Do off the shelf rifles really differ that much?

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Re: Do off the shelf rifles really differ that much?

Post by in2anity » 30 Oct 2019, 7:28 pm

+1 for Leupold scopes. Have a look at the VX-3i 6.5-20x40 EFR CDS. Occasionally you can get em for less than a grand.
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Re: Do off the shelf rifles really differ that much?

Post by Bill » 04 Nov 2019, 9:04 pm

Jump in the deep end and buy one of these ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-fcTUmQKXo
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Re: Do off the shelf rifles really differ that much?

Post by Faedy » 04 Nov 2019, 11:57 pm

I run leupold scopes on all my centrefires.
All from the vx-3 range.
My favorite is the vx-3i 8.5-25x50 - it is the minimum Id want for 600m - 1000m.
Ive currently got it on my .223, but its about to get moved to my 300winmag.
As for your requirement, Id get a .308 for the long work you want, and a .22 for fun and discipline training
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Re: Do off the shelf rifles really differ that much?

Post by Shooter243 » 11 Nov 2019, 3:56 pm

So I had a blond momement and didn't realise mine and other new posts were going onto the next page....

Thanks again for your input. I'll have to hit the range and try out these .22lr and see if I'll actually enjoy it. Hard to argue with how cheap and how much practice I'll get out of .22lr versus a centerfire. That said it's also important that I enjoy it. The recoil of the .243 didn't bother me.

Regarding scopes, I'm under the impression that cheap glass doesn't do well at high magnification, I.e. 15x plus. Because you start to zoom in on the imperfections that blur the image. If anyone can refute this it would be appreciate it.

Also do you need to actually look at something that's far away to tell how good the glass is?

Finally regarding glass. More expensive hopefully = more accurate tracking which is important for indexing the shots. Hence the willingness to spend a little. I'm a believer of buy once cry once. Another reason I don't want to get a .22 only to buy a larger cal later.

Also not so concerned with shooting out 1000m at this point.
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Re: Do off the shelf rifles really differ that much?

Post by SCJ429 » 11 Nov 2019, 7:04 pm

It appears to me that you can get a 3-9x scope for $60 and the image is quite acceptable. If you get a cheap scope in the 25x to 30x range the image gets a bit cloudy or milky.. It is harder to use in mirage or low light. That is not to say you cannot see well enough to make a shot at those ranges.

I have not used these scope enough to comment on the reliability of their tracking. If something was going to fail on these scopes, I am betting that this is were it would occur.

Poor quality glass may look OK at an object 50 metres away, try and look at stuff at long range if you can.
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Re: Do off the shelf rifles really differ that much?

Post by Wm.Traynor » 11 Nov 2019, 7:24 pm

The subject of scopes is such a vexed question. Jackie Schmidtt, a Benchrest Hall of Fame member, called "tracking", a scopes weakest link. Instead of raising the subject of my experience with a US brand :crazy: how about you buy two fairly cheap scopes (Hawke is one that has been mentioned here) and when the one in use stuffs up, send it back and install the spare. I heard of a bloke who does that with two Marches. If you frighten easily, don't look up their prices.

I might have mis-spelled Jackie's name.
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Re: Do off the shelf rifles really differ that much?

Post by GQshayne » 11 Nov 2019, 7:28 pm

I have a Japanese made Tasco World Class in 2-8. It is on my .22lr. On my .243 I have a 1-6 Swarovski.

I was sighting in the .22 and was having trouble seeing the holes in the target (black bull) on 8 power. So I grabbed the 10 power binoculars. No good either. I did not want to wait for the range to clear, so I grabbed the .243 to have a look through the 6 power Swaro. The holes were very clear and easily seen. Surprised me how much difference there was at close range. Big difference.
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Re: Do off the shelf rifles really differ that much?

Post by Shootermick » 11 Nov 2019, 9:41 pm

Buy whatever you want, personal preference wins out every time. But.. make sure you have at least one 22, if you’re like me and a lot of others you may just use it way more then you might think. Then just buy something else, and another something else, and so on. Safes full? Buy another one of the too.
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Re: Do off the shelf rifles really differ that much?

