Cratering Primers - Used HOWA 1500

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Re: Cratering Primers - Used HOWA 1500

Post by flutch » 09 Dec 2019, 7:25 pm

in2anity wrote:I'm surprised by the number of people who seem to be have seen the same problem in their Howa 223 - Strikey you are giving me hope that my new (old) gun isn't flawed. The good news is i picked up some BR4s on the way home; and I'm not at all phased by loading a little milder.



well not all factory ammo seats the primers perfectly and not all seat the primer the perfect depth for all rifles. but I have only had a couple of these on my howa, the rest of the time its fine, I have never had a soft strike tho... thats something I'm glad for.

and unless your primers are being pancaked out in the primer pocket the load isnt high.
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Re: Cratering Primers - Used HOWA 1500

Post by sungazer » 09 Dec 2019, 7:28 pm

Its not a Howa problem as such I have the same issue not as bad with a Remington 700 they are know for sloppy holes.

Stix I was going to say your primers / brass dont look quite right as the primer pocket looks a bit different to what I am used to seeing. There is a lot of unsupported primer case but they dont look flattened and square in the corners, That is a high pressure sign but with the primer pocket I am not sure what it may look like.

I think the light strikes are a head space issue New brass? or just FLS sized? Load the projectile out a little further to touch the Lands. Can also check the bolt or more so the firing pin inside to make sure it is not rubbing or getting caught up somehow. give the bolt a good run through with brake cleaner and a pressure air blast out.
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Re: Cratering Primers - Used HOWA 1500

Post by Strikey » 09 Dec 2019, 7:48 pm

in2anity wrote:I'm surprised by the number of people who seem to be have seen the same problem in their Howa 223 - Strikey you are giving me hope that my new (old) gun isn't flawed. The good news is i picked up some BR4s on the way home; and I'm not at all phased by loading a little milder.


With load development for the 223AI I have pushed the envelope a tad but haven't pierced a primer since switching to the BR4's, still see some cratering/ primer flow but it's not affecting things, I believe it's a reasonably simple job for any competent gunsmith to rebush the firing pin hole and no, it's not a HEADSPACE problem as a few others have suggested :lol:
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Re: Cratering Primers - Used HOWA 1500

Post by Stix » 09 Dec 2019, 8:02 pm

SCJ429 wrote:I remember your thread but I thought it was 22/250 brass.

I m as y have mentioned 22-250 brass at some point as im having some trouble with 22-250...
But the thread im thinking of was for new Nosler brass i bought for a new Sako...

Ok here tis...
The second paragraph of the last post in this thread has the depth i measured..... (ive fone it on mobile so hope the link works... :unknown: )
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12631

And here is the initial thread about the same batch of brass...
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12586&start=36
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Re: Cratering Primers - Used HOWA 1500

Post by Potatoes » 09 Dec 2019, 8:24 pm

Owner of a 1 year old 223 stainless sporter here. I too have had some minor cratering. All loads are consistently leaving a black ring after a few shots but a only few hot ones left an etching. I have buffed it out with green rouge. The hot loads were 55gr hornady spsx with 26.3-26.5 gr of ar2208. I found this load accurate to .4 MOA but after i found the etching im using 24.8gr of ar2206h. I still get the dark rings but they aren’t etching. Ill test the other advice here regarding thicker primer cups and see if that helps.

I was using hornady tap brass for my reloads, and with the 60gr vmax tap factory load i never had an issue. But in reloading the brass, i probably havent been as diligent as should have when putting the primers in, and ive noticed that it is highly like some loose brass from the edge of the primer pocket has gotten shaved off by the primer and may have created a spacer between the primer and the pocket. This space has enabled more gas to escape around the perimeter. I have been reloading for a year.
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Re: Cratering Primers - Used HOWA 1500

Post by Oldbloke » 09 Dec 2019, 8:42 pm

Not alot of experience here. But stix, the first image just looks like a warmish load.

The other looks like primer seated too deep.

Different cause to the problem in2anity has. IMO
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Re: Cratering Primers - Used HOWA 1500

Post by SCJ429 » 09 Dec 2019, 9:00 pm

Potatoes wrote:Owner of a 1 year old 223 stainless sporter here. I too have had some minor cratering. All loads are consistently leaving a black ring after a few shots but a only few hot ones left an etching. I have buffed it out with green rouge. The hot loads were 55gr hornady spsx with 26.3-26.5 gr of ar2208. I found this load accurate to .4 MOA but after i found the etching im using 24.8gr of ar2206h. I still get the dark rings but they aren’t etching. Ill test the other advice here regarding thicker primer cups and see if that helps.

