Do off the shelf rifles really differ that much?

[marksman]

I really dont see a problem with someone wanting to shoot a 243 at 600, really l assume he will be shooting gongs ect.. and not comp
but what if he did its what he wants to do

[sungazer]

I have a Sako 85 243 and I have shot it at 600yrds on electronic targets and it performed very well. I was shooting the 90grn Berger Target bullets the rifle from memory is a 1:10 twist. It performed very well and certainly can shoot less than 1 MOA. I also shoot the 100 grn Sierra Pro Hunter and 100 grn Gameking the 1:10 stabilizes both of these without fuss.

The question do "off the Shelf rifles really differ that much" my answer would probably be "No they dont". Sure like anything there are the outliers in both good and bad and the prices can vary dramatically.

[SCJ429]

That 90 grain flat based Berger is hard to beat at 300 and is a solid performer at 500. They are a bit easier to get over the 105 VLD.

[GQshayne]

I have a Sako 85 243 and I have shot it at 600yrds on electronic targets and it performed very well. I was shooting the 90grn Berger Target bullets the rifle from memory is a 1:10 twist. It performed very well and certainly can shoot less than 1 MOA. I also shoot the 100 grn Sierra Pro Hunter and 100 grn Gameking the 1:10 stabilizes both of these without fuss.

The question do "off the Shelf rifles really differ that much" my answer would probably be "No they dont". Sure like anything there are the outliers in both good and bad and the prices can vary dramatically.

I agree here. I think many people spend most of their time splitting hairs over the rifle, when the choice of scope is probably the more important decision.

[in2anity]

While glass is important, I believe the inherent accuracy of the rifle to be more-so. If you shoot smallbore or fullbore, you will learn a lot of good shooting comes from technique and muscle memory. Sure magnification is nice for cross-armed shooting, but quality of glass easily trumps magnification in my books.

[Shooter243]

Hi All, thanks for pitching in.

Lets get one thing straight first.... What do you mean all my hours of call of duty dont count?!?!

Guys i appreciate that i cant start off shooting at 600m. Wouldnt know where I would do this regularly anyway most ranges are up 200m.

To get into it I'm planning on shooting about once a month up 200m and on the rare occasion go to the 600m range. I'm hoping while I'm in the sport ill figure out some venues to shoot a longer distances and by that time I should have a decent amount of rounds under my belt. Also I have shot a .243 before so im not going completely blind.

Currently I'm working under the impression that I may not get that much more shots out of .22 due to barrel heating, i.e. I'll still need to pace myself so in an hour i wont get that many more rounds down range. Will need you guys to advise on the whole barrel heating thing and if its as big a factor as im making it out to be.

The main thing that put me off the .22 however was my experience shooting .22 pistols... it was really underwhelming. So I'd have to really be sure i'll get a whole lot more 'learning' done on a .22 before making that choice. I'm aware however that .243 are barrel burner's as SCJ429 has mentioned and thats another plus for the .22

Regarding scopes, my info regarding 15x comes from youtube vids... not sure how valid the info is. I have seen what targets look like at 500 and 1000 at that mag and it it pretty tiny but you can still see it. Good luck seeing your groups however without going for a long walk. So I have been considering the Leupold VX5. again most of my shooting will be up to 200m.

SCJ429 kinda disappointed to hear that 1:10 wont shoot 100+ grain... part of my thinking was that I had that option for the long range shots

Regarding accuracy, i'd like to be confident of putting sub moa groups at 200 and being confident I can hit 600m within the first couple of shots. preferably one. latter goal obviously much harder than former.

Regarding actual question, seems like no one really disagrees that most off the shelf rifles differ to much regarding accuracy, however there is some support for the idea that more expensive may equal more reliable...? I considered lithgow but am worried that there might be more (not sure by how much) of a chance i get a rifle that slipped through the tolerances... a lot of people say its luck of the draw so im basically paying to skew the odds.

[duncan61]

.243 is not a barrel burner.It is a very well balanced chamber.I purchased a HOWA .243 for roo culling with a 22 inch barrel in steel for $700 and it has performed faultlessly in the 15 years I have owned it.I last shot the rifle at 300 yards on a range and it still groups well with 80gn PSP Remington that will do pigs and head shot roos out to 200 metres.I would like to come in the field with some of the people who shoot out to 500 metres.how do you find what you have shot???

