Howa Bravo Long Range Comments/Query's

[thesoundman000]

Hi all, Newbie here; to the forum and to centerfire/longer range shooting. I've grown up shooting the .22lr a little, used to stretch it out near 200m and ping away at cans and things for fun. Only recently licensed and just received delivery of my rifle. I was chasing something to really push my limits with regards to accuracy at ranges out to 1000m or so (but at a bit of a budget, $2k ish)...

Its the Howa Bravo package topped with MDT rail/rings and a Vortex Diamondback Tactical 6-24x50. It's the long range version so 26in varmint barrel and I've thrown a brake on the end of it. It's currently missing the entire accessory pack thanks to a mix up from the supplier but regardless I've had it out on a Harris bipod to give it a bit of a burl.

I'm reloading my own ammo (new to this also) using the below components selected using the criteria of "whats the cheapest you've got?". It's costing me 58c a shot all costs included.
- ADI once fired's
- CCI Large Rifle Primers
- AR2208 powder (Loaded light)
- Speer 125gr TNT

Not even 100 rounds in and I'm impressed! 3 round groups are averaging a hair over an inch at 200m and they're gradually improving. The last for the day was happily under the inch. Wound out to 600m with a serious crosswind and back several times and the zero hadn't shifted.

Given the 1moa guarantee on match ammunition, these budget rounds I've put together are ridiculously good. By my math I'm approaching 0.5moa and I'm wiggling all over the place (the for-end polymer isn't even attached to the chassis thanks to those missing screws) so the rifles got to be shooting better than that. I'm shocked to say the least at the accuracy of the combination.

Is it unreasonable to expect significant improvements on this with variations in powder and pills? My research tends to indicate 0.5moa is considered pretty straight shooting, is that a valid benchmark? How much is my experience going to change as the barrel wears in? I figure 100 rounds is probably approaching what it'll be like for its useable life but is it likely to worsen/improve over the near future?

Appreciate any comments, I've found this forum rather helpful as I've been chasing around what components to get etc for this build.

[TassieTiger]

Benchmarks in long(er) range shooting are difficult to nail down...I think a better question might be - what is a good benchmark for my equipment/skill...
Anything under 1 moa used to be difficult to consistently achieve but modern manufacturing has allowed that mark to generally be surpassed.

Based on the info you’ve provided - I’d say consistent.5 Moa from a $2k set up is pretty bloody good.
Unbeknown to me, My sauer recently backed out action screws allowing stock to move all over the shop. It shot a 10mm group like that. I tightened screws with Allen key and then I couldn’t get it to shoot better than 15mm @ 100m - it’s a funny game.

[Wm.Traynor]

If you are going to compete at 1000 yds., you need a certain muzzle velocity. Most competitors have 30" barrels but some people on this forum have done well in that respect, with that length of barrel. Can't hurt to buy 100 bullets and try them out. Those Speers are too light. The people at your full bore range can give you advice too.

Perhaps I should explain. You need about 2900 ft/sec muzzle velocity in a 308 with 155 gn pills. This will give you acceptable elevation/vertical dispersion at 1000 yds. If the wind changes, good elevation will help keep you in the bull (long story).

ozfclass.com might interest you too. Good luck mate

[SCJ429]

With the projectiles you are using I am guessing it is a 30 cal, a 308? The Speer TNT are a fantastic varmint or fox bullet and the design including the flat base is great for accuracy and should perform well out to 300 metres. For the price you probably cannot buy a more accurate projectile for short range shooting. Would you do well with them at 500 to 1000, the answer is no.

The best bullets for you at those ranges are made by Berger, something like a 168 grain hybrid. Also Hornady make a 168 grain ZMax, these are hard to get now but shoot very well for a budget bullet.

If you are pushing the velocity limits of a 308 you can use a CCI BR2 primers or CCI 250 magnum primers, they have a thicker cup and can handle a little more pressure.

Your ADI brass is fine, it can use a little prep like cleaning up the inside of the flash hole, neck turning and weight sorting.

Good luck with it, a start shooting five shot groups.

[in2anity]

Just curious, how are you calculating 58c/shot? What's your cost breakdown?

[SCJ429]

I know you are talking to the soundman but I price it as 27c per projectile, 8c a primer and about 25c for powder. 60c?

[in2anity]

I know you are talking to the soundman but I price it as 27c per projectile, 8c a primer and about 25c for powder. 60c?

Ok, so $50/500g of AR2208, loaded at 38gr - there's your 25c I suppose. 38gr of AR2208 sure is one very light load... is that reasonable?

Different story for AR2207 though - exactly 38gr of AR2207 is indeed what I've been shooting under the TNTs (through my 308). Which leads me on to my next observation; for partial cases under a light pill, surely a faster powder (like AR2207) would be far more appropriate?

[Cooper]

I know you are talking to the soundman but I price it as 27c per projectile, 8c a primer and about 25c for powder. 60c?

