9 grains of WST gets 848fps (with 230 grain jacketed HP!) equates factory ammo, bullets expanding to .70cal

etc

TB is a great powder for what it can do for rifles, but with pistols its just one of the boys.

[Tank]

Mick.
Can definitely understand the fascination with slow moving, heavy, hard hitting, quiet rounds.
I’m a big fan.
Mind you...if I was coughing $3k for a No4 45ACP it would need to a Delisle copy....integrated can and all.
Sounds like you’re expecting a fair bit from this venerable little pistol cartridge. I hope it all works out for you. Cool concept.
Pic below from last weekend.
Open sight and a little Kentucky windage and elevation later. Some pleasing results with a very subsonic 45-70 load.

[Tank]

Just one point in relation to Trailboss Mick.....how good is having such a great safety margin to play with?
Not much room left in the 45ACP with 4.5gr on board.....even if you did fill the case (without compression) it’d still be safe in your No4......
Just saying.

[mickb]

Nice tank!

Did you chrony that by any chance?

yes Id love the silenced version, but I'm back in the wrong country.

I'm not expecting too much, it is what it is, just another pistol case in a long gun. I was 50/50 to get a win 1892 or 1873 in a cowboy calibre which are 2k+ anyway. Most of my above waffle probably sounds arcane, buts is mostly standard pistol loading theory.

One difference I am eager to work out is the velocity difference going from pistol to the long barrel. 45 burns efficiently, it wont be big gains like you get with 357 carbine. Will depend on powder loads, some estimates are 100-150fps from cast and up to 250fps from jacketed. However in light loads it may not gain anything at all.

[mickb]

Just one point in relation to Trailboss Mick.....how good is having such a great safety margin to play with?
Not much room left in the 45ACP with 4.5gr on board.....even if you did fill the case (without compression) it’d still be safe in your No4......
Just saying.

All good mate, most factory loads in 45ACP which include +P ratings use 5 to 7.5 grain loads of regular pistol powders. They are designed to work safely in pistols, and can go a lot harder than TB. TB is really low performing in small pistol cartridges, in 45ACP it wont even reach factory speed. The enfeild can handle 2x or more pressure than a pistol for the record, some fellas loading 12+ grains of various powders in them. I'd expect to see the popularity of TB here as its mostly a rifle forum On a pistol forum you would see it being used for certain applications, but generally more talk on other powders.

[Tank]

Did you chrony that by any chance?

Nope.
But the book suggest around 800fps.

Anyone chasing velocities whilst using Trailboss is pretty much doing it wrong.
It’s a plinkers delight.
Though I have shot pigs with the above load.....

One thing I have noticed whilst chronying traliboss loads is very high consistencies.
Single figure standard variation all the time.

I don’t load for ACP (yet)....but have experience with .455 Webley (265gr @ 630fps)....though not through a carbine.

Let us know how you get on.

It’s a pity we can’t easily get hold of the awesome array of PCC’s that are now so popular in the states....there’s always been an argument for them.....mostly the fun factor!

[mickb]

Did you chrony that by any chance?

Nope.
But the book suggest around 800fps.
Anyone chasing velocities whilst using Trailboss is pretty much doing it wrong.
It’s a plinkers delight.
Though I have shot pigs with the above load.....

One thing I have noticed whilst chronying traliboss loads is very high consistencies.
Single figure standard variation all the time.
I don’t load for ACP (yet)....but have experience with .455 Webley (265gr @ 630fps)....though not through a carbine.

Let us know how you get on.

It’s a pity we can’t easily get hold of the awesome array of PCC’s that are now so popular in the states....there’s always been an argument for them.....mostly the fun factor!

nice tank how does it go against pigs? Im assuming straight through, decent killer thanks to the bullet dia?

trailboss is a good cheap plinker yep, buts that good thing about the small pistol cases, lots of powders are. AS-30N, AP350, AP450 are all even cheaper than TB in this gun. And if 4.5 grains trailboss gets me an ultra slow lead slug, yet 4.5 grains of WST pushes an expanding jacketed bullet ..... I'll obviously take the WST .

Btw what are PCC's. I googled it and assume its not pensioner concession cards.

[Tank]

Yeah Mick.....no lack of penetration.
Skin looked like you’d taken to it with a leather hole punch. Bone like you’d taken to it with a drill. Chest shots resulted in them behaving like they were drunk and generally down within 15-25 yards. Best results when taking shoulders out.
Full length pass through at 40 odd yards end on was impressive too.
I’ll stick to running with 32.5gr of 2207 with the 500’s though. These turn up just shy of 1500fps and are a lot more emphatic.
Mind you....your ACP would be a little lighter for recoil!

[Tank]

Ha! PCC’s....love it! Soon enough....
Pistol Caliber Carbine....lol!

[mickb]

Yeah Mick.....no lack of penetration.
Skin looked like you’d taken to it with a leather hole punch. Bone like you’d taken to it with a drill. Chest shots resulted in them behaving like they were drunk and generally down within 15-25 yards. Best results when taking shoulders out.
Full length pass through at 40 odd yards end on was impressive too.
I’ll stick to running with 32.5gr of 2207 with the 500’s though. These turn up just shy of 1500fps and are a lot more emphatic.
Mind you....your ACP would be a little lighter for recoil!

stories of cast bullets killing

[mickb]

Looking to get a custom one done from the ground up.

[8x57]

Does anyone know who is selling these ?

[mickb]

One option is Claremont guns WA, they have a facebook page.
Action closeup, its using the special interest arms kit from the USA. Apparently prefers hardball(FMJ) ammo.

$2600-3000 last time I enquired depending on options.

What I am looking at is a custom job by either Rolf Blacknick in Vic or Rod Woods in NZ on action of choice. They follow the authentic ww2 delisle bolt setup which looks nicer in my opinion and feeds everything.Set the barrel back into the action, shorten bolt and use slightly modified 1911 mags, no chunky adaptor housing needed.

[8x57]

One option is Claremont guns WA, they have a facebook page.
Action closeup, its using the special interest arms kit from the USA. Apparently prefers hardball(FMJ) ammo.

$2600-3000 last time I enquired depending on options.

What I am looking at is a custom job by either Rolf Blacknick in Vic or Rod Woods in NZ on action of choice. They follow the authentic ww2 delisle bolt setup which looks nicer in my opinion and feeds everything.Set the barrel back into the action, shorten bolt and use slightly modified 1911 mags, no chunky adaptor housing needed.

Thanks Mick