I was using hornady tap brass for my reloads, and with the 60gr vmax tap factory load i never had an issue. But in reloading the brass, i probably havent been as diligent as should have when putting the primers in, and ive noticed that it is highly like some loose brass from the edge of the primer pocket has gotten shaved off by the primer and may have created a spacer between the primer and the pocket. This space has enabled more gas to escape around the perimeter. I have been reloading for a year.


Something going wrong there 'Tater. There should be no combustion gasses leaking out around the primer pocket. Are the primer pockets loose? Is there very little pressure needed to seat the primer? What type of primer are you using?
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Re: Cratering Primers - Used HOWA 1500

Post by Potatoes » 09 Dec 2019, 10:07 pm

SCJ429 wrote:
Something going wrong there 'Tater. There should be no combustion gasses leaking out around the primer pocket. Are the primer pockets loose? Is there very little pressure needed to seat the primer? What type of primer are you using?


I was using winchester primers but i when I observed the bases of my spent brass 1 or 2 had black around part edge of the primer. Also ive noticed that some brass shavings are being left on the head of the priming tool and i suspect that a shaving may have lodged in some, or some primers didn’t go in perfectly straight. Im using the lee challenger press with the priming tool that slots into the side of the ram. To mitigate the shavings im planning on giving the primer pocket a light twist on my deburring tool because the outer edge of the hornady brass looks roughly finished. Ive switched to cci primers. All the primers have felt pretty tight thus far.
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Re: Cratering Primers - Used HOWA 1500

Post by sungazer » 09 Dec 2019, 10:24 pm

If the primer pockets are loose toss them. this is from stout loads or high pressure loads or even just normal loads over time the head gets bigger expands and the primers will not be firm enough to seal the gasses. this is not good and the brass should be tossed straight away. its more than not good it is dangerous.
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Re: Cratering Primers - Used HOWA 1500

Post by straightshooter » 10 Dec 2019, 6:55 am

in2anity
Posts such as yours get many responses so good luck sorting the wheat from the chaff. It is a simple fact that some very experienced gunsmiths are clueless as to the detailed intricacies of the ignition process so your average poster should not feel slighted in offering their suggestions.
Looking at the pictures of your fired rounds the primers still look to be reasonably well rounded so pressures don't seem to be excessive although the Sako rounds might be a little hotter than the ADI.
So the cratering and blanking aren't an exclusive consequence of over pressure.
The explanation for the cratering is rather simple. That is that there is sufficient striker impact to ignite the primer but insufficient momentum or energy to support the primer during the ongoing combustion process to prevent extrusion of the primer cup into the firing pin hole. The sharp edges of the hole are what leads to blanking.
Now your picture of the striker mechanism has a couple of telltales one of which you have noted. The other is the rub marks on the cocking piece.
The culprit could be as simple as a spring coil catching on a burr inside the bolt.
Of the may other possibilities the worst would include a crooked firing pin or a crooked bore inside the bolt. But there are other reasons for misalignment dissipating striker energy.
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Re: Cratering Primers - Used HOWA 1500

Post by SCJ429 » 10 Dec 2019, 7:00 am

Is your Hornady brass featuring a primer crimp? Are you finding that you need an excessive amount of force to seat the primer and this is the scraping of brass you describe? If so you are deforming the primer as you seat it and this allows gases to escape onto your bolt face.

Either get a tool to remove the crimp or as Hornady brass is pretty average, get yourself some better brass that has no crimp. Problem solved.
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Re: Cratering Primers - Used HOWA 1500

Post by in2anity » 10 Dec 2019, 7:15 am

straightshooter wrote:in2anity
Posts such as yours get many responses so good luck sorting the wheat from the chaff. It is a simple fact that some very experienced gunsmiths are clueless as to the detailed intricacies of the ignition process so your average poster should not feel slighted in offering their suggestions.
Looking at the pictures of your fired rounds the primers still look to be reasonably well rounded so pressures don't seem to be excessive although the Sako rounds might be a little hotter than the ADI.
So the cratering and blanking aren't an exclusive consequence of over pressure.
The explanation for the cratering is rather simple. That is that there is sufficient striker impact to ignite the primer but insufficient momentum or energy to support the primer during the ongoing combustion process to prevent extrusion of the primer cup into the firing pin hole. The sharp edges of the hole are what leads to blanking.
Now your picture of the striker mechanism has a couple of telltales one of which you have noted. The other is the rub marks on the cocking piece.
The culprit could be as simple as a spring coil catching on a burr inside the bolt.
Of the may other possibilities the worst would include a crooked firing pin or a crooked bore inside the bolt. But there are other reasons for misalignment dissipating striker energy.


