Copper fouling - how bad ?

[sungazer]

I already factored in the $ at least when I bought. I bought direct from Teslong it was $50US they have a couple on new models a rigid and a wireless. A rigid wireless would probably be best. The wireless just gives a few more connectivity options, the rigid makes it a bit easier to do 360 twists in the same location. I am happy with the original. It is good for just checking is all the carbon gone laying up against the side of a land? Is there a streak of copper somewhere? I have used it for barrel acceptance when new. It is good to keep track of fire cracking. If you start to experience a accuracy issue you can have a look perhaps a bit of rifling has chipped off.
Just a tool to be used as a confirmation or not. Not really a tool to have a look and make a big decision on by itself. It a tool that helps you understand why. Before they were this quality and price I would never have bought one. I always relied on others with Hawkeyes that are like $1000-2000 range a lot of money for a 2-5 min looksee. But if people justified spending that amount of money on them I think it says something about the potential usefulness that it might one day it may be good for.

I have also used it for checking ears a little warm on the patient again useful putting doubts at rest or identifying a bug in the ear.

[marksman]

Glad to hear yours has come good MM and sounds very familiar to mine - although loss of vision, is just a horrendous thing to hear of with a child...don’t need to tell anyone, vision is everything - and a child? Yeah...no. (One reason I cant justify airsoft and similar)...eyes and projectiles...my cousin lost her eye years ago from a stick fight.
One of the worst things my girl went through - and I’m sure yours got it as well - was the bull dust from other school yard kids when wearing a patch...
kids argh.
Oh and sauer barrels argh.

I had a really close look at muzzle today and FMD - copper streaks are back - I couldn’t see them in the shade at property.

Would I be right now too;
Get this copper out as previous, clean carbon and then Hit it hard - 30-40 strokes with autosol?

I only did about 5-6 strokes previously, having never performed that process previously. ?

l know exactly what you are saying about kids being cruel,
it is really character building and gives you time to have some D&M's with her to give her strategies to help make her life better
she will mature a much nicer person and no what real empathy is, it can be hard to watch but all things do pass

now about the barrel, what l would do is a run in cleaning every time you see copper and once it looks like slowing down polish
you will see it getting easier to clean or l should say "you should see it getting easier to clean"
the bore can be over polished and a burr has to be burnt off

[TassieTiger]

Okay, so this is starting to become a dead set “prick”.

After hours of cleaning all the copper out of this barrel - I managed to squeeze off 5 quick rounds from my crutches today.
Thinking - well, hopefully after all the cleaning and 30/40 strokes of autossol, this barrel would settle down...here’s a pic of muzzle after only 5 shots...disappointing.

C8FECA71-B64C-45D1-B173-EE23A5FFADC3.jpeg (1.4 MiB) Viewed 7302 times

What is the process when this occurs ? I’m spending hours and hours cleaning for 5 mins shooting - if it was not so darn accurate, I’d store it.
Keep shooting / cleaning? Lap more and more? Get some of those sanding / grit projectiles? Leave the copper in it and use it as is? Fill the barrel with ar2209 and...

To do?

[Stix]

Im not sure mate.

Depending on how bad it is...maybe just shoot it for a while...?

A couple of flurries of 10 rounds over 2 mins...then a soaking & scrubbing...?

Or maybe use the intimidation factor...
You lock yourself (as an unhappy authoritarian figure) in a room with the rifle and a dominatrix with a whip...!!!
That ought to help in some way...

Whip it out...!!!

giphy (8).gif (613.12 KiB) Viewed 7287 times

[marksman]

l an only recommend Tubbs final finish for the barrel Tassie, l would only be really worried if it was not shooting because of it
l take it that you were cleaning for hours with KG 12 you know it shoots so l would be getting stainless match barrel for the future put aside
your a brave man shooting a 300wm with your injury and on crutches mate

Stix your memes are letting everyone know whats on your mind
being single at the moment has to be a b@stard with the 4m rule
maybe play some dressups with a hazmat suit

[TassieTiger]

Its the 06 MM - the 300 is not on my to shoot list for a little while
The KG12 stopped working after a while - very, very strange.
I literally had to use sweets, Hoppes, KG12 one after the other to get the copper out and carbon cleaner in between. Strange as this world we now live in.
There has to be a bur or something in there, tearing the jacket...but my untrained eyes cant see anything.
I will persist, I will get it right lol.