Post by sungazer » 11 Nov 2019, 10:01 pm

You just ont get sick of shooting 22s . it could be a top end Anschutz that you can shoot tiny targets with or a pump or a lever that you can plink at cans and stuff. Its an easy way to spend a few hours in the sun, not making too much noise, not beating yourself up or costing you a lot.
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Re: Do off the shelf rifles really differ that much?

Post by gordicans » 12 Nov 2019, 1:57 am

I'm confused by your first paragraph ie

"Im looking to purchase a rifle for the first time and get into the sport. Not likely to have the oportunity to hunt often so I'm gearing towards something that'll easily reach out to 600 and has potential to hit out to 1000m."

Why does not having the opportunity to hunt often makes you want something that will easily reach out to 600 - 1000m's? Is it because you won't be hunting much so you can use it at the range? Or is it because you won't be hunting much so you'll need to take advantage of every opportunity and shoot animals at long distance? If it's the latter forget it, it's nonsense. Do you have any idea what a target looks like at 1000 meters through a scope? If you're new to the sport get a 22 and learn to reach out to 100 meters...1000 meters is total fantasy land if you are new to the sport. Critters need to be respected. Apologies if you are referring to targets
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Re: Do off the shelf rifles really differ that much?

Post by marksman » 12 Nov 2019, 6:47 pm

Bill wrote:Jump in the deep end and buy one of these ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-fcTUmQKXo



this is very impressive for any factory rifle shooting factory ammo

it also shows how versatile the 6.5x55 swede is
when they were shooting at 1000 l was impressed with the statement that the 6.5x55 would be starting at 20% less power than the match grade 308 ammo they had used but at 1000 would have 20% more impact than the match grade 308 ammo,
l could have corrected the first guy to shoot in his setup on the rifle as well as his bi-pod use but he was hitting steel at 1000 the way he was doing it
obviously not competition record winners but they are not trying to be

thanks for putting this one up Bill :drinks:

and they aren't bad for tea baggers eh Bill :thumbsup: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Do off the shelf rifles really differ that much?

Post by Stix » 12 Nov 2019, 8:26 pm

marksman wrote:
this is very impressive for any factory rifle shooting factory ammo

it also shows how versatile the 6.5x55 swede is
when they were shooting at 1000 l was impressed with the statement that the 6.5x55 would be starting at 20% less power than the match grade 308 ammo they had used but at 1000 would have 20% more impact than the match grade 308 ammo,
l could have corrected the first guy to shoot in his setup on the rifle as well as his bi-pod use but he was hitting steel at 1000 the way he was doing it
obviously not competition record winners but they are not trying to be

thanks for putting this one up Bill :drinks:

and they aren't bad for tea baggers eh Bill :thumbsup: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Correct him ho w marksman...?
The man who knows everything, doesnt really know everything...he's just stopped learning...
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Re: Do off the shelf rifles really differ that much?

Post by GQshayne » 12 Nov 2019, 8:31 pm

sungazer wrote:You just ont get sick of shooting 22s . it could be a top end Anschutz that you can shoot tiny targets with or a pump or a lever that you can plink at cans and stuff. Its an easy way to spend a few hours in the sun, not making too much noise, not beating yourself up or costing you a lot.


You make a good point for many people, but I am an exception. I do not use my .22 for this, I get bored in a heartbeat. I had an FN Browning .22, and replaced it with an Anschutz, so nice rifles too. I recently bought another box of Winchester Power Points for it, as my last packet was just about empty. Not sure how long I have had that old box, but it had a price sticker of $2.85. I am not much of a target shooter I guess.
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Re: Do off the shelf rifles really differ that much?

Post by marksman » 13 Nov 2019, 10:39 am

"Correct him how marksman...?"

the first guy to shoot at 1000 has not set himself up to shoot consistently straight and does not load the bipod before he shoots Stix
this guy explains it better than l ever could, better setup/position = better precision
it is harder in the field sometimes but get this right and you are 2/3rd's of the way there

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLeJ8rRUSXc

if you watch the first guy at 1000 in Bills vid as he shoots the rifle jumps all over the place, what you want for precision is a smooth rearward push

to load up the bipod you put enough forward pressure on the bipod with your shoulder that you can let the rifle go and it will not fall off your shoulder, you do not want the legs dragging backward like this guy has happening when taking the shot
l cant find it at the moment but "mark and sam" videos have the technique you want and mark shows in slowmo how it should look

these are things IMHO everyone should know about and practice often before they start shooting animals at longer range :thumbsup:
its all part of it and its what works for me :drinks: good question Stix :drinks:
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Re: Do off the shelf rifles really differ that much?

