Copper fouling - how bad ?

Bolt action rifles, lever action, pump action, self loading rifles and other miscellaneous longarms.

Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by TassieTiger » 20 Feb 2020, 4:28 am

]
I have read through all the posts and this is the first mention of how many shots have been fired in this rifle.
Has the barrel EVER been free of trace copper after cleaning? What break-in procedure did you use with respect to a cleaning regime after however many shots, then repeat, etc., etc? E.G. one shot, clean until no fouling, second shot, repeat, third shot, repeat but only a couple of patches till clean, five (?) shots, repeat, etc, incrementally increasing number of shots until little effort required to clean.
Tell us your regime and we might know where to start with advice.[/quote]

When I first got this rifle in Feb 19, I purchased factory loads for running in.
Shot 4-6 and cleaned/oiled barrel - until 25 shots were down and then thoroughly cleaned after every outing. Copper fouling was light, but present.

Yes, this barrel has been copper free previously, but I have mislead ppl saying it’s only done 100 shots - as going back through notes, there were some 110 shots of load development in Feb, March, April, and a few more intermittently after that confirming point of sim with new scopes. That and plus almost 50 shots undertaken the other day by me and others (heat may have been a factor with this build up - but we let it cool after 6-8 shots every time.)
I recall putting this rifle away clean some 6+ months ago, previous to shooting the other day - and a friend thought it might have been rust more so than copper, but I disagree - as I can clean the exact same streaks out of my other rifles. Unless I missed the streaking...but I’m confident I checked when cleaning, previous to storage.
50 shots in a single session with a sport barrel is a few but I can do the same with tikka 260 and hardly see any colour at all - that scrubs clean easily with sweets. The howa 300 colours up, but is easily cleaned and that rifle is relatively newish, load development is just being finalised, the steyr medium barrel just doesn’t seem to colour anymore.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by wanneroo » 20 Feb 2020, 5:27 am

Well you can also trying some of the powders like the CFE powders that minimize or erase copper fouling.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by TassieTiger » 20 Feb 2020, 5:59 am

Stupid idea - but I recall coke ripping copper off 1c coins hmmm lol
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by marksman » 20 Feb 2020, 7:21 am

heres a link that explains a bit about bore fouling and another link that shows how to use an electric cleaner, l have no experience with these but have thought about it
if l were to use the electric cleaner l would definitely only be using it once and l would be polishing the bore afterward,
but l would expect you to polish the bore once you get it clean anyway
https://www.shootingsoftware.com/fouling.htm
https://www.firearmstalk.com/threads/ma ... kit.31091/

and mchughcb put up some very interesting short vids he did on using kg12
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soFJxb4 ... e=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=315vYZG ... e=youtu.be
https://www.coretacsolutions.com/produc ... 2_TEST.htm
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by Am88 » 20 Feb 2020, 7:24 am

I don't know bugger all about this stuff, but if it's shooting really well, there appears to be no issue, my .222 Tikka has the same staining it seems, I only clean it with #9 Hoppe's, and it's never shot any different and I'm up to about 3500 rounds or so now out of it. This is my gun I use to cull roos, sometime 100-150shots a night, in winter, you might get to 40 to 50 rounds before feeling it needs a quick run through, but in summer, sometimes after 20 to 30. This is a work gun, and I use the dirty old bore snake :lol: couple of pulls with it and number 9 and away we go. Then I'll give it a scrub with a brush and #9 when home. And this isn't #9 benchrest copper remover, just plain ol #9.

I told you that to tell you this, a while ago I got the notion and started reading about this cleaning stuff, i got real paranoid and went and bought this bore tech stuff to remove all the copper that was surely jammed in my barrel after 2000 rounds of me neglecting it. It did bugger all, couple of blue patches, so I did it again, clean patches with a slight blue tinge, hmmm so got some sweets I had lying around, same result clean, so....... That was the last time I did it :lol: haven't used anything other then the snake in the field and scrub when home method since, and the gun shoots exactly the same, and it shoots bloody well.

Cheers
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by TassieTiger » 20 Feb 2020, 8:17 am

Thanks MM - that kg looks serious stuff. Not sure on elec but I am getting worried about over doing this as it is...
AM, this is kind of what the gun smith was saying as well, which completely through me. But - I have to believe the smithy was fobbing me off and there are much more experienced and knowledgeable ppl than me saying - get it out...but it’s like it’s electroplated on mine lol.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by Am88 » 20 Feb 2020, 8:50 am

I know what your saying, that was just an experience I have had, and I've been told the same things by by a couple of gunsmiths too, I have never had a problem however just doing what I do now.

I also have seen a gunsmith (allegedly) talk about people not knowing the difference between copper conditioning, and copper fouling, have read a few articles on it aswell.