[SCJ429]

The 243 is an overbore cartridge and can be made worse shooting VLDs fairly fast. My last barrel went south after 1000 rounds, I set the barrel back and shot a further 1500 out of it but it never shot as wel as it did initially.

For the OP, if the 243 shooting 90 grain pills is not what you want, the choices are a 260 shooting 140 or a 223 shooting 80s will get you some long range plinking. My 223 has shot over 4000 rounds and still shoots 80 grain Bergers in the high 0.2s.

[PaddyT]

if you dont want to buy a 22 and you live in Sydney-once youve got your licence go and hire a 22 at St Marys and practice with that- you can also hire at Silverdale (i think) before you move onto your bigger , more expensive calibre. If im having a practice shoot then the 22 always comes along- i can put 2-300 rounds through that while im waiting for my centerfires to cool down. $8 for 50 rounds of CCI Std is a pretty cheap practicing tool-cheaper if you buy in bulk.

[Sergeant Hartman]

There is a cz452 on ssaagunsales website... probably one of the best thing you can do.

It is underwhelming... but it gets you practice, and practice makes perfect. You can easily shoot 200 rounds per sitting of the 22lr without any sore shoulders. It will cost you 20-30 bucks compared to 100+ for the 243 ammo. The 22lr barrel will easily last 10,000-100,000 rounds while the 243 will start to go south after 1500-2000 rounds.

Also i am surprised no one has mentioned 6.5 creedmoor as a lot better long range calibre.

[bigrich]

There is a cz452 on ssaagunsales website... probably one of the best thing you can do.

It is underwhelming... but it gets you practice, and practice makes perfect. You can easily shoot 200 rounds per sitting of the 22lr without any sore shoulders. It will cost you 20-30 bucks compared to 100+ for the 243 ammo. The 22lr barrel will easily last 10,000-100,000 rounds while the 243 will start to go south after 1500-2000 rounds.

Also i am surprised no one has mentioned 6.5 creedmoor as a lot better long range calibre.

i agree on a cz 452 as a good practice rifle that won't break the bank . doing feild rifle with the 22 can be a lot of fun and it's cheap to do .

shooter243 , you stated in your post that your new to the sport , and not being aware of your level of experience and capabilities , such as ability to handle recoil , etc , i recommended a decent qaulity 223 with the fast twist barrel . the tikka t3 can be amazingly accurate ,will last well , and won't break the bank to buy or shoot . getting into the larger calibers could get expensive for you if your not reloading . as ziad has said, the 6.5 CM is a known distance shooter , but will be more expensive and with more recoil than the 223. i'm not judging, or trying to put you down , just trying to offer some genuine advice. if the 243, or 6.5CM is what you want then go for it . it sounds like you've done your research , i'm sure you'll do well

[TassieTiger]

Very Good advice above...real world, usable advice.
I enjoy stuffing around with .22’s - especially whilst waiting for the larger rifles to cool down - they can bea lot of fun. I still recall the step up from .22 to my first ever shot of a 223...and I was hooked. There’s a big jump.

[Shooter243]

Haha, clearly I've ruffled some feathers.

I'm obviously not going to buy a rifle and head out to 600m range for my first shot. I'll mostly be shooting at 200m but I'd like something that can reach out to 600m at least. I say 600m because that's longest range I've got access to at this point. I would like to eventually work my way up to 1000ms but thats a distant future kind of plan that I was hoping wouldnt require another rifle. Apparently not, at least not with .243 with a 1:10 twist.

I have considered .22 based on price of the rounds, but I cant shake how lacking the experinece was when I shot a .22 pistol. Try shooting event. I enjoyed the .243 I shot and it was pretty manageable despite having no real instruction or idea what I was doing. Hence, feeling comfortable jumping straight to a .243.

Still on the .22. Maybe someone can shed light on this thought. Will still have to worry about the barrel heating up when shooting a .22. If so in an hour of shooting, for example, how many more .22 rounds would i fire really, compared to .243 if im still pacing myself to avoid over heating the barrel? Again, asking this question as a novice with no experience. Anyway if the difference isnt that big I may stay with the .243.

Final issues with a .22 is im not sure how it will go for hunting. I'm under impression I'd likely be shooting at bores and roos. Will .22 cut it?

Regarding scopes, im getting mixed messages about need for magnification, however i am consider a leupod VX5. Is there a scope of similar price that has low end like 3 or 4 that reaches into early 20s that someone would recommend, i.e. still pretty clear?