Post by SCJ429 » 13 Nov 2019, 7:30 pm

I don't shoot 1000 metres from the prone position but do some shorter range stuff. I cannot make loading up the bipod work for me. I use light pressure from my shoulder and squeeze the rear bag. Light cheek weld and I keep my right hand thumb on the right side of the stock.

I am not a world class shooter but that is what works for me.
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Re: Do off the shelf rifles really differ that much?

Post by marksman » 13 Nov 2019, 8:56 pm

l'm not a world class shooter myself SCJ429, l dont even shoot comp of any sort, my pay off is filling the freezer with as little waste as possible :drinks:

this is the utube vid from mark and sam about shooting from a bipod off a bench for precision shooting and explains bipod preload
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hh42VNxFkg
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Re: Do off the shelf rifles really differ that much?

Post by SCJ429 » 13 Nov 2019, 9:36 pm

Thanks for the link MM, no disrespect to Mark or Sam but that technique does not work for me. The best prone bipod shooters are in F Class and it is interesting to see them at work. For me a light touch is easier to repeat and gives me better groups.

If loading the bipod works for you then you should continue but I cannot master the technique.
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Re: Do off the shelf rifles really differ that much?

Post by Homer » 14 Nov 2019, 7:14 am

G'Day Fella's,

Shooter .243, in my experience, when it comes to these kinda things, you get what you pay for.

Whilst some of the factory produced rifles, are good value for money, some of the custom made rifles, are are a definite improvement on the factory offerings.
I have always been very impressed, with the Australian custom rifles, made by http://www.gcpdarms.com.
I have owned one for a couple of years now, and I'm so happy with it, I'm saving up for another one from them.

Here's my .338 Lap Mag.
.338 Lap Mag.JPG
.338 Lap Mag.JPG (720.5 KiB) Viewed 3938 times


Hope that helps

D'oh!
Homer
Last edited by Homer on 16 Nov 2019, 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do off the shelf rifles really differ that much?

Post by Spanielz11 » 14 Nov 2019, 8:08 am

G'day Shooter243,

I think most people have hit the nail on the head here as far as getting a 22LR to start practicing with.
If the maximun range that you can generally get to 200m with you having to travel to get out to a 600m range, my advice is this-
Grab yourself a HOWA 1500 Barreled action or one of the cheaper rifles(1 in 9 twist). same same for the your local store.
Dont stress about the stock because you are going to want to drop it into a Bell and Carlson or one of the many chassis that are going around. up to you if you want a detachable magazine or not. last but not least is glass, i highly reconmend bushnell, recently got a one of the NITRO line and by gods am i impressed with it. its no nightforce or schmidt but it definately can compete with them as far as quality for price goes.

Im saying this because i turned my Weatherby Vanguard (fancy HOWA) into a tack driver by doing just that.
The B&C stocks are alloy V-block bedded to get the best action to stock fit you can short of glass bedding the whole rifle.
The big thing is practicing, you can train all day on a rimfire but you will still need centre fire time. by going with a 223 you can buy those OSA bulk ammo deals and shoot to your hearts content. that little 223 with 55/60grain projectiles is more than capable of half minute groups at 200-300 from a well setup factory rifle.

All in just my 2cents, i wish you the best of luck with which ever direction you choose to go and am looking to forward to hearing your results, better yet seeing you on the range mate.
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Re: Do off the shelf rifles really differ that much?

Post by SckSqzBngBlo » 14 Nov 2019, 10:08 am

Your situation might be possible to just buy 22 ammo and use your friends to practice with?
Let them use the gun you choose to buy and everyone can hopefully learn something.
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Re: Do off the shelf rifles really differ that much?