I remember once and old gentlemen talking to me at a trap shoot, I was new to the game and I asked him what the easiest chemical is to get the was plastic out of the barrels and choke tubes, he looked and me funny and said "it's only a piece of steel, I use petrol" I never got the plastic fouling out of the barrel and chokes so easy, been using petrol for years. He's right, it's only a piece of steel.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by Stix » 20 Feb 2020, 12:43 pm

:wtf:

Who's this... :shock: :unknown: ...

Just who the hell is this...?... :unknown: :o

Back from extinction... :unknown:
Or just another ghost wandering the halls from van diemen's land... :lol:

How for art thouwh... :)

Look...i havent read anything here yet...so forgive me coming in saying potentially silly stuff after what is most likely very sound, & much better advice than this...

But my old 22-250 was never cleaned properly, & it took months to rid the copper from the old bore...

I found doing it on the range helped most...in short, shooting it to generate heat greatly increased the amount of copper i could remove with each soaking scrub...and in the end i did it with a nylon brush...
Shoot couple rounds...quickly patch out carbon...soak with copper solvent & agitate a lot with nylon brush, more solvent, more agitation...let sit for a minute...patch out with a dry patch, then soak onther patch or 2 & push em through, then repeat...then clean out solvent, dry, air dry, then shoot & repeat again.

I would finish by going home with a warm wet bore full of agitated solvent to continue at home...

By the time the copper was gone, so was the accuracy... :roll:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhzzAUaOzsk
:lol:
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by GQshayne » 20 Feb 2020, 7:25 pm

Well if you read my .17 thread, you will know that you are waaay short of the time taken to clean my M55. Days and days of cleaning, hundreds of patches and worn out brushes. But in the end, it was clean.

I would follow the cleaning method for when you suspect you have layering. If when using a specialist copper remover you get a clean patch, then switch back to a carbon remover. When the patches from the carbon remover come out clean, switch back to the copper solvent. I found doing this that I would immediately get more copper out. Layers of copper can be trapped under layers of carbon. In between solvents I gave Autosol a few goes too.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by TassieTiger » 20 Feb 2020, 7:53 pm

Stix wrote::wtf:

Who's this... :shock: :unknown: ...

Just who the hell is this...?... :unknown: :o

Back from extinction... :unknown:
Or just another ghost wandering the halls from van diemen's land... :lol:

How for art thouwh... :)

Look...i havent read anything here yet...so forgive me coming in saying potentially silly stuff after what is most likely very sound, & much better advice than this...

But my old 22-250 was never cleaned properly, & it took months to rid the copper from the old bore...

I found doing it on the range helped most...in short, shooting it to generate heat greatly increased the amount of copper i could remove with each soaking scrub...and in the end i did it with a nylon brush...
Shoot couple rounds...quickly patch out carbon...soak with copper solvent & agitate a lot with nylon brush, more solvent, more agitation...let sit for a minute...patch out with a dry patch, then soak onther patch or 2 & push em through, then repeat...then clean out solvent, dry, air dry, then shoot & repeat again.

I would finish by going home with a warm wet bore full of agitated solvent to continue at home...

By the time the copper was gone, so was the accuracy... :roll:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhzzAUaOzsk
:lol:
:drinks:


:drinks: thanks for the warm welcome ole mate. I emailed you today re a couple things. Never rains lol.

Yes - I had to do the family concentrate thing for a while but I’m back to soak up knowledge and antagonise some others, with Tassie devils sarcasm - as per usual. :friends:
Ps - I’ll package up that little thing this weekend. Best get some Panadol ready :-)
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by TassieTiger » 20 Feb 2020, 7:58 pm

Am88 wrote:I know what your saying, that was just an experience I have had, and I've been told the same things by by a couple of gunsmiths too, I have never had a problem however just doing what I do now.

I also have seen a gunsmith (allegedly) talk about people not knowing the difference between copper conditioning, and copper fouling, have read a few articles on it aswell.

I remember once and old gentlemen talking to me at a trap shoot, I was new to the game and I asked him what the easiest chemical is to get the was plastic out of the barrels and choke tubes, he looked and me funny and said "it's only a piece of steel, I use petrol" I never got the plastic fouling out of the barrel and chokes so easy, been using petrol for years. He's right, it's only a piece of steel.


It’s interesting hearing these stories. I went into the northern Tas gun shop today - described what I had tried and showed the photos. No less than 3 ppl came over and all said the same thing - according to them, some barrels will foul, (condition?) and I’ll go more damage chasing it out than leaving it in...but again, I strongly respect a no of opinions on here, who have a lot more experience-so...i lol keep working on it.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by TassieTiger » 20 Feb 2020, 8:05 pm

GQshayne wrote:Well if you read my .17 thread, you will know that you are waaay short of the time taken to clean my M55. Days and days of cleaning, hundreds of patches and worn out brushes. But in the end, it was clean.