Ok, so $50/500g of AR2208, loaded at 38gr - there's your 25c I suppose. 38gr of AR2208 sure is one very light load... is that reasonable?

Different story for AR2207 though - exactly 38gr of AR2207 is indeed what I've been shooting under the TNTs (through my 308). Which leads me on to my next observation; for partial cases under a light pill, surely a faster powder (like AR2207) would be far more appropriate?

When I first thought about the math on the 58 cent load. I thought it might be low. Like 10 cents low. Depends buying 2208 in 4kg might be closer to $45 per 500gram? Maybe the primers were on special at like 6 cents each. Still thinking start charge for 2208 would be over 40grains. Dunno?

[sungazer]

Easy to spend that much for a good bullet. if your going to push it long range then more than 40grn of 2208 is needed about 45grn of 2206H.

[marksman]

you guys are thinking to much into it
1 shot one deer $45 a kilo freezers full
who cares how much it cost to load

sorry guys your talking about shooting paper, zero a kilo then carry on

[marksman]

Easy to spend that much for a good bullet. if your going to push it long range then more than 40grn of 2208 is needed about 45grn of 2206H.

l stuff a bit more than that in my 308's speed kills

[in2anity]

you guys are thinking to much into it
1 shot one deer $45 a kilo freezers full
who cares how much it cost to load

sorry guys your talking about shooting paper, zero a kilo then carry on

I was just going to say - I'm not trying to turn this into a pissing contest - kudos to OP for aiming for economy. I also aim for economy myself. But out of the 308, 70c/piece is about the best I can do, and that's over AR2207.

That TNT bullet is indeed a darned good bullet - certainly capable of consistent 1" groups at 100m out of the right barrel, even under blustery conditions. However when there's a blustery crosswind, they do open up a bit more at 300m. With the TNT load, I'm happy with a 4" group at 300m (under the usual 15-20kmh winds you see at ANZAC).

In contrast, heavier boat tail full-power loads can go into 2" at 300m (if I'm doing my part and keep a close eye on the flags). Noticeably more expensive that load of course...

[SCJ429]

Sorry I was working on four kilos of powder for $345. There is 61,729 grains of powder, which is 0.00558895 cents per grain. Take a 45 grain load it is 0.25 cents per load. I could have got all that completely wrong of course.

[sungazer]

Easy to spend that much for a good bullet. if your going to push it long range then more than 40grn of 2208 is needed about 45grn of 2206H.

l stuff a bit more than that in my 308's speed kills

We need to keep to safe loads when talking about them and making suggestions or comments.

[SCJ429]

I have a friend with a heavy barrelled Howa and even with the poor quality barrel that Howa provides he can shoot in the 0.5s with TNT. Very forgiving bullet.

[in2anity]

I have a friend with a heavy barrelled Howa and even with the poor quality barrel that Howa provides he can shoot in the 0.5s with TNT. Very forgiving bullet.

No exaggeration, with the TNT I shot a 5-shot 1-moa 100m group under a 35-50kmh fluctuating 5-7 oclock tail wind (the worst kind) just the other day - meanwhile the 204, blackout and 223 all comparatively went to hell that day. Admittedly it was more the barrel than anything (tikka medium contour) - but it shows how capable the bullet is.

[thesoundman000]

Right thats a lot of responses, thanks heaps! Sorry if I miss anyone.

I had forgotten to mention it was a .308, not sure how I forgot but there you go.

@TassieTiger
It's kept consistent in the ballpark of .5 over another day so I'm more than chuffed. I've not actually torqued mine quite to the consistency I'm after as I'll have to redo it in a week or so when the kit arrives, It'll be interesting to see if that changes anything.

@Wm.Traynor
I didn't clarify that sorry, I wasn't planning on using that load out at range I'm just getting used to the calibre/rifle/wind(!) etc before I stretch it out a bit. I figured a budget load flying a bit slower (for the bullet weight) makes for some good practice at least initially. Post Christmas I'm hoping to pick up a selection of heavier pills for the longer stretches.

@SCJ429
Correct on the calibre there. Glad to hear they're considered reasonable at those ranges, they're definitely performing. Noted with regards primers, that'll be something to try out when I start stretching it out.

@in2anity, @SCJ429, @Cooper
5.5c a primer (1000 pack), 25.5c for powder, 27c a projectile. Powder has been ballpark $45 for 500gm.
They're loaded to roughly 42gn which fills the case all but perfectly for my seating depth. There's maybe 1mm of clearance. I wouldn't call it a light load, it's definitely not pushing any limits but its got more grunt than the factory ammo I purchased.

@in2anity
A faster powder would definitely be better, was just working with what I had unfortunately. I picked up 4kg of AR2206H for the next lot around so we'll see how that changes things.

@marksman
It's more like pig territory here In that respect it's performing admirably.

@in2anity
We've had a fair breeze going across the field here, I was guessing 25kph ish at times which my calculator seemed to agree with. I could mostly keep it on an a5 (6" x 9") plate at 450m but it was a struggle. I had another plate out at 600m and there was a bit much luck involved with that one, I was managing 1/5 hits at best. No wind and things are simple, I've got a while to go with calling wind yet.