Post by SCJ429 » 14 Nov 2019, 6:59 pm

Spanielz11 wrote:G'day Shooter243,
Im saying this because i turned my Weatherby Vanguard (fancy HOWA) into a tack driver by doing just that.
The B&C stocks are alloy V-block bedded to get the best action to stock fit you can short of glass bedding the whole rifle.
The big thing is practicing, you can train all day on a rimfire but you will still need centre fire time. by going with a 223 you can buy those OSA bulk ammo deals and shoot to your hearts content. that little 223 with 55/60grain projectiles is more than capable of half minute groups at 200-300 from a well setup factory rifle.
.


Hey Spaniel,
Why doesn't your Weatherby Vangard (fancy Howa) feature on your Signiture block?
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Re: Do off the shelf rifles really differ that much?

Post by Spanielz11 » 15 Nov 2019, 2:15 pm

Hey Spaniel,
Why doesn't your Weatherby Vangard (fancy Howa) feature on your Signiture block?


SCJ429,
Good point, just looked back over the signature and realised that I had infact forgotten to put it in. :crazy: Since been fixed, so i thank you for pointing that out.
If its big and fast, I wanna know all about it
Weatherby MkV - .220 Swift
Remington Sendero - .300 RUM
AIA M10B2 - .308 Win
Musgrave - .308 Win
Weatherby Vanguard - .223 Rem
Remington 788 - .222 Rem
Stirling 14 - .22 LR
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Re: Do off the shelf rifles really differ that much?

Post by sungazer » 15 Nov 2019, 2:52 pm

Do you shoot F class? Is the or was the Musgrave a single shot target rifle?
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Re: Do off the shelf rifles really differ that much?

Post by SCJ429 » 15 Nov 2019, 6:12 pm

Spanielz11 wrote:Hey Spaniel,
Why doesn't your Weatherby Vangard (fancy Howa) feature on your Signiture block?


SCJ429,
Good point, just looked back over the signature and realised that I had infact forgotten to put it in. :crazy: Since been fixed, so i thank you for pointing that out.


Nice wrk Spaniel, what do you prefer, the 222 or the 223. I have a soft spot for the 222 but only own a 223.
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Re: Do off the shelf rifles really differ that much?

Post by Spanielz11 » 18 Nov 2019, 8:30 am

sungazer,
Yeah the Musgrave is a single shot target rifle for F/TR, 30" krieger, Built by a bloke that lives out in Tully QLD. real sweet rifle that shoots pretty darn well aslong as the numpty pulling the trigger does their job :thumbsup: I did shoot F/Class and benchrest a bit back over in townsville, was just getting the loads really fine tuned for when i left for the NT, so she hasnt had her legs stretched for a while now

SCJ429,
Thats a real hard one to answer, the .222 i rebuilt from a rifle that was set to be destroyed. both would make superb varminters. I'd say the 223 is more accurate ( havent put them side by side at the range yet ) than the .222 but then i have the 223 built for friends to learn how to shoot past 200m, the 222 is still wearing its timber and is much more a field rifle. I dont think i really have a preference as they are both really fun to shoot, i will admit that the 222 does have a very different kind of thump when you pull the trigger, more like a bam than a crack like the 223.
If its big and fast, I wanna know all about it
Weatherby MkV - .220 Swift
Remington Sendero - .300 RUM
AIA M10B2 - .308 Win
Musgrave - .308 Win
Weatherby Vanguard - .223 Rem
Remington 788 - .222 Rem
Stirling 14 - .22 LR
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Re: Do off the shelf rifles really differ that much?

Post by Elmer » 19 Nov 2019, 2:04 pm

Leadspitter wrote:Shooter 243

Do yourself a favour and buy a 22 .

Practice on the 22 at the range

Find an old hand at the range with a 243

See what groups he is getting at 200 yards

Then you see how you go !

That will be a big wake up call.

The same people that think mc donalds is food, think that 600 metres is easy.


I agree, 600-1000yds for a beginer?....600 is a bloody long way on small targets like rabbits etc, it takes ****** of practice, even if you do have top notch equipment.
You are right, he should start of with a rimfire and practice, he will find that 200(like you said) , will be like shooting his .243 at 600 (even more so).
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