Copper fouling - how bad ?

[Am88]

If your barrel is not copper fouled, then you don't need to clean the copper out of it, obvious really. Most barrels will be fouled after 100 to 200 rounds, accuracy will be affected. For a factory barrel you may have to clean the copper out more often. If you can see copper streaks in your barrel after cleaning the carbon out, it is time to use copper solvent. No amount of Ballistol is going to get you shooting at peak accuracy again.

If you don't like cleaning your rifle, fair enough, then you have to accept degraded performance.

That was what I got from the interviewer with Krieger as well SCJ, it could be 100-200 rounds or more, he said barrels are like people everyone is different. Quite interesting actually

[Am88]

Got the link for Krieger and another for bartlein barrels. Both the same regarding break-in and cleaning, the words are even said "some copper in the bore is normal" sounds like the old gun smith may know what he is talking about Tassie, as the ones I have heard it from too. Don't over clean.

Krieger
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3d0-FOEpAuw

Bartlein
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rW6SF-jlbkg

[marksman]

"I'm a conspiracy theorist, I reckon some smiths and barrel makers are telling us to clean alot so we wear barrels out quicker and need to buy more barrels it's all about money I sais."

l agree Am88, but you have to have a barrel with a good finish to start with so that it is not fouling like it shouldn't
lMHO coppering is not good

it needs to be said that John Krieger and the bartlein guys in the video's are talking about high quality hand lapped barrels

a quote from Gale Mcmillan
"Posted: 09-25-1999 10:10
The break in fad was started by a fellow I helped get started in the barrel business . He started putting a set of break in instructions in ever barrel he
shipped. One came into the shop to be installed and I read it and the next time I saw him I asked him What was with this break in crap?. His answer
was Mac, My share of the market is about 700 barrels a year. I cater to the target crowd and they shoot a barrel about 3000 rounds before they
change it. If each one uses up 100 rounds of each barrel breaking it in you can figure out how many more barrels I will get to make each year. If you
will stop and think that the barrel doesn't know whether you are cleaning it every shot or every 5 shots and if you are removing all foreign material that
has been deposited in it since the last time you cleaned it what more can you do? When I ship a barrel I send a recommendation with it that you clean it
ever chance you get with a brass brush pushed through it at least 12 times with a good solvent and followed by two and only 2 soft patches. This
means if you are a bench rest shooter you clean ever 7 or 8 rounds . If you are a high power shooter you clean it when you come off the line after 20
rounds. If you follow the fad of cleaning every shot for X amount and every 2 shots for X amount and so on the only thing you are accomplishing is
shortening the life of the barrel by the amount of rounds you shot during this process. I always say Monkey see Monkey do, now I will wait on the
flames but before you write them, Please include what you think is happening inside your barrel during break in that is worth the expense and time you
are spending during break in"

lMHO you need to clean a dirty barrel, but your barrel should shoot many shots before it is dirty,
l did not consider my 17 dirty at 250 shots and it will shoot the first shot off to the left then all shots will be on target till it gets cleaned again
what l believe is that if a barrel needs breaking in when new it has a burr from manufacturing that can only be burnt off by shooting
if a good non fouler older barrel starts to foul it is getting rough and may be at the end of its life or may be able to be brought back with polishing
but not too much polishing as it will have the opposite effect that you are looking for as explained by Dan Lilja
my 22-250 shoots one hole at 200 for 200-300 shots but then will group around 1/2 moa till l polish the throat area with autosol that brings it back to life
l am a hunter not a target shooter, if l were to shoot comp l would do it just like they do for the same reasons they do

[Am88]

Agreed MM I have a feeling I have read that from Gale McMillan before. My .222 Tikka doesn't seem to change much between 2-300 shots, get powder fouling bit I just snake that out, that little rifle has copped a hiding and it's keeps shooting

[MrSavage]

Im concerned at your approach.
Are you using a nylon aluminium brush and not a bronze brush or jag?

