Factory vs modifying vs custom build

[scoot]

The recent post about differences in factory rifle offering has got me pondering. If one desires a "nice" rifle are you better to:
Buy a higher priced factory option like a sako 85 or Remington sendero, etc
Buy a basic platform like a cheap howa then modify. E.g. stock, trigger, accurising.
Go full ground up like stiller, Krieger, manners, timney...
Personal experience tells me its easy to burn some cash modifying a rifle. It doesn't take long to reach the kind of money higher end factory rifles are available for. At the same time ive also noticed custom builds very competitively priced.
So... do you go factory and be happy with what you get, tweak something standard to your taste or just go balls deep and build exactly what you desire from scratch.

Interested in peoples opinions or experience...

[solarpak]

All depends - hunting rifle with a scorer weight barrel? Long range hunting rig with #3 or #6 contour tube? Target rifle?

I have done your first two options and can say that buying a rifle like the Sako 85 or Rem Sendero you will always have a rifle that retains its value quite well.

Building up something like a Howa is great too - but again when the time comes to sell the rifle your better off selling off the individual components..... rather than the whole rig.....

Just depends what floats your boat......and the depth of your pockets

C.

[wannabustbunnies]

I went the Howa barreled action option and got a Bell & Carlson stock for one and an MDT chassis for another. My mini action I bought complete but have also got a Bell & Carlson for that now.
They all have the same trigger mod done to them and I got the stocks and chassis as cheaply as possible.
For me it was the best way to do it. If I had more money to spend I might have chosen another route but I certainly have no regrets and they hold their own against custom guns in the competitions that I do

[in2anity]

IMO you don't need to go balls-deep to construct a phenomenally accurate rifle. Match barrels bedded in walnut were stacking rounds well before any of these chassis everyone seems so hell bent on nowadays...

All you need is a good solid action, perhaps a Howa, trued and paired with a $600 aftermarket match barrel, bedded properly in your (potentially budget) stock of choice, sporting a crisp light trigger. Combine that with an inherently accurate 6 to 6.5mm cartridge of choice and you should be easily shooting under 1/2moa.

All for under $1500.

[SCJ429]

Every boy should have one custom actioned rifle. Such beautiful machining and they are a pleasure to use. I wish all my rifles had Bat Machine, Barnard or Stolle written on them

I saw a used Barnard in 223 going for $2500, not a lot of money for such a beautiful rifle.

[scoot]

Not shopping just thinking aloud. The big brands all offer rifles for most purposes so you can find something close to your needs. But..... im noticing a lot of custom option builds for $6000 or less. APRS has ex display/demos listed on their site for $4700. My 308 sps varmint now owes me more than that and its still only average. Maybe its just human nature to seek out only whats put in front of us. Ive definitely been guilty of buying stuff because its there in front of me or perceived as good...dunno

[TassieTiger]

Every boy should have one custom actioned rifle. Such beautiful machining and they are a pleasure to use. I wish all my rifles had Bat Machine, Barnard or Stolle written on them

I saw a used Barnard in 223 going for $2500, not a lot of money for such a beautiful rifle.

I agree - custom actions are a thing of beauty but - the question becomes = what would that Bernard 223 do better than a shelf tikka 223 that was given some love and attention ? Are we now not at a questionable line where factory tolerances are equal too or even surpass “specials” in terms of accuracy, usability, value?

[bigrich]

most of my rifles are old winchester 70's , two push feeds and a CRF that i've redone the stocks, rebarreled and floated and bedded . accuracy is extremely good with some loads , and standard model 70 triggers that are polished on the sears and adjusted are very good. the satisfaction i have from building these up is priceless . i could have spent the same money buying a new synthetic rifle but it's just not the same for me . no soul . horses for courses i guess . i should get back into my 1903 8x57 turk custom carbine ......

[SCJ429]

As good as the Tikkas are they feel clunky compared to a Barnard. The Barnard also has a fantastic trigger.

That said I have used a Tikka action to beat guys using Stolle and Barnard actions so it does come down to barrels, your loading skills and the nut behind the trigger.

[flutch]

all I will say is that I have a Howa 1500 Short action with varmint barrel, in a boyds thumbhole stock, and it shoots clover leafs all day. cost me $795 brand new.