Regarding actual question, there seems to be some consensus that more money equals less likely to get a dud that slipped through quality control. Also, seems like most rifle will shoot sub moa and arent objectively different regarding design features.

[SCJ429]

I am betting that on a hot summer day if you shot 1000 rounds through your 22LR as fast as you could reload your magizene, it still would not get too hot to shoot.

A 243 with a varmint barrel is going to be too hot to shoot in under 10 rounds shot in succession.

[TassieTiger]

I’ve tried to heat one of my .22 by cycling magazines - don’t think it can be done.
My lightweight 30-06 shooting 168’s is too hot to touch after 5 shots on a cold day.

A Leo VX5 is a big $ commitment straight up - but a great scope. A vx3 6-20 would cost half of a 5 and performance would be close to equitable for a new shooter.

[Sergeant Hartman]

Maybe if you read my post you almost might see the answer. Anyway

With a thin 22lr barrel my wife speed shoot 50+ round without the barrel getting warm to touch in about 25min. With a thicker barrel even more.

On a 308 or 223 probably go though 30 round and the barrel is gelling very warm even with pacing in the 25min. I don't have a 243... but a 6.5 creedmoor which be similar about 1 every 1 or 2 minutes and probably after 15/20 that's about it.

Regards to scope look at atleast 25x scope for your 200-600m. But honestly nothing like talking to people actually doing it and trying their equipment. Not many rifles come in 1.8 twist or faster and the slower twists are more geared towards 243 as a hunting/varmint round upto 300m or less.

Lastly you havent ruffled anyone's feathers.... its probably more like what one of my friend thinks when he gives me a good suggestion and i don't listen to him... make my mistake and then come back to tell him... should have listened to ya mate

[GQshayne]

I have used my 15 power Meopta at 100m. If I was target shooting it would be pretty good I reckon. But at 600m, I don't think so. Target shooting, not hunting, which is very different. Hunting I would be on 4 power.

As for the rifle, I had a thought today about it. This is only a suggestion, and you may not be interested. I would consider a Howa barrelled action, mated to a Oryx or similar chassis. Chassis is $650, and barrelled action is about the same. It would be a really good long range set-up, in comparison to other off the shelf rifles at the same price point. And for a scope, how about a Meopta Optika 4.5-27 x 50? That would be a good long range rifle at a modest price. My view anyway. But not something I would want to carry far in the field.

[in2anity]

Mate I'll play devil's advocate; I bet you'll be able to get on paper at 600m with a half decent 243 shooting ammo it likes, even with a mediocre scope, no worries - in fact, I bet yu do it on the first day! Go for it I say! Just test some different ammo at a closer distance beforehand to find out what she likes and to get your zero. Cross-armed shooting with a good long-range gun from a steady rest really does make things easy. Just take your time, steady your heart, and after exhaling, pull the trigger at the right time Here's a guide to correct trigger control:

(credit to on_one_wheel for this one; dunno where he got it :P )

trigger.png (81.91 KiB) Viewed 4181 times

Shoot a ram-sized target from standing offhand at 500m with a crosswind; now that's when things start to get a little trickier... that truly takes practice.

But i do agree, you will never regret buying a quality 22lr. For a variety of reasons, I guarantee you will shoot it more than anything else...

[in2anity]

+1 for Leupold scopes. Have a look at the VX-3i 6.5-20x40 EFR CDS. Occasionally you can get em for less than a grand.

[Bill]

Jump in the deep end and buy one of these ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-fcTUmQKXo

[Faedy]

I run leupold scopes on all my centrefires.
All from the vx-3 range.
My favorite is the vx-3i 8.5-25x50 - it is the minimum Id want for 600m - 1000m.
Ive currently got it on my .223, but its about to get moved to my 300winmag.
As for your requirement, Id get a .308 for the long work you want, and a .22 for fun and discipline training

[Shooter243]

So I had a blond momement and didn't realise mine and other new posts were going onto the next page....

Thanks again for your input. I'll have to hit the range and try out these .22lr and see if I'll actually enjoy it. Hard to argue with how cheap and how much practice I'll get out of .22lr versus a centerfire. That said it's also important that I enjoy it. The recoil of the .243 didn't bother me.

Regarding scopes, I'm under the impression that cheap glass doesn't do well at high magnification, I.e. 15x plus. Because you start to zoom in on the imperfections that blur the image. If anyone can refute this it would be appreciate it.

