Cratering Primers - Used HOWA 1500

[in2anity]

Bit of a backstory, I picked up a well-loved old HOWA 1500 chambered in 204. Not exactly sure how old it is, but we think it came from before HOWA switched to the Hogue stock (this one has an old Howa Walnut stock that has the two threads factory-epoxied into recesses in the timber as a stiffening mechanism). It has certainly done some work as a farm gun...

I didn't shoot the gun in its original 204 configuration, rather immediately shipped it to my gunsmith and rebarreled to 223 rem. The gun came back, so I procedeeded to load up some 62gr pills over a full case of AR2206H (25.5gr to be exact). That's essentially the max listed load for such a pill. I also loaded some 69gr SMKs over the same charge, which turned out to be a bit of a crunchy, compressed load.

I took it to the range and shot some tight groups at 50m:

62gr TAP, 69gr SMK

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Nevertheless, with the TAP loads I noticed where the firing pin struck, primers were bulging out like a little "tit":

62gr TAP, 25.5gr AR2206H

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When I got to the fourth SMK round, alas I suffered a pierced primer (I am now very thankful of the HOWA vented bolt):

69gr SMK, 25.5gr AR2206H

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Pierced primer "deeper" than the rest

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The thought then occured to me as a comparison, I should immediately compare against some factory ammo:

SAKO gamehead factory

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So that's what I did, and as you can see the factory SAKO ammo also exhibited the same, cratering primer problem, indiciating the factory is operating at a similar pressure to my handloads.

I understand this may be a problem with firing-pin hole slop, or perhaps a weak firing pin spring? So here's some pics of these parts out of the bolt:

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One side of the pin is still blued

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But the other side is a little "polished"

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Tiny bit of wiggle going in, but not hugely...

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Can any of you wise folk tell what's going wrong here?

Cheers,
In2.

[Member-Deleted]

First of all In2anity i would get the head space checked then the firing pin spring judging from the same thing happening from 2 different lots of ammunition then i'd guess it has something to do with head space or the firing spring

[sungazer]

It is also a bit of a known occurrence when using factory firing pins and bolts with small rifle primers. the firing pin is about the same size of the inside of the primer cup.

At first glance I was going to say it looked like firing pin hole slop as the primers still looked rounded in the corners but the pierced primer (correct term Blanked Primer) is not good I would load lighter rounds.

The factory look even more like over pressure the primers have flattened out and you have the same primer flow on the edge of failure. That doesn't surprise me for all the bleeting people go on about at starting at minimum loads most factory are very hot near max loads.

I would load light loads say 24grn 2206H and see how you go with those the difference in velocity will be minimal and not show any real difference other than less primer flow. I would also try some CCI BR4 primers if you get them NSWRA they wont be that much more expensive.

[in2anity]

First of all In2anity i would get the head space checked then the firing pin spring judging from the same thing happening from 2 different lots of ammunition then i'd guess it has something to do with head space or the firing spring

If it were a headspacing issue, wouldn't you expect to see the entire primer backing out?

[Member-Deleted]

Well in2anity mate not necessarily the whole brass would move back I had an old 303 do the same and found they had changed the bolt and it had gained head space for reasons unknown and was doing the same thing as yours so fixing that solved my problem I thought it would be a good place to start no harm in doing so and a GS could do it in 5min but also to me sungazer makes a lot of sense as well he's had more experience with things like that

[marksman]

try a harder cup primer, the cci 450 and br4 are both .025" thick and either should fix the problem
cookie cutting is another term for "blanking", they are not the same as a pierced primer

l had the same problem with my 22 dasher
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9172

[Cooper]

The Factory Sako ammo is to warm side. From memory I think it was doing 3300fps with the 55 gr projectiles. So not too slow. I got similar cratering in my rifle.

I would back your reloads down a grain or so and switch to primers with a thicker. CCI BR4 as already mentioned or CCI 450 small rifle magnum or Remington 7 1/2 as I believe they also have the thicker primer cup.

Might also be worth trying a different brand of factory ammo other than the SAKO.