[duncan61]

I will never regret buying a Remington Sendero in 7mm Rem Mag

[SCJ429]

Do you think that spending $2,500 on the action brings any benefits over a Remington or Howa actions? Do the precise tolerances add anything in the accuracy stakes?

[Bill]

I suspect SCJ429 you already know the answer, Barrel quality, projectile design/QC and reloading ability would outweigh $2500 actions......

[duncan61]

A ford cortina will get you from A-B but its nicer in a rolls royce

[marksman]

I suspect SCJ429 you already know the answer, Barrel quality, projectile design/QC and reloading ability would outweigh $2500 actions......

agree with you 100%

l build because l am a dreadful mauser 98 groupie and cant get what l want new
but dont worry they shoot, l dont care if they cost more than l will get back l dont sell them and they can be done under $2,500 with scope
an example is my 22 dasher, even with the cost of a reamer, materials, smith, postage and second hand nightforce br scope still under $2,500



it can be done and is my preference if it can be done for what l want

[Am88]

I haven't quite made it to the custom action yet, I have a T3 and a Rem 700 in bedded Bell and Carlson stocks done by me both with triggers either factory modified or Timney, both factory barrels until shot out atm, currently in the process of an building an old CMC Mountaineer action (Howa) with a match barrel and going to be keeping it's factory timber stock pillar and glass bedded. Currently away getting barrel .222 Magnum. And will have a Maddco trigger. Never had the urge to get a custom action, probably never will, id rather bought the money into optics. I was a bit in the same boat thinking of buying a higher end rifle like the 85 or a Christensen arms and be done with it, but at the same time, I like the fact of saying I built something different myself. The old saying 'Built not Bought' comes to mind with me a lot.

[TassieTiger]

A ford cortina will get you from A-B but its nicer in a rolls royce

Yes. But now your talking about “experience”. If the aim of the game is to arrive at exactly same location (POI) - then what $$$ do you put on experience - because that is only limited by budget...and you can then say - well, a Barnard is crap compared to my $20,000 xxxx brand and so on...

[sungazer]

The difference comes down to design more than anything. What the design provides for is more rigidity and strength. The customs dont usually have mag wells and they dont have large open wells on the top. The bolt may or may not have an ejection piston, this presents the cartridge straight into the chamber without any side pressure. The ejection port can be made to order it is normally quite large so you can extract the cartridge with a finger if you dont have the ejection piston.

If you are going to hang a long thick barrel on a factory action that has really big cut outs on the top, the bottom and one side think if it is really designed for that purpose.

[TassieTiger]

The difference comes down to design more than anything. What the design provides for is more rigidity and strength. The customs dont usually have mag wells and they dont have large open wells on the top. The bolt may or may not have an ejection piston, this presents the cartridge straight into the chamber without any side pressure. The ejection port can be made to order it is normally quite large so you can extract the cartridge with a finger if you dont have the ejection piston.

If you are going to hang a long thick barrel on a factory action that has really big cut outs on the top, the bottom and one side think if it is really designed for that purpose.

And the ultimate affect on accuracy ?

[sungazer]

@TassieTiger Well that is for you and every person to decide when they buy a gun. What is the value proposition that you are willing to purchase.

For me I have a variety of guns from cheap Howas to Sako 85 and custom, milsurp, bolt, pump, lever, break each fits a point that satisfies me.

[bigrich]

@TassieTiger Well that is for you and every person to decide when they buy a gun. What is the value proposition that you are willing to purchase.

For me I have a variety of guns from cheap Howas to Sako 85 and custom, milsurp, bolt, pump, lever, break each fits a point that satisfies me.

Variety is interesting for sure. I’ve owned and traded a lot of different stuff to find what fits what I want to do

[TassieTiger]

@TassieTiger Well that is for you and every person to decide when they buy a gun. What is the value proposition that you are willing to purchase.

For me I have a variety of guns from cheap Howas to Sako 85 and custom, milsurp, bolt, pump, lever, break each fits a point that satisfies me.

I’ll ask again, The effect on accuracy?

The topic question asks regarding a nice rifle - that is something different to everyone,
What I’m proposing is that the factory rifles of today have progressed to a point where the accuracy question is a bit of a moot point...for all but specialist shooters,

[sungazer]

@TassieTiger Well that is for you and every person to decide when they buy a gun. What is the value proposition that you are willing to purchase.