Thanks SS. I'll shoot the harder primers to start, and take it from there. I've got a new FP spring coming, so I might plop that in also (can't hurt). Beyond that, my GS is a can-do kind of guy and a perfectionist - we've been talking he seams eager to take a look
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Cratering Primers - Used HOWA 1500

Post by Potatoes » 10 Dec 2019, 9:05 am

SCJ429 wrote:Is your Hornady brass featuring a primer crimp? Are you finding that you need an excessive amount of force to seat the primer and this is the scraping of brass you describe? If so you are deforming the primer as you seat it and this allows gases to escape onto your bolt face.

Either get a tool to remove the crimp or as Hornady brass is pretty average, get yourself some better brass that has no crimp. Problem solved.


Fair question but there is no crimp, the brass is stamped as 223 rem. I looked at a 556 nato round and the crimp was obviously present in other hornady tap offerings. Sometimes the force to prime the brass is excessive and i have deformed primers, id say about 15% are like this. The worst ones get turfed but ive probably kept a couple that i shouldnt have. Better brass is definitely on the cards. Im planning on getting some adi.
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Re: Cratering Primers - Used HOWA 1500

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 10 Dec 2019, 9:40 am

I think all of hornady brass in 223 has a crimp (except maybe the ones you buy in a bag new, unprimed)
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Re: Cratering Primers - Used HOWA 1500

Post by marksman » 10 Dec 2019, 7:58 pm

Stix wrote:Hey In2...i hope y'all dont mind if i quietly poke my head in here...
I have a similar problem (not as bad) with a new rifle i shot for first time on weekend...
Figured id throw my pic up here rather than start another thread for the same thing--i hope thats ok... :)
(Need an emoji of a meerkat peering over a rise... :lol: )...

So...these are just Federal primers--it's all ive really ever used...
Shot in a Sako 85 VLS...26.9gr of 8208...Hdy 40gr Vmax.
2019-12-09 18.16.31.jpg

Had one do this & not fire...but rechambered it & it fired ok second time... ( :unknown: )
2019-12-09 18.14.05.jpg

Same case-different angle...
2019-12-09 18.14.40.jpg


Dont feel hot loads, & they are not hot according to ADI-well they're getting up near the top of their list--although some of the cases were getting on their way to full as they are new & were FL sized down a fair way so they were all the same...

I shot 34gr Nos shots & 40gr Vmax, & its only the low end of ADI list that dont crater like these...

My other 204 doesnt do it but is only shooting a mild load of 2208...

So...should i just try these CCI primers...or do i need to get this bolt/firing pin assembly checked...?

Again, sorry to butt in...dont want to hijack...i just see it pointless to ask the same thing in a different thread...
:)
:drinks:


dont want to hijack neither but are these rounds fireformed and neck sized or flsed Stix :unknown:
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Re: Cratering Primers - Used HOWA 1500

Post by SCJ429 » 10 Dec 2019, 9:17 pm

straightshooter wrote:in2anity
Posts such as yours get many responses so good luck sorting the wheat from the chaff. It is a simple fact that some very experienced gunsmiths are clueless as to the detailed intricacies of the ignition process so your average poster should not feel slighted in offering their suggestions.
Looking at the pictures of your fired rounds the primers still look to be reasonably well rounded so pressures don't seem to be excessive although the Sako rounds might be a little hotter than the ADI.
So the cratering and blanking aren't an exclusive consequence of over pressure.
The explanation for the cratering is rather simple. That is that there is sufficient striker impact to ignite the primer but insufficient momentum or energy to support the primer during the ongoing combustion process to prevent extrusion of the primer cup into the firing pin hole. The sharp edges of the hole are what leads to blanking.
Now your picture of the striker mechanism has a couple of telltales one of which you have noted. The other is the rub marks on the cocking piece.
The culprit could be as simple as a spring coil catching on a burr inside the bolt.
Of the may other possibilities the worst would include a crooked firing pin or a crooked bore inside the bolt. But there are other reasons for misalignment dissipating striker energy.


Is it possible that a majority of Howas suffer from crooked firing pins or bolt bores? Or is the problem around sloppy clearances around the firing pins allowing the primer cup to migrate into this space sometimes enough for the primer cup to fail? The primer cup did not flatten because the surface area of the cup was relieved by the migration of the metal into the firing pin hole.