Have you read the instructions on some of those solvents that specify that you shouldn't leave the solvent in the barrel for any extended period of time because some are quite aggressive.

Why not give it a taste of some bore paste.
Give it some grey one then the red polishing one .

[TassieTiger]

Im concerned at your approach.
Are you using a nylon aluminium brush and not a bronze brush or jag?

Have you read the instructions on some of those solvents that specify that you shouldn't leave the solvent in the barrel for any extended period of time because some are quite aggressive.

Why not give it a taste of some bore paste.
Give it some grey one then the red polishing one .

Are you referring to sweets in regards to not leaving in barrel? I think that myth was debunked - but regardless, hoppes is meant to be left for extended periods...
I’m using nylon brushes and brass jags.

I got some autosol, on a patch, patch onto a brush, got rod guide in and then realised - I’ve not done this before and then packed up to do some reading re Stix, MM’s comments. I’d rather sneak up on a burr or anomaly than go to far...
Hoping to hit range next week so will see if she RE coppers after a light polish,

[Bill]

I reckon when a lot of these older copper fouling cleaning theories where developed hunters and shooters actually owned fewer rifles and used said rifles more often.

I know I have a quite a few rifles and they get left for 2 or 3 or even more years before getting shot. I do a regular oil for oil my rifles and if its completely clean I also know that its ready to go and I dont need to worry about copper and how many more accurate shots it has left before copper needsre moving. My least used rifle was last fired in 2008 or 2009.

A 9.3x62 thats culled plenty of large critters in the NT, the steel butt plate puts bruises on you like nobodies business

[TassieTiger]

So took my 12 year old daughter To Private range today - she has a lazy right eye that the optometrist has been trying to correct with patches etc on left eye...
Well - how better to exercise her right eye, then shooting through a scope? She had shot .22 maybe 50 times but today was her first time out in 223.
After about 12 shots - she asked to have a shot at a 20c piece taped up on board. It was 150 yards and I videod.
Her first shot high and right....her next shot, I thought I saw silver fly, so we walked up - and I videod as she approached. About 3mm off centre but nailed it - you could not believe the smile. If I could put video up, I would. She was so proud...and an hour earlier was s**ty with me about going up there, wanting to play computer....now - when can we go back, can I try a 10?
Some stills from vid;



On a note to do with this rifle in this thread -.i took up today as well. I had one foiling shot to show daughter how important ears were, I then settled in to shoot a group to see if I’d screwed the accuracy up with the insane cleaning I’d done...150 yards, 58.6gns ar2209 168gn Ballistic tips travelling at 3050fps =

AE1949FC-788B-4287-BA1E-080A268E6EA7.jpeg (1.29 MiB) Viewed 7515 times

[Stix]

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How Dare You...!!

Sitting behind a high power rifle is NO place for a 12 y/o girl...sheesh...you call yourself a man. ..Your a bloody Monster...!!..
(thought id don some clothes that lean left--how do i look...?...lol...)

She's a pretty girl--have you checked your diarry to see where you were when she was conceived...?...lol...

She's also got a one of those smirks that says-just cos i love you doesnt mean you dont look silly Dad...!!...lol...
She already owns that rifle mate...its gone until you get her her own...!...lol


Anyway...with a daughter like that, id move to a smaller island bordered with tall steep cliffs & snipers dens or you wont get much sleep in a few years time...

Good stuff...

Its a shame that rifle was so badly damaged in cleaning it out...ill pm you the dealers details who will get rid of it for you...

[GQshayne]

Better than computering any day. Although experience tells me it would not be cheaper! LOL

[TassieTiger]

Lols. She’s happy and going to make a necklace from her efforts.
Interestingly - rifle has not coppered again after some 15 shots today...maybe, that little bit of autosol...that hectic cleaning schedule...maybe...it’s settled it down. Here’s hoping.