[Stix]

Nah...
Dont even know what that means anymore...

Its been that long the bloody rotor button has rusted onto the dizzy shaft & the oil pump wont even pressurise with a guts full of grease...
.
.
.
Tassie was asking to be punished by her again in another thread...i figured this as good a place as any.

[marksman]

Nah...
Dont even know what that means anymore...

Its been that long the bloody rotor button has rusted onto the dizzy shaft & the oil pump wont even pressurise with a guts full of grease...
.
.
.
Tassie was asking to be punished by her again in another thread...i figured this as good a place as any.

if it is a burr Tassie more than likely you wont see it and the only way to remove it is to burn it out by shooting it
l dont think polishing will help until after the burr is gone

[Blr243]

I remember when I bought my first off-road bike for hunting brand new xl185 Honda It had concertina sleeves for keeping s**t and mud out of the front suspension but one time after I returned home from a particular wet muddy trip I got a bee in my bonnet about possible dirt inside my shocks and I could not live with it so I tied the handlebars to the roof of my carport and stripped the lot because I didn’t want one tiny spec of dirt within a kilometre of my front forks. But in hindsight it was just a silly ocd thing ...... I think it’s important you found a fantastic effective copper cleaner and thanks for sharing it’s name ....if you don’t end up being able to lap it or hone it or whatever to the point where it does not quickly attract copper you might want to keep monitoring it and clean the copper out only when or if it reaches a point where accuracy begins to suffer. And your possession of such a good copper cleaner gives you the confidence that u can clean it out if need be ... I’ll bet my dog there are plenty of shooters out there who’s bores don’t foul easily but there shooting 2 moa .... Tass I think your so lucky , because you can shoot a golf ball of the head of a Chinese man with a runny nose at 200 m and I can’t do that .......and 24 yrs later the front forks of my Honda are still totally fine

[sungazer]

When you look in the barrel with your borescope is the copper starting at a particular point? Is in just on one land or all of them? Is the same thing happening for different types of bullets. Make sure you do have the right size. using a different bullet might show that one batch is a different size to another.

[TassieTiger]

Mr Gazer - you have prompted me to get off my bum and fire up the scope...
So the bottom pic is 1 inch inside muzzle, it looks quite heavy and is across all riflings.
Second pic is 4-5 inches further back, again across all riflings.
At half way along bsrrel - it becomes much much lighter, streaky and then 12 inches in - looks clean.
Top photo is from 8 inches in looking out to muzzle.

I can’t see anything that resembles a burr, but as Mm said, I wouldn’t know what I’m looking for, how big is big, etc.

This scope thing is cool as. But I’m too scared to look inside my other rifles now lol.
I’ve only be using zmax 168’s to develop a deer load - 3050fps with 58.6 of 2209 if it helps.

I shoot sst’s in my 300wm and they coppers as well but nothing, like this...
That being said - it has been one of the most accurate sporters I’ve owned / seen. Maybe above is right? Use it and clean when accuracy drops...it’s my OCD that is hurting lol.

[Madang185]

One of the items that I have noticed is that with non brushing liquids it often takes two applications to get the barrel clean.

The other issue is that I am not sure a barrel has to be pristine clean to shoot well, like people, they are all different.

When storing barrel after shooting we normally use a 50/50 mixture of Hoppes #9 and Penetrene, works on any residual copper and prevents rusting.

[TassieTiger]

One of the items that I have noticed is that with non brushing liquids it often takes two applications to get the barrel clean.

The other issue is that I am not sure a barrel has to be pristine clean to shoot well, like people, they are all different.

When storing barrel after shooting we normally use a 50/50 mixture of Hoppes #9 and Penetrene, works on any residual copper and prevents rusting.

Mate - to give you some idea Re cleaning overvthe passed two outings.
I’ve used 1/3 bottle of sweets on patches - maybe 100 wet patches? With nylon brushing soaked as well.
At least 100ml of kg12 - maybe 60 patches. With nylon brushing as well.
200 mls of hoppes soaking over night several times and scrubbing intermittently (I usually put some hoppes in after using the other two - as a pre cleaner I guess).
And carbon cleaner and oil and everything in between....