I would follow the cleaning method for when you suspect you have layering. If when using a specialist copper remover you get a clean patch, then switch back to a carbon remover. When the patches from the carbon remover come out clean, switch back to the copper solvent. I found doing this that I would immediately get more copper out. Layers of copper can be trapped under layers of carbon. In between solvents I gave Autosol a few goes too.


I did read you entire thread - the difference (I hope) is that you were removing years of negligence worth thousands of shots, where I’m trying to remove a single (albeit a lengthy one) shooting session and the barrel hadn’t had that many shots in total - records showing under 250.

But I did pinch a couple ideas - and as stock has also touched on, heating the barrel up, might be an answer...I feel that something like this will provide a breakthrough...but, after that - if it coppers up again next shoot - I’ll do exactly as MM has suggested re autosol to try and calm it down. My worry is that at present, it’s 1/2 moa - is like to keep that quality if I can...if I can’t, well it’s been a learning experience and I’ll plink away and rebarrel if and when.
Cheers. :drinks:
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by wanneroo » 21 Feb 2020, 11:50 am

I'm thinking ramming that rod in there hundreds of times over and over again is going to do more damage than a bit of copper.

I like the Swiss methodology. They use a grease called Waffenfett and when they finish shooting they run a patch of Waffenfett through the hot bore. When they get home they run more Waffenfett through the bore, some dry patches to clean it up and then run a patch of Waffenfett through for storage. Before shooting again they run a wet patch through to get the old grease and then shoot. I have an 84 year old Swiss K31 with a pristine bore.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by TassieTiger » 21 Feb 2020, 7:53 pm

Bit of an update...
So gave the boretech carbon remover a go this afternoon - saturated barrel, scrubbed 20 times, left 10 mins, then patched out - hardly anything came out at all on patch.
I then soaked 3 patches in sweets copper remover and saturated barrel, then soaked a nylon brush in same and scrubbed back and forth maybe 20 times then wet patches again and left for 45 mins.
Below is 2 patches that came out...1st one light tinge, 2nd one - almost clean...but streaks are still exactly as they were....what the actual...F.



I’ve now heated Barrel with hot water and soaking hoppes for 24 hours to see if that does anything...
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by SCJ429 » 21 Feb 2020, 8:41 pm

No point using Boretec Carbon cleaner to try and dissolve copper, try Cu+.

I have found Hoppes copper cleaner totally ineffective and I would not waste my time with it.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by TassieTiger » 21 Feb 2020, 8:58 pm

SCJ429 wrote:No point using Boretec Carbon cleaner to try and dissolve copper, try Cu+.

I have found Hoppes copper cleaner totally ineffective and I would not waste my time with it.


Boretech carbon was a suggestion from a second gun shop - their thinking that the cu was being somehow protected by a layer of carbon. Clearly not. But hey - just another $50....
Not confident using anything else other than hoppes over a 24 hour period...if that doesn’t work - I’ll shoot the hottest fuggen 06 loads I can and rebarrel with something decent.

Sweets is CLEARLY not working.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by SCJ429 » 21 Feb 2020, 9:22 pm

There was a fella on here saying how great KG12 is as a copper solvent, which I thought was fantastic until Solarpack pointed out it contained Cyanide, which put me off frankly. You could try it but please don't get it on your skin.

I had a Weatherby MK5 which had the worst copper fouling barrel on the planet. I just pushed a patch up the muzzle and then dripped solvent into it, then cleaned it after a soak, days later I finally got it clean. I used Pro Shot solvent then but Boretec would work faster.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by SCJ429 » 21 Feb 2020, 9:26 pm

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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by GQshayne » 21 Feb 2020, 9:27 pm

Hmmmm……………

Get yourself a cotton bud, dip it in the Sweets and dab it in the end of the barrel, and see what you get. Is Sweets the only copper remover you have?? No good reason for it, but I tried a couple of options when things were puzzling me. I found the Boretech copper remover works well.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by TassieTiger » 22 Feb 2020, 9:49 am

Hmmmm is ****** right mate...so get this.

Last night, after using boretech carbon - I syringed 10mls of hoppes no9 into barrel and then about 5 wet patches to soak. I tilted rifle on an angle, blocked the nozzle with a piece of a mop brush...and left it.

12 hours later...
The first 3 patches are as per this pic...no blue, hardly any carbon, almost white.
E4D0B089-A48F-47F6-81A4-497AAE71417F.jpeg
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So then, I took rifle to window and FMD and knock me over with a feather.
ALL - I mean ALL of the copper is gone as per pics...
E4D0B089-A48F-47F6-81A4-497AAE71417F.jpeg
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I am one very bloody confused Tiger...if someone from the forum took pity on me, flew down and broke in, cleaned rifle for me - say hello next time ya radgie.