[Am88]

That's good stuff Tassie, I cannot wait for my little fella to be old enough when he can come with me, I actually just bought my wife a Camilla in .223, haven't shot it yet but she's excited to as she really didn't enjoy shooting any of my rifles as the buttplate sits far too high, so we went and tried a Camilla and she loved the feel, nice low butt plate, small grip, short and light, just puttin ideas in ya head .

Good on the copper fouling, you say your using a nylon brush, A lot I've read sais don't even bother with nylon brushes as they are gunna move nothing and to use bronze.

[marksman]

Lols. She’s happy and going to make a necklace from her efforts.
Interestingly - rifle has not coppered again after some 15 shots today...maybe, that little bit of autosol...that hectic cleaning schedule...maybe...it’s settled it down. Here’s hoping.

good to see you have some good news with the coppering Tassie

my young son has a lazy eye, he was also diagnosed as legally blind in his lazy eye, the problem was that his brain was not sending the right signals to his eye, he went through the patching process at 4 yrs of age as well as wearing glasses that blur his good eye, that did straighten his eye but also he got his eyesight back, his eye can still turn at times when he is tired but is a miracle really that it worked for him, it is his dominant eye and he loves nothing more that shooting rabbits at good distances with his 17 ackley, it was earth shattering the first time he could see the carpet and grass properly

the doctors told us that the hard part is getting the kids to keep the patch on but it shows it can be turned around with the patching
l'm glad your daughter is enjoying shooting and good on you for getting her into it

[TassieTiger]

Glad to hear yours has come good MM and sounds very familiar to mine - although loss of vision, is just a horrendous thing to hear of with a child...don’t need to tell anyone, vision is everything - and a child? Yeah...no. (One reason I cant justify airsoft and similar)...eyes and projectiles...my cousin lost her eye years ago from a stick fight.
One of the worst things my girl went through - and I’m sure yours got it as well - was the bull dust from other school yard kids when wearing a patch...
kids argh.
Oh and sauer barrels argh.

I had a really close look at muzzle today and FMD - copper streaks are back - I couldn’t see them in the shade at property.

Would I be right now too;
Get this copper out as previous, clean carbon and then Hit it hard - 30-40 strokes with autosol?

I only did about 5-6 strokes previously, having never performed that process previously. ?

[sungazer]

Did you say you had some KG12 TT? I go after the carbon first with cheap cleaners like windex and Carby cleaner they work well. I will also use some comecial ones like Hoppes or Butches then use sweets or KG12 as needed. I would only use the Autosol or JB paste at say 300-500 round intervals or if really needed. Remedial type cleaning as you had before or a carbon ring. I have a slight one in the top part of the Neck in the Chamber. The gap between the case length and the neck chamber length. A Brass brush can be used with sweets yes a little bit will wear from the brush but it is worth it. Another tip is to really work the sweets fast get it into a lather. Let it sit for 15 min and the clean it out and have another go at it. The chemical can only react so much. KG 12 will show no colour change dont look for it. A different type of chemical reaction is going on.

[TassieTiger]

Hmmm.
I think it’s as MM has said now - there’s a burr or something similar in the barrel. I can’t feel anything and looking into the barrel shows a mirror finish right through so it’s something minor...but significant.

To go from completely clean, to copper streaks in a dozen or so shots - after absolutely cleaning the crap out of it, is not good. Yes - accuracy is there but it will deteriorate.
I don’t mind going through the processes - this is all learning for me, but I don’t want to go too far and I’ve never really used a paste other than a very tentative brush before I went shooting this time.

[sungazer]

For about $100 you could get yourself a Teslong borescope great bit of kit for exactly that sort of purpose you can tell just how much is needed to clean the rifle. No more overdoing it and no more under doing it. They are usb and connect to Android phones or tablets or windows PC. Learning exactly what you are looking at takes a bit of practice.