I’ll just add.
As much as I’m whining about this - it has taught me a lot and continues to do so. I would have never bought a scope if it wasn’t for this issue and sungazers recommendation. I’d have never found kg12 without researching. Etc etc. it’s true that we learn more from our failures...I seem to fail a lot

[sungazer]

Yep that is pretty bad. looks like your fingerprint on the top photo The barrel does have quite a bit of tooling type marks in that last picture if that is not mere fingerprints. Its not really bad chatter type marks like I had in one barrel but not a mirror finish either. The top photo without the mirror on seems to show quite a few parallel type scratch marks but they don't show up as much with the mirror on.

I will go and have a play with my scope on a rifle I got a few weeks ago. I couldnt give any advice based on the photos other than you have a bad copper problem.

With the KG12 I use a Parker Hale Jag I use them for everything actually I like the extra surface area they give. I wrap a bit patch around it that is a loose fit so that all the chemical doesn't get squeezed out. I then run it back and forward a few times and add a few more drops after a few passes. Then I will leave it for 15-30 min a commercial break or two then run a dry patch down and inspect. Repeat the process if necessary.

With sweets I do much the same thing but use a nylon brush loose fitting so it can be worked back and forward I keep topping up the brush until it good and wet. With sweets you use quick back and forth strokes to work it into a lather then again let it sit for 15-30 min dry patch and inspect.

I would then run a brass brush with some Hoppes or Butches and then just a wet patch with Hoppes. I do this as a first step always to remove carbon first so the chemicals can get at any copper if there is any.

Also between changing from one chem to another I will run a patch of carby or brake cleaner down the bore esp if the first chem was oily and then you are going to run KG or sweets it need to be dry and free from oil so the next chem can work.

Check out the Parker Hale jags http://www.midway-australia.com.au/j-de ... 2-caliber/ They are available in nearly all calls not a lot in stock at Midway Aus ATM the Montanna look like a copy of sorts.

[TassieTiger]

I noticed the marks you are referring too - I think it’s reflection back - you’ll see what I mean when you use the LEDs on the cam. It’s a bit weird. The mirror is obviously more accurate as it focuses on a specific point. There are some scratch marks along some riflings but other wise it’s pretty decent compared to my tikka barrels.
I def should try some brake cleaner in between - I have a few bottles...but was worried Re potential residue.
I’ve tried a 264 nylon brush wrapped in patch - soaked to get barrel wet. Other than that - I’ use slotted patch holders. They are pretty loose...compared to brush/patch combo.
I’ll check out the PH sticks.

[Bill]

Bronze brush and Helmar 8000 heavy copper remove would have that barrel clean in 10 patches and no more than 10 passes of the brush

[sungazer]

Bill I have tried and still have 3/4 bottles of the Helmar products they are OK but no miracle cure either.. I think TT has the right products at his disposal. The borescope will be his best friend as he can see when it is clean rather than either keep going beyond what is necessary or not enough. He can then monitor the build up re amount shot as well.
Getting the technique right and the sequence is often just as important and best learnt from your own experimentation as there are just too many experts to keep trying each and every one. do something and have a look for yourself best way of learning with a few helping tips from other thrown in. The products he is using are well regarded by a large number op people jumping onto all the options without a starting point is not going to help.

I would take your Bronze brush tip though a lot of miss information about brass brush use. Just dont try to reverse the direction of them while in the bore.

[Bill]

yeah I know what ya saying sungazer, nylon brush are as useful as tits on a bull. Ive had bore scopes for 20 years and honestly sometimes they only make you feel worse. I havent looked down a bore for quite a few year, sometime it better not to know

[marksman]

Tassie the only thing that will fix that is lapping after you get the copper out
fire lapping with Tubbs final finish IMHO

https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tool ... 12715.aspx

also when using sweets use a bronze or nylon brush, either is as good or bad as the other, no big deal, use fast backward and forward strokes till it foams up white froth then leave it as long as you want without letting it dry off, its when it drys off it can cause damage, just keep going back after an hour and keep doing the same without patching it out, sweets has a chemical reaction with copper and works better used
patch it out after a few times and it should be clean then oil the bore and fire lap

l honestly dont believe you will do any harm but it should clean easier

[Member-Deleted]

G'day Tas,
reading about your copper troubles here got me looking at my CZ. The last range trip 2 weeks ago saw groups go to crap. Looking down the muzzle, I had noticeable copper streaks like yours.