[sungazer]

The Remington's are know for being soft from what I have heard so I would stay away from those. they are known for being very good for consistent good loads and being very reliable.

[in2anity]

try a harder cup primer, the cci 450 and br4 are both .025" thick and either should fix the problem
cookie cutting is another term for "blanking", they are not the same as a pierced primer

l had the same problem with my 22 dasher
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9172

Lot's of useful information in that post - thanks for that I've got half a tray of CCI450s in the safe - I'll load em up with a milder charge as suggested. I've also ordered a (used) firing pin spring from Rebel, but I'll hold off on dropping that in until i've tested the loads.

[marksman]

just to let it be known my 22 dasher was blanking with rem 7 1/2 primers used
and lowering the load is not a fix if it it not a high pressure load, loads don't have to be over pressure to blank a primer
sloppy bolt head firing pin channel and or improper shape and or protrusion on the firing pin tip

headspace can be the cause of pierced primers

as for the cratering when fired the primer conforms to the firing pin the firing pin spring must be strong enough to hold the pressure in the primer if the spring is weak pressure inside the primer pushes the dent out of the primer it is about this time the dent reverses instead of an 'innie' the dent becomes an 'outtie'
that said l believe using harder cup primers will fix it

your question to "If it were a headspacing issue, wouldn't you expect to see the entire primer backing out?"
the answer is no, a primer backing out is caused by low pressure not headspace

let us know how it goes

changing the firing pin would not be a fix, the fix is to get the firing pin hole bushed

[Sergeant Hartman]

I have a howa 1500 in 223. With 55gr ruining 24.5gr with cci400 primers. I was getting pierced primers and catering like yours, i changed to federal match, and then 7 1/2 no pierced issues. I think it's the slop with very thin cups of cci400s

[in2anity]

I have a howa 1500 in 223. With 55gr ruining 24.5gr with cci400 primers. I was getting pierced primers and catering like yours, i changed to federal match, and then 7 1/2 no pierced issues. I think it's the slop with very thin cups of cci400s

Yeah I'm using CCI400s so hopefully the culprit. Irony is, I'm forced to use CCI400s in a Ruger I have, as it light strikes. I'll try and pick up some Rem 7 1/2s ASAP.

[in2anity]

just to let it be known my 22 dasher was blanking with rem 7 1/2 primers used ..

Thanks marksman - i have quite a list of incremental tests to make now, further down the list being installing a replacement firing pin spring, followed finally by a trip to the GS for bushing the fireing pin hole. Hopefully it doesn't come to that...

[sungazer]

With the bushing of the firing pin hole, goes turning down the firing pin to .062 and sometimes the extractor is damaged and they have to fit a Sako type extractor.

[Oldbloke]

The local GS has just fitted a new barrel. Why not take it back to him with the fired csses and ask about head spsce (check) and the firing pin clearance?

Before rooting around with loads etc.

[in2anity]

The local GS has just fitted a new barrel. Why not take it back to him with the fired csses and ask about head spsce (check) and the firing pin clearance?

Before rooting around with loads etc.

Because I am time poor during work-hours. On the contrary reloading and shooting late night is something I can control. I will take it to him in due time if I feel the need. That and I like to solve problems myself.

[Sergeant Hartman]

Get a set of go/no go guages

[Blr243]

Have never seen primers that bad before. Definitely something not good

[Oldbloke]

Have never seen primers that bad before. Definitely something not good

I agree

[SCJ429]

You might have noticed that it is fairly warm at the moment, not the best time to test hot loads. If you fire a shot and the primer looks deformed then stop shooting. Pressures are going to go up with subsequence firings. As Marksman said, CCI BR4 and 450 primers have a thicker cup. Use a powder that tolerates temperature changes, ADI is a world leader there. And work up to a load with a ladder test, what is an extra 10 shots to you to prevent this.

Is you 223 a factory chambering or did they use a tight custom reamer? What speed are your loads producing?

[Stix]

Hey In2...i hope y'all dont mind if i quietly poke my head in here...
I have a similar problem (not as bad) with a new rifle i shot for first time on weekend...
Figured id throw my pic up here rather than start another thread for the same thing--i hope thats ok...
(Need an emoji of a meerkat peering over a rise... )...