The easy way to combat the issue is to use thicker primer cups and not to push your pressures. While pressure does not cause the problem, it does make it worse. I am betting that a Trailboss load in this rifle would not result in a blown primer.
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Re: Cratering Primers - Used HOWA 1500

Post by in2anity » 10 Dec 2019, 9:40 pm

5A932AB5-7418-40EC-98BC-3AC574B2D8E1.jpeg
BR4 + 24gr 2206H
5A932AB5-7418-40EC-98BC-3AC574B2D8E1.jpeg (324.95 KiB) Viewed 5541 times


A2598FD1-9473-4134-86AD-C1D53DE2B3E0.jpeg
CCI450 + 24gr 2206H
A2598FD1-9473-4134-86AD-C1D53DE2B3E0.jpeg (291.43 KiB) Viewed 5541 times


As you can see, certainly a harder primer made a difference. However l I installed a replacement FP spring (which btw seemed slightly larger and thicker) yet the 25.5gr loads + CCI400 loads still cratered exactly the same, indicating a sloppy FP hole (not the mainspring). Now I have to decide if I should go to the trouble of re-bushing to better facilitate a softer primer...
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Cratering Primers - Used HOWA 1500

Post by sungazer » 10 Dec 2019, 10:19 pm

My opinion is, that it would seem a firing pin of 0.080 is not suitable to use on SR primers. The bolt face profile and hole size may also be contributing factors. In general a firing pin 0.062 seems to be better suited to SR primers.

As a side note the ADI brass seems to be a bit different around the primer pocket area as opposed to the Hornady.

As we know primers are not a great indication of pressure however they when they do show the right signs you know they are over pressure. In the top picture 3rd case down those edges are starting to flatten out. The bottom case in the second picture between the 223 and Rem looks like an ejector mark. Need to know history of brass to say much about that or what it really looks like in the flesh.

I would stick with these primers all day long much less concerning than those flow back pictures that look like they are on the point of failure. It would be interesting to look at the cup from the other side once removed.
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Re: Cratering Primers - Used HOWA 1500

Post by in2anity » 11 Dec 2019, 7:55 am

SCJ429 wrote:Is you 223 a factory chambering or did they use a tight custom reamer? What speed are your loads producing?


SCJ nah not a custom reamer as far as I know - certainly didn't request one. Not sure about speeds yet - I'll chrono hopefully on Sat.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Cratering Primers - Used HOWA 1500

Post by Stix » 11 Dec 2019, 9:02 am

marksman wrote:quote="Stix"]Hey In2...i hope y'all dont mind if i quietly poke my head in here...
I have a similar problem (not as bad) with a new rifle i shot for first time on weekend...
Figured id throw my pic up here rather than start another thread for the same thing--i hope thats ok... :)
(Need an emoji of a meerkat peering over a rise... :lol: )...

So...these are just Federal primers--it's all ive really ever used...
Shot in a Sako 85 VLS...26.9gr of 8208...Hdy 40gr Vmax.
2019-12-09 18.16.31.jpg

Had one do this & not fire...but rechambered it & it fired ok second time... ( :unknown: )
2019-12-09 18.14.05.jpg

Same case-different angle...
2019-12-09 18.14.40.jpg


Dont feel hot loads, & they are not hot according to ADI-well they're getting up near the top of their list--although some of the cases were getting on their way to full as they are new & were FL sized down a fair way so they were all the same...

I shot 34gr Nos shots & 40gr Vmax, & its only the low end of ADI list that dont crater like these...

My other 204 doesnt do it but is only shooting a mild load of 2208...

So...should i just try these CCI primers...or do i need to get this bolt/firing pin assembly checked...?

Again, sorry to butt in...dont want to hijack...i just see it pointless to ask the same thing in a different thread...
:)
:drinks:


dont want to hijack neither but are these rounds fireformed and neck sized or flsed Stix :unknown:[/quote]
They are formed now marksman
They were new virgin brass fl sized & fired in a virgin rifle.


Most were sized so shoulder was around .002-.0025" short of the chamber...but a few were up to .004" & maybe one or 2 to .005"...so maybe the one misfire was one of them...??...