[TassieTiger]

That would put me even deeper into the “all the gear and no idea” crew...and to be honest, although I googled them previously, I think I’d see stuff and panic over s**t I don’t need too....a little knowledge can be a bad thing - might be a case of I don’t want to know...but...s**t. You have me curious now...argh.
There are you tube clips to learn from....
And friends could borrow it...
s**t. Pass the credit card. Geeeeeeezus.

Update* someone could have warned me our dollar value was in the ****** lol. $110us = $200 au...won’t be holidaying over there lol.

[sungazer]

I already factored in the $ at least when I bought. I bought direct from Teslong it was $50US they have a couple on new models a rigid and a wireless. A rigid wireless would probably be best. The wireless just gives a few more connectivity options, the rigid makes it a bit easier to do 360 twists in the same location. I am happy with the original. It is good for just checking is all the carbon gone laying up against the side of a land? Is there a streak of copper somewhere? I have used it for barrel acceptance when new. It is good to keep track of fire cracking. If you start to experience a accuracy issue you can have a look perhaps a bit of rifling has chipped off.
Just a tool to be used as a confirmation or not. Not really a tool to have a look and make a big decision on by itself. It a tool that helps you understand why. Before they were this quality and price I would never have bought one. I always relied on others with Hawkeyes that are like $1000-2000 range a lot of money for a 2-5 min looksee. But if people justified spending that amount of money on them I think it says something about the potential usefulness that it might one day it may be good for.

I have also used it for checking ears a little warm on the patient again useful putting doubts at rest or identifying a bug in the ear.

[marksman]

Glad to hear yours has come good MM and sounds very familiar to mine - although loss of vision, is just a horrendous thing to hear of with a child...don’t need to tell anyone, vision is everything - and a child? Yeah...no. (One reason I cant justify airsoft and similar)...eyes and projectiles...my cousin lost her eye years ago from a stick fight.
One of the worst things my girl went through - and I’m sure yours got it as well - was the bull dust from other school yard kids when wearing a patch...
kids argh.
Oh and sauer barrels argh.

I had a really close look at muzzle today and FMD - copper streaks are back - I couldn’t see them in the shade at property.

Would I be right now too;
Get this copper out as previous, clean carbon and then Hit it hard - 30-40 strokes with autosol?

I only did about 5-6 strokes previously, having never performed that process previously. ?

l know exactly what you are saying about kids being cruel,
it is really character building and gives you time to have some D&M's with her to give her strategies to help make her life better
she will mature a much nicer person and no what real empathy is, it can be hard to watch but all things do pass

now about the barrel, what l would do is a run in cleaning every time you see copper and once it looks like slowing down polish
you will see it getting easier to clean or l should say "you should see it getting easier to clean"
the bore can be over polished and a burr has to be burnt off

[TassieTiger]

Okay, so this is starting to become a dead set “prick”.

After hours of cleaning all the copper out of this barrel - I managed to squeeze off 5 quick rounds from my crutches today.
Thinking - well, hopefully after all the cleaning and 30/40 strokes of autossol, this barrel would settle down...here’s a pic of muzzle after only 5 shots...disappointing.

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What is the process when this occurs ? I’m spending hours and hours cleaning for 5 mins shooting - if it was not so darn accurate, I’d store it.
Keep shooting / cleaning? Lap more and more? Get some of those sanding / grit projectiles? Leave the copper in it and use it as is? Fill the barrel with ar2209 and...

To do?

[Stix]

Im not sure mate.

Depending on how bad it is...maybe just shoot it for a while...?

A couple of flurries of 10 rounds over 2 mins...then a soaking & scrubbing...?

Or maybe use the intimidation factor...
You lock yourself (as an unhappy authoritarian figure) in a room with the rifle and a dominatrix with a whip...!!!
That ought to help in some way...

Whip it out...!!!