[in2anity]

5.5c a primer (1000 pack), 25.5c for powder, 27c a projectile. Powder has been ballpark $45 for 500gm.
They're loaded to roughly 42gn which fills the case all but perfectly for my seating depth. There's maybe 1mm of clearance. I wouldn't call it a light load, it's definitely not pushing any limits but its got more grunt than the factory ammo I purchased.

Well there you go mate, I stand corrected - well done. IMO you're at the pinnacle of the economy/accuracy combo for loading 308 in AUS. If AR2208 is working for you, I'd just stick with that - I doubt you'll get much accuracy improvement from AR2207. Worth an investigation nonetheless. I'd be chronoing your loads and comparing the SD against AR2207 i(f you want to split hairs).

We've had a fair breeze going across the field here, I was guessing 25kph ish at times which my calculator seemed to agree with. I could mostly keep it on an a5 (6" x 9") plate at 450m but it was a struggle. I had another plate out at 600m and there was a bit much luck involved with that one, I was managing 1/5 hits at best. No wind and things are simple, I've got a while to go with calling wind yet.

That sounds about right mate. For a factory Howa barrel you're doing bloody well I reckon

[Sergeant Hartman]

I forgot long ago what my bullet cost... after i paid for my 2nd press and the type s dies. Atleast the 4kg tubs make the cost reasonable... and keep an eye out on websites for good deals. But seeing now pouring 85+ grain of bang powder and projectiles over $1.... yeah gun fun.

Saying that cheapest is trailboss in a 223 pushing those hornady tap for 22c... almost as cheap as my 22lr... but i was taking to someone and he's spending $32/50 on the 22lr.... crazy

[in2anity]

I forgot long ago what my bullet cost... after i paid for my 2nd press and the type s dies. Atleast the 4kg tubs make the cost reasonable... and keep an eye out on websites for good deals. But seeing now pouring 85+ grain of bang powder and projectiles over $1.... yeah gun fun.

Saying that cheapest is trailboss in a 223 pushing those hornady tap for 22c... almost as cheap as my 22lr... but i was taking to someone and he's spending $32/50 on the 22lr.... crazy

I've got a 223 build on the boil that is specifically designed to shoot budget handloads expectionally well. I hate wasting money on fancy consumables. I'll do a big post once it's all complete but it'll (hopefully) have a Krieger barrel.

And I'm targetting those Hornady TAP pills. What sort of accuracy do you think they are capable of?

[thesoundman000]

Well there you go mate, I stand corrected - well done. IMO you're at the pinnacle of the economy/accuracy combo for loading 308 in AUS. If AR2208 is working for you, I'd just stick with that - I doubt you'll get much accuracy improvement from AR2207. Worth an investigation nonetheless. I'd be chronoing your loads and comparing the SD against AR2207 i(f you want to split hairs).

My only gripe with the 08 is the noise, it sure slams the eardrums. I forgot my ear pro for one round and I'll never be repeating that mistake again, its been a few days and the ringing hasn't stopped (I've got the rifle braked and some past ear injuries). I'm hoping the faster powder might improve that aspect a little.

I don't yet have a chrono, its definitely on my list to get asap though because I keep running into situations where it would help.

That sounds about right mate. For a factory Howa barrel you're doing bloody well I reckon

Thanks mate, for a first rifle this Howa will keep me happy a while yet

[thesoundman000]

I forgot long ago what my bullet cost... after i paid for my 2nd press and the type s dies. Atleast the 4kg tubs make the cost reasonable... and keep an eye out on websites for good deals. But seeing now pouring 85+ grain of bang powder and projectiles over $1.... yeah gun fun.

Saying that cheapest is trailboss in a 223 pushing those hornady tap for 22c... almost as cheap as my 22lr... but i was taking to someone and he's spending $32/50 on the 22lr.... crazy

This bug will bite me one day, holding back the reins for the time being

[marksman]

Easy to spend that much for a good bullet. if your going to push it long range then more than 40grn of 2208 is needed about 45grn of 2206H.

l stuff a bit more than that in my 308's speed kills

We need to keep to safe loads when talking about them and making suggestions or comments.

my loads are safe
for my rifles

[TassieTiger]

Don’t do drugs, stay in school...

[SCJ429]

If you move the bullet weight up to around 170 grains you won't do better than 2208. If you are worried about the noise you can take the break off.

[thesoundman000]

If you move the bullet weight up to around 170 grains you won't do better than 2208. If you are worried about the noise you can take the break off.

Yeah I've realised that but it's a trade-off I won't be able to avoid. For the lighter loads I might as well keep things pleasant. The brake will stay on I think, its quite nice to shoot as is recoil wise and I'm enjoying that.

[SCJ429]

I am sensitive to noise, strange because I am deaf. I double up my hearing protection with squashy ear plugs and put my ear muffs over that.