It has fired about 200 rounds total, and like you, I've used Sweets leaving it from anywhere from 15 minutes to 1 hour, and typically got one or two blue patches and then clean ones. I thought I was on top of things.

I bought some Boretech Cu+2 copper remover on Friday on the recommendation of some of the fellas on this site.

2 wet patches then a wet nylon brush, 10-15 vigorous strokes, wait a few minutes, 2 more wet patches then patched out with some Hoppes #9.

Could not believe the junk that came out, on the aluminium jag. It looks clean now. One day soon hopefully, I'll get to see if the accuracy has returned

[TassieTiger]

Bloody hell bbss...that looks familiar and I’ve got chills...AGAIN.
I wouldn’t mind to much if it was settling down - but my last outing I only shot 5 quick ones thru, solely for the purpose of checking copper and it was horrendous.

In another note - here’s a conversation between a friend and me via text Re bore cam photos,

I sent the photos to him.
Him - what the hell is that?
Me - that’s the bore of the 06.
What the hell ? Didn’t you clean that ?
Yeah - the main photos are from half way down the barrel?
Holy crapolo - did you get that from your new scope?
Yeah, cool huh?
Do not ever bring that fuken thing near any of my rifles, for fugs sake, I don’t want to Bloody know!
Lolz.

[marksman]

my teslong borescope was delivered today Tassie so l thought l'd put up a photo to show what a good but used bore looks like

this is my 22-250 ruger factory barrel with over 3000 shots



its a very good barrel, as you can see no ring marks against the way the bullet travels
l can shoot this rifle 200-300 shots before it needs a clean
thanks for the heads up sungazer an awesome bit of kit, very easy to use

[marksman]

l thought l should put up a photo of the bore l shot the Tubbs final finish through
this is an after final finish photo

[TassieTiger]

Bloody hell MM - my kitchen sink isn’t that clean. That’s quite incredible.

[marksman]

that's just how they are Tassie
l have never put a bore scope down them before
they both clean very easily but the second one l shot the tubbs through had got pretty bad before l shot the Tubbs through it
usually taking a few days to clean with scrubbing and soaking after 3-5 shots, it lost precision after that so l could not do any testing
the barrel IMO was knackered and needed replacing before trying the Tubbs

what you need to do is think whether its worth the risk, l took the risk because it was no good as it was
yours is shooting good but fowling

l would have to think about it if it was a shooter but having a look with the teslong l cannot see any damage from using it
l know the throat did not move at all
l do not like barrel that fowl even if they shoot and in the past have usually just replaced them with a decent hand lapped match barrel

something to think about anyway

[marksman]

here's one of what you dont want to see Tassie
heat cracking
still shoots dots but for how long

[RosscoL]

I know this is an old thread but would love to know how TT got on eventually with his copper fouling problem. I was reading this thread and couldn’t believe it. I got a Sauer 100 12 months ago in 7mm-08. It fouled up just like Tassies. I’ve also tried heaps of different cleaning products and procedures with no luck. It shoots Speer 110 TNTs into .25 to .5 groups. Haven’t got the 150gr pills quite that tight yet.
Would love to know if he finally sorted the fouling problem or how he got on as I’d like to try the same.
Any chance Tassie or anyone who knows how he got on could help me out would be great.
Thanks RL

[Larry]

I would give your barrel a clean with JB bore paste. In the hope it would smooth out any imperfections that the copper will get caught up on. Get yourself a $100 Teslong borescope. The only way to really know what is going and how much copper is in the barrel is by using a borescope.

[Bugman]

Copper fouling? Guess it depends on many Big Macs they've eaten.
Sorry, I know it is a serious subject, but I was tempted to stray off the path.

[RosscoL]

Thanks Larry. I’ll have a look to see what I can find at my LGS. I haven’t used a bore past before so will need to find out the correct procedure