Maybe i should've made a seperate thread--thought mite be a quick simple answer... :oops:
Last edited by Stix on 11 Dec 2019, 10:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Cratering Primers - Used HOWA 1500

Post by in2anity » 11 Dec 2019, 9:11 am

Stix wrote:Maybe i should've made a seperate thread--thought mite be a quick simple answer... :oops:

All good Stix - after all we are on a public "forum". I have no issues with threads digressing - keeps things interesting, :drinks:
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Cratering Primers - Used HOWA 1500

Post by marksman » 11 Dec 2019, 10:47 am

sungazer wrote:My opinion is, that it would seem a firing pin of 0.080 is not suitable to use on SR primers. The bolt face profile and hole size may also be contributing factors. In general a firing pin 0.062 seems to be better suited to SR primers.


why :unknown:

it is the hole being too large that is the problem, the primer starts to flow into the flash hole gap between the firing pin and the flash hole
there are more howa rifles that dont have a problem with standard factory primers than have
being bushed to the appropriate clearance is all that is needed :drinks:


and ps l think you are onto it Stix :thumbsup:
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Re: Cratering Primers - Used HOWA 1500

Post by Stix » 11 Dec 2019, 1:53 pm

marksman wrote:and ps l think you are onto it Stix :thumbsup:


Can i ask again...what is your opinion of the cratering in my instance though...?
Something to worry about...?... (cases re-chamber fine--primer was definately recessed to case head before firing, now flush)
Should i just try those cci primers...?

Here is the pic again to save going back...
2019-12-09 18.16.31.jpg
Cratering...204/40grVmax/26.9gr 8208/new brass first firing...
2019-12-09 18.16.31.jpg (137.18 KiB) Viewed 4955 times
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Re: Cratering Primers - Used HOWA 1500

Post by Strikey » 11 Dec 2019, 3:03 pm

Can i ask again...what is your opinion of the cratering in my instance though...?
Something to worry about...?... (cases re-chamber fine--primer was definately recessed to case head before firing, now flush)
Should i just try those cci primers...?

Here is the pic again to save going back...
2019-12-09 18.16.31.jpg
[/quote]


Federal primers are known to be " softer " than most other brands, try the CCI BR4's or Remington 7 1/2 primers if you are concerned about that bit of cratering.
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Re: Cratering Primers - Used HOWA 1500

Post by flutch » 11 Dec 2019, 5:28 pm

Strikey wrote:
Federal primers are known to be " softer " than most other brands, try the CCI BR4's or Remington 7 1/2 primers if you are concerned about that bit of cratering.



I use CCI in my howa, none of these issues are present. so give what strikey says a go.
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Re: Cratering Primers - Used HOWA 1500

Post by Stix » 11 Dec 2019, 6:06 pm

Strikey wrote:Federal primers are known to be " softer " than most other brands, try the CCI BR4's or Remington 7 1/2 primers if you are concerned about that bit of cratering.

Thanks Strikey...
To say im "concerned"--well i dont really know what i am really...lol...

It doesnt happen with any other rifle i have, even hot loads ive tried in my other 204--no cratering at all...however there dont seem to be any other signs these are hot other than this cratering.

I got a box each of both the CCI BR4's, & a box of Federal Gold primers today--someone at the shop said those Federal Gold are also a harder cup & worth a try.
So, unless someone here can tell me different &/or share their experience with these Fed Gold primers, i thought id repeat the same test this weekend with the Fed Gold Primers & if no cratering just buy 100 of them...

Those CCI primers sure are expensive...bloody hell...in comparison to the Federalones theyre some 30-40% more expensive--thats the equivalent of getting a free cheap mixer bottle of Scotch thrown in with the Federals... :lol: ...(& cash is very non-existant for me at the moment)...
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Re: Cratering Primers - Used HOWA 1500

Post by sungazer » 11 Dec 2019, 6:30 pm

How much did you pay for them Stix? The Fedral Gold I assume Medal are a very common primer used in the target community. Whow looking at were I normally buy them they have just about doubled since last year. $119 for 1000. is the price I would be looking to beat. I need to buy some in the very near future to.
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Re: Cratering Primers - Used HOWA 1500

Post by Stix » 11 Dec 2019, 7:06 pm

I paid $13.70 for the CCI's, & $9.50 for the Fed Golds...

Obviously cheaper for me if i buy them by the 1000...
From memory just under $120 & $90 respectively, per $1000.

So--got a tip on the primers...should i load both or just start with the Fed Golds...?
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Re: Cratering Primers - Used HOWA 1500

Post by sungazer » 11 Dec 2019, 7:29 pm

I would load up 10 of each and test them. I dont think you will have any problems with the CCI but the Federal is nearly half the price.
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Re: Cratering Primers - Used HOWA 1500

Post by in2anity » 11 Dec 2019, 8:10 pm

What about the CCI450s? They have the harder cup, yet come in under the $10 mark.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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