So...these are just Federal primers--it's all ive really ever used...
Shot in a Sako 85 VLS...26.9gr of 8208...Hdy 40gr Vmax.

Bit of cratering

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Had one do this & not fire...but rechambered it & it fired ok second time... ( )

Did not fire...

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Same case-different angle...

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Dont feel hot loads, & they are not hot according to ADI-well they're getting up near the top of their list--although some of the cases were getting on their way to full as they are new & were FL sized down a fair way so they were all the same...

I shot 34gr Nos shots & 40gr Vmax, & its only the low end of ADI list that dont crater like these...

My other 204 doesnt do it but is only shooting a mild load of 2208...

So...should i just try these CCI primers...or do i need to get this bolt/firing pin assembly checked...?

Again, sorry to butt in...dont want to hijack...i just see it pointless to ask the same thing in a different thread...

[Strikey]

Have the same problem with my Howa that's rechambered to 223AI, there are 2 problems with Howas chambered for calibres using Small Rifle primers, the firing pin diameter is too large for small rifle primers and add in too much firing pin clearance results in cratering or blanking ( piercing ) primers. Until I get mine rebarrelled which is when I will have the firing pin sorted I am getting around the problem using CCI BR4's, these and the 450's have thicker cups, still get some cratering but no holes in primers.

[SCJ429]

Have the same problem with my Howa that's rechambered to 223AI, there are 2 problems with Howas chambered for calibres using Small Rifle primers, the firing pin diameter is too large for small rifle primers and add in too much firing pin clearance results in cratering or blanking ( piercing ) primers. Until I get mine rebarrelled which is when I will have the firing pin sorted I am getting around the problem using CCI BR4's, these and the 450's have thicker cups, still get some cratering but no holes in primers.

I think you might be onto something there. I have seen the same thing on another Howa in 223.

I had good results with 69 grain SMK using 25.4 grains of 2206H in my Tikka, it was shooting in the low 0.3 and high 0.2s. I pushed the load to just over 26 grains before I saw pressure signs. I was using BR4 primers.

[SCJ429]

Had one do this & not fire...but rechambered it & it fired ok second time... ( )

2019-12-09 18.14.05.jpg

Same case-different angle...

2019-12-09 18.14.40.jpg

Again, sorry to butt in...dont want to hijack...i just see it pointless to ask the same thing in a different thread...

That primer does look like it is seated very deep.. Did you recut the primer pockets on this brass?

[flutch]

ive only had one or two of these on my howa and both were hornady rounds. one was punched right through and the other a little more severely punched in, my firing pin does leave a decent dent in the primers, but I would put the issue down to a few s**ty primers rather than the gun.

[Stix]

quote="Stix"]

Had one do this & not fire...but rechambered it & it fired ok second time... ( )

2019-12-09 18.14.05.jpg

Same case-different angle...

2019-12-09 18.14.40.jpg

Again, sorry to butt in...dont want to hijack...i just see it pointless to ask the same thing in a different thread...

That primer does look like it is seated very deep.. Did you recut the primer pockets on this brass?[/quote]
Yes...
The detsils & depth i posted in the thread for the new brass...
Ill look it up a wee bit later...

But they are within spec i think...

[Sergeant Hartman]

3rd and 4th is light primer strike... could be if they are seated too deep

[flutch]

That primer does look like it is seated very deep.. Did you recut the primer pockets on this brass?

Yes...
The detsils & depth i posted in the thread for the new brass...
Ill look it up a wee bit later...

But they are within spec i think... [/quote]

I am with ya on that one stix, its not a case of powder charge else that primer would be flattened out not just protruding like that.

[SCJ429]

I remember your thread but I thought it was 22/250 brass.

[in2anity]

I'm surprised by the number of people who seem to be have seen the same problem in their Howa 223 - Strikey you are giving me hope that my new (old) gun isn't flawed. The good news is i picked up some BR4s on the way home; and I'm not at all phased by loading a little milder.