Also do you need to actually look at something that's far away to tell how good the glass is?

Finally regarding glass. More expensive hopefully = more accurate tracking which is important for indexing the shots. Hence the willingness to spend a little. I'm a believer of buy once cry once. Another reason I don't want to get a .22 only to buy a larger cal later.

Also not so concerned with shooting out 1000m at this point.

[SCJ429]

It appears to me that you can get a 3-9x scope for $60 and the image is quite acceptable. If you get a cheap scope in the 25x to 30x range the image gets a bit cloudy or milky.. It is harder to use in mirage or low light. That is not to say you cannot see well enough to make a shot at those ranges.

I have not used these scope enough to comment on the reliability of their tracking. If something was going to fail on these scopes, I am betting that this is were it would occur.

Poor quality glass may look OK at an object 50 metres away, try and look at stuff at long range if you can.

[Wm.Traynor]

The subject of scopes is such a vexed question. Jackie Schmidtt, a Benchrest Hall of Fame member, called "tracking", a scopes weakest link. Instead of raising the subject of my experience with a US brand how about you buy two fairly cheap scopes (Hawke is one that has been mentioned here) and when the one in use stuffs up, send it back and install the spare. I heard of a bloke who does that with two Marches. If you frighten easily, don't look up their prices.

I might have mis-spelled Jackie's name.

[GQshayne]

I have a Japanese made Tasco World Class in 2-8. It is on my .22lr. On my .243 I have a 1-6 Swarovski.

I was sighting in the .22 and was having trouble seeing the holes in the target (black bull) on 8 power. So I grabbed the 10 power binoculars. No good either. I did not want to wait for the range to clear, so I grabbed the .243 to have a look through the 6 power Swaro. The holes were very clear and easily seen. Surprised me how much difference there was at close range. Big difference.

[Shootermick]

Buy whatever you want, personal preference wins out every time. But.. make sure you have at least one 22, if you’re like me and a lot of others you may just use it way more then you might think. Then just buy something else, and another something else, and so on. Safes full? Buy another one of the too.

[sungazer]

You just ont get sick of shooting 22s . it could be a top end Anschutz that you can shoot tiny targets with or a pump or a lever that you can plink at cans and stuff. Its an easy way to spend a few hours in the sun, not making too much noise, not beating yourself up or costing you a lot.

[gordicans]

I'm confused by your first paragraph ie

"Im looking to purchase a rifle for the first time and get into the sport. Not likely to have the oportunity to hunt often so I'm gearing towards something that'll easily reach out to 600 and has potential to hit out to 1000m."

Why does not having the opportunity to hunt often makes you want something that will easily reach out to 600 - 1000m's? Is it because you won't be hunting much so you can use it at the range? Or is it because you won't be hunting much so you'll need to take advantage of every opportunity and shoot animals at long distance? If it's the latter forget it, it's nonsense. Do you have any idea what a target looks like at 1000 meters through a scope? If you're new to the sport get a 22 and learn to reach out to 100 meters...1000 meters is total fantasy land if you are new to the sport. Critters need to be respected. Apologies if you are referring to targets

[marksman]

Jump in the deep end and buy one of these ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-fcTUmQKXo

this is very impressive for any factory rifle shooting factory ammo

it also shows how versatile the 6.5x55 swede is
when they were shooting at 1000 l was impressed with the statement that the 6.5x55 would be starting at 20% less power than the match grade 308 ammo they had used but at 1000 would have 20% more impact than the match grade 308 ammo,
l could have corrected the first guy to shoot in his setup on the rifle as well as his bi-pod use but he was hitting steel at 1000 the way he was doing it
obviously not competition record winners but they are not trying to be

thanks for putting this one up Bill

and they aren't bad for tea baggers eh Bill

[Stix]

this is very impressive for any factory rifle shooting factory ammo

it also shows how versatile the 6.5x55 swede is
when they were shooting at 1000 l was impressed with the statement that the 6.5x55 would be starting at 20% less power than the match grade 308 ammo they had used but at 1000 would have 20% more impact than the match grade 308 ammo,
l could have corrected the first guy to shoot in his setup on the rifle as well as his bi-pod use but he was hitting steel at 1000 the way he was doing it
obviously not competition record winners but they are not trying to be

thanks for putting this one up Bill

and they aren't bad for tea baggers eh Bill

Correct him ho w marksman...?