This makes zero sense...but...it’s clean. I’ve tried 4 different solvents, various practices and the one cleaner that is known to be less than mild ends up removing the cu, with no scrubbing, no patching...wtf...where has it gone? It can’t dissolve to nothing...

I’ll now monitor next shooting and as soon as streaks appear, I’ll stop - and take on MMS advice re autosol...but kinda hoping this insane cleaning practice has knocked down a few bumps.
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Tikka .260 (Z5 5x25/52)
Steyr Pro Varmint .223 - VX 3
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22 (vtex 4-12, bush 3-9)
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
Adler a110 reddot
Sauer 30-06 - VX 3
Howa 300 win mag. SHV 5-20/56
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by Stix » 22 Feb 2020, 10:00 am

No...!!

Polish it now man...!!!

No point waiting for it happen again, just to convince yourself of how painful the excercise was the first time... :unknown:

Rod...nylon brush...patch covered in autosol...strokes...now...!!
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by marksman » 22 Feb 2020, 10:01 am

push a tight patch down the bore slowly feeling for differences in the bores surface Tassie
if you come to a gritty feel after a smooth push thats where you need to be polishing, still polish the whole bore though
but if it feels the same all the way IMO there is a burr that can only be burnt out by firing
that's where you will need to do a run in by keeping an eye on the muzzle for copper and cleaning when you do see it

good to see a nice clean bore :drinks:

edit: Stix is right yea get into it :drinks:
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by TassieTiger » 22 Feb 2020, 10:13 am

Okay gents. Noted and thanks for advice. Supercheap will be attended today for the obligatory paste.
Side note - any ideas on how this may have cleaned itself?
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by GQshayne » 23 Feb 2020, 7:41 pm

The obvious answer it that it has not cleaned itself - you have cleaned it.

Act of God maybe? :unknown:
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by TassieTiger » 23 Feb 2020, 9:10 pm

When I planned to leave some solvent in for a night, it was always going to be the known weakest solvent I had.
When the hoppes no 9 went in - there were streaks like this. (Note - I’ve never managed to get any copper out with hoppes from another rifle - sweets, belcey and chambers - yes)...no one I know, rates hoppes no 9 as a solvent...no one personally, no one on the board.

4812D875-93AC-4630-BB5D-ECD5A8E1F55B.jpeg
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I am wondering if the boretech carbon cleaner didn’t clean out an invisible to naked eye covering over the copper, that allowed solvent to finally attack...I don’t guttenheimen know. It’s strange and weird but it’s done,
Tikka .260 (Z5 5x25/52)
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ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by GQshayne » 23 Feb 2020, 9:46 pm

I am convinced that I had layering in my .17, the signs from cleaning were quite obvious when switching between solvent types.

Not a new rifle like yours of course, however I wonder if you have had the same. I have used the Hoppes No 9 foaming cleaner as one of the numerous things I tried, and I did not find it did much for copper, but for carbon it worked as well as other stuff.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by KMA » 23 Feb 2020, 10:15 pm

If it aint broke dont fix it.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by Tank » 24 Feb 2020, 9:03 am

wanneroo wrote:I'm thinking ramming that rod in there hundreds of times over and over again is going to do more damage than a bit of copper.

I like the Swiss methodology. They use a grease called Waffenfett and when they finish shooting they run a patch of Waffenfett through the hot bore. When they get home they run more Waffenfett through the bore, some dry patches to clean it up and then run a patch of Waffenfett through for storage. Before shooting again they run a wet patch through to get the old grease and then shoot. I have an 84 year old Swiss K31 with a pristine bore.


+1 Wanneroo.

The enemy of good enough is ‘perfection’....

My 2 cents.

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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by Tank » 24 Feb 2020, 9:06 am

TassieTiger wrote:When I planned to leave some solvent in for a night, it was always going to be the known weakest solvent I had.
When the hoppes no 9 went in - there were streaks like this. (Note - I’ve never managed to get any copper out with hoppes from another rifle - sweets, belcey and chambers - yes)...no one I know, rates hoppes no 9 as a solvent...no one personally, no one on the board.

4812D875-93AC-4630-BB5D-ECD5A8E1F55B.jpeg


I am wondering if the boretech carbon cleaner didn’t clean out an invisible to naked eye covering over the copper, that allowed solvent to finally attack...I don’t guttenheimen know. It’s strange and weird but it’s done,


I’m your huckleberry.....never used anything but Hoppe’s No9 and/or Balistol.....quite frankly. Never had need of anything else.
Regs,
Tank.
Keep calm......and hold centre of mass.
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Tank
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South Australia

Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by Tilb004 » 24 Feb 2020, 2:56 pm

Hey tassie

Have a look on YouTube for
Markandsamafterwork.
He's a long range shooter and very knowledgable guy.
Watch his cleaning techniques , food for thought .
My 2cents

Tilbs
Tilb004
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Western Australia

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