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[marksman]

l an only recommend Tubbs final finish for the barrel Tassie, l would only be really worried if it was not shooting because of it
l take it that you were cleaning for hours with KG 12 you know it shoots so l would be getting stainless match barrel for the future put aside
your a brave man shooting a 300wm with your injury and on crutches mate

Stix your memes are letting everyone know whats on your mind
being single at the moment has to be a b@stard with the 4m rule
maybe play some dressups with a hazmat suit

[TassieTiger]

Its the 06 MM - the 300 is not on my to shoot list for a little while
The KG12 stopped working after a while - very, very strange.
I literally had to use sweets, Hoppes, KG12 one after the other to get the copper out and carbon cleaner in between. Strange as this world we now live in.
There has to be a bur or something in there, tearing the jacket...but my untrained eyes cant see anything.
I will persist, I will get it right lol.

[Stix]

Nah...
Dont even know what that means anymore...

Its been that long the bloody rotor button has rusted onto the dizzy shaft & the oil pump wont even pressurise with a guts full of grease...
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Tassie was asking to be punished by her again in another thread...i figured this as good a place as any.

[marksman]

Nah...
Dont even know what that means anymore...

Its been that long the bloody rotor button has rusted onto the dizzy shaft & the oil pump wont even pressurise with a guts full of grease...
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Tassie was asking to be punished by her again in another thread...i figured this as good a place as any.

if it is a burr Tassie more than likely you wont see it and the only way to remove it is to burn it out by shooting it
l dont think polishing will help until after the burr is gone

[Blr243]

I remember when I bought my first off-road bike for hunting brand new xl185 Honda It had concertina sleeves for keeping s**t and mud out of the front suspension but one time after I returned home from a particular wet muddy trip I got a bee in my bonnet about possible dirt inside my shocks and I could not live with it so I tied the handlebars to the roof of my carport and stripped the lot because I didn’t want one tiny spec of dirt within a kilometre of my front forks. But in hindsight it was just a silly ocd thing ...... I think it’s important you found a fantastic effective copper cleaner and thanks for sharing it’s name ....if you don’t end up being able to lap it or hone it or whatever to the point where it does not quickly attract copper you might want to keep monitoring it and clean the copper out only when or if it reaches a point where accuracy begins to suffer. And your possession of such a good copper cleaner gives you the confidence that u can clean it out if need be ... I’ll bet my dog there are plenty of shooters out there who’s bores don’t foul easily but there shooting 2 moa .... Tass I think your so lucky , because you can shoot a golf ball of the head of a Chinese man with a runny nose at 200 m and I can’t do that .......and 24 yrs later the front forks of my Honda are still totally fine

[sungazer]

When you look in the barrel with your borescope is the copper starting at a particular point? Is in just on one land or all of them? Is the same thing happening for different types of bullets. Make sure you do have the right size. using a different bullet might show that one batch is a different size to another.

[TassieTiger]

Mr Gazer - you have prompted me to get off my bum and fire up the scope...
So the bottom pic is 1 inch inside muzzle, it looks quite heavy and is across all riflings.
Second pic is 4-5 inches further back, again across all riflings.
At half way along bsrrel - it becomes much much lighter, streaky and then 12 inches in - looks clean.
Top photo is from 8 inches in looking out to muzzle.

I can’t see anything that resembles a burr, but as Mm said, I wouldn’t know what I’m looking for, how big is big, etc.

This scope thing is cool as. But I’m too scared to look inside my other rifles now lol.
I’ve only be using zmax 168’s to develop a deer load - 3050fps with 58.6 of 2209 if it helps.

I shoot sst’s in my 300wm and they coppers as well but nothing, like this...
That being said - it has been one of the most accurate sporters I’ve owned / seen. Maybe above is right? Use it and clean when accuracy drops...it’s my OCD that is hurting lol.

[Madang185]

One of the items that I have noticed is that with non brushing liquids it often takes two applications to get the barrel clean.

The other issue is that I am not sure a barrel has to be pristine clean to shoot well, like people, they are all different.

When storing barrel after shooting we normally use a 50/50 mixture of Hoppes #9 and Penetrene, works on any residual copper and prevents rusting.