For me I have a variety of guns from cheap Howas to Sako 85 and custom, milsurp, bolt, pump, lever, break each fits a point that satisfies me.

I’ll ask again, The effect on accuracy?

The topic question asks regarding a nice rifle - that is something different to everyone,
What I’m proposing is that the factory rifles of today have progressed to a point where the accuracy question is a bit of a moot point...for all but specialist shooters,

I think you just answered your own question. Yes I believe that there are specialist actions built that deliver better accuracy.

If you only want to talk about accuracy in regards to this thread Factory, modified and specialist /custom. Then the answer would be custom every part / component of the gun is responsible for accuracy. As long as there is a week link in the chain it will never be as strong that has every link purpose built and specialised. Thats my opinion anyway

[TassieTiger]

Ill ask the question a different way...
Could Joe Smoe, a general hunter and part time shooter (not F class or regular A grade target) - gain anything from shooting a well set up (inc bullets, etc) Tikka / Howa / Rem vs a specialized and custom action / barrel arrangement ? Would the extra dollars result in real world results for the average shooter ?

[sungazer]

In another thread that asked the question you are posing my first word out was a simple. No.

But I dont see what point you are trying to make If you are a target shooter and have the means to measure, you can see the differences in accuracy between rifles. That is between all rifles. Different brands / models will tend to fall into a band of accuracy. Different designs will fall into different bands.

There are factory rifles that cost more than building a rifle from "Top Shelf" components as well. What do you have to say about those? Is the customer a fool for purchasing that rifle? or did he get "his value" for money?

At what point do you say that is too much money to spend? What level of accuracy or perhaps craftsmanship do you draw the line and say you have reached the point of diminishing returns.

What is it in a rifle that demands the higher price?

There are many aspects and levels in the general question though and that is why there are different price points. Quality of the wood does it for some people.

[in2anity]

Ill ask the question a different way...
Could Joe Smoe, a general hunter and part time shooter (not F class or regular A grade target) - gain anything from shooting a well set up (inc bullets, etc) Tikka / Howa / Rem vs a specialized and custom action / barrel arrangement ? Would the extra dollars result in real world results for the average shooter ?

Yes; it makes reloading much simpler. And it means you can shoot the cheap stuff better than in cheaper factory barrels. Also, it takes any doubt out of target shooting; all error is guaranteed to have stemmed from the user not the gun (psycholigical factor).

[Sergeant Hartman]

Its funny i keep hearing bad things about rem700 not shooting that good.

Anyway tassie, a new 2500 remmington might not be that much better than say a 800 howa as far as shooting is concerned...but might have better fit and finish (ok sometimes you don't get any better by paying more.... maybe i should have said a tikka).

But what causes inaccuratcy in a rifle.. apart from the shooter. The biggest effect would be the barrel. Then trigger... than action. The reason fclass Thanks go custom action is cuz firstly they are looking for the final 2% plus they likely run extreme loads and pressures... that normal actions can't handle... plus as said above no extractor or magazine so round is sitting straight.

Now you can get a good barrel on say a cheap howa and it should shoot better than a factory tikka or a 2500 gun.

[marksman]

If you are going to hang a long thick barrel on a factory action that has really big cut outs on the top, the bottom and one side think if it is really designed for that purpose.

this is counteracted by proper/correct bedding
the problem with this is that the action will have stress on it bending slightly till you fire a shot when the action will snap straight
when the action snaps straight it can cause inconsistencies
the same problem happens with round actions eg... remington and some custom actions that have the rem footprint
it is the reason why a few custom actions have integral picatinny rails to stiffen the action up on top but keep the rem footprint for stocking
as l said though if you bed properly it's not a problem

[SCJ429]

No matter what you do to a Tikka or a Howa you won't be setting any records with it. The custom actions use quality billet steel, great design and fantastic machine work. If you have the inclination and opportunity you should treat yourself.

Not taking anything away from what you have done with your Mauser 98 there Marksman, quite inspirational as I have a 1909 Argentine there I should slip a barrel onto.

[TassieTiger]

Can the average shooter use the extra precision that a top end build offers? - or, not unlike the populace being faster on a track in a standard car than a v8 super car, because it takes regular and ongoing practice to get the best out of that supercar??