Copper fouling - how bad ?

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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by wanneroo » 21 Feb 2020, 11:50 am

I'm thinking ramming that rod in there hundreds of times over and over again is going to do more damage than a bit of copper.

I like the Swiss methodology. They use a grease called Waffenfett and when they finish shooting they run a patch of Waffenfett through the hot bore. When they get home they run more Waffenfett through the bore, some dry patches to clean it up and then run a patch of Waffenfett through for storage. Before shooting again they run a wet patch through to get the old grease and then shoot. I have an 84 year old Swiss K31 with a pristine bore.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by TassieTiger » 21 Feb 2020, 7:53 pm

Bit of an update...
So gave the boretech carbon remover a go this afternoon - saturated barrel, scrubbed 20 times, left 10 mins, then patched out - hardly anything came out at all on patch.
I then soaked 3 patches in sweets copper remover and saturated barrel, then soaked a nylon brush in same and scrubbed back and forth maybe 20 times then wet patches again and left for 45 mins.
Below is 2 patches that came out...1st one light tinge, 2nd one - almost clean...but streaks are still exactly as they were....what the actual...F.



I’ve now heated Barrel with hot water and soaking hoppes for 24 hours to see if that does anything...
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90594D41-1079-4183-A403-984D9FAB7D21.jpeg
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by SCJ429 » 21 Feb 2020, 8:41 pm

No point using Boretec Carbon cleaner to try and dissolve copper, try Cu+.

I have found Hoppes copper cleaner totally ineffective and I would not waste my time with it.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by TassieTiger » 21 Feb 2020, 8:58 pm

SCJ429 wrote:No point using Boretec Carbon cleaner to try and dissolve copper, try Cu+.

I have found Hoppes copper cleaner totally ineffective and I would not waste my time with it.


Boretech carbon was a suggestion from a second gun shop - their thinking that the cu was being somehow protected by a layer of carbon. Clearly not. But hey - just another $50....
Not confident using anything else other than hoppes over a 24 hour period...if that doesn’t work - I’ll shoot the hottest fuggen 06 loads I can and rebarrel with something decent.

Sweets is CLEARLY not working.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by SCJ429 » 21 Feb 2020, 9:22 pm

There was a fella on here saying how great KG12 is as a copper solvent, which I thought was fantastic until Solarpack pointed out it contained Cyanide, which put me off frankly. You could try it but please don't get it on your skin.

I had a Weatherby MK5 which had the worst copper fouling barrel on the planet. I just pushed a patch up the muzzle and then dripped solvent into it, then cleaned it after a soak, days later I finally got it clean. I used Pro Shot solvent then but Boretec would work faster.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by SCJ429 » 21 Feb 2020, 9:26 pm

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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by GQshayne » 21 Feb 2020, 9:27 pm

Hmmmm……………

Get yourself a cotton bud, dip it in the Sweets and dab it in the end of the barrel, and see what you get. Is Sweets the only copper remover you have?? No good reason for it, but I tried a couple of options when things were puzzling me. I found the Boretech copper remover works well.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by TassieTiger » 22 Feb 2020, 9:49 am

Hmmmm is ****** right mate...so get this.

Last night, after using boretech carbon - I syringed 10mls of hoppes no9 into barrel and then about 5 wet patches to soak. I tilted rifle on an angle, blocked the nozzle with a piece of a mop brush...and left it.

12 hours later...
The first 3 patches are as per this pic...no blue, hardly any carbon, almost white.
E4D0B089-A48F-47F6-81A4-497AAE71417F.jpeg
E4D0B089-A48F-47F6-81A4-497AAE71417F.jpeg (2.26 MiB) Viewed 1977 times


So then, I took rifle to window and FMD and knock me over with a feather.
ALL - I mean ALL of the copper is gone as per pics...
E4D0B089-A48F-47F6-81A4-497AAE71417F.jpeg
E4D0B089-A48F-47F6-81A4-497AAE71417F.jpeg (2.26 MiB) Viewed 1977 times


I am one very bloody confused Tiger...if someone from the forum took pity on me, flew down and broke in, cleaned rifle for me - say hello next time ya radgie.

This makes zero sense...but...it’s clean. I’ve tried 4 different solvents, various practices and the one cleaner that is known to be less than mild ends up removing the cu, with no scrubbing, no patching...wtf...where has it gone? It can’t dissolve to nothing...

I’ll now monitor next shooting and as soon as streaks appear, I’ll stop - and take on MMS advice re autosol...but kinda hoping this insane cleaning practice has knocked down a few bumps.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by Stix » 22 Feb 2020, 10:00 am

No...!!

Polish it now man...!!!

No point waiting for it happen again, just to convince yourself of how painful the excercise was the first time... :unknown:

Rod...nylon brush...patch covered in autosol...strokes...now...!!
The man who knows everything, doesnt really know everything...he's just stopped learning...
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by marksman » 22 Feb 2020, 10:01 am

push a tight patch down the bore slowly feeling for differences in the bores surface Tassie
if you come to a gritty feel after a smooth push thats where you need to be polishing, still polish the whole bore though
but if it feels the same all the way IMO there is a burr that can only be burnt out by firing
that's where you will need to do a run in by keeping an eye on the muzzle for copper and cleaning when you do see it

good to see a nice clean bore :drinks:

edit: Stix is right yea get into it :drinks:
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by TassieTiger » 22 Feb 2020, 10:13 am

Okay gents. Noted and thanks for advice. Supercheap will be attended today for the obligatory paste.
Side note - any ideas on how this may have cleaned itself?
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by GQshayne » 23 Feb 2020, 7:41 pm

The obvious answer it that it has not cleaned itself - you have cleaned it.

Act of God maybe? :unknown:
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by TassieTiger » 23 Feb 2020, 9:10 pm

When I planned to leave some solvent in for a night, it was always going to be the known weakest solvent I had.
When the hoppes no 9 went in - there were streaks like this. (Note - I’ve never managed to get any copper out with hoppes from another rifle - sweets, belcey and chambers - yes)...no one I know, rates hoppes no 9 as a solvent...no one personally, no one on the board.

4812D875-93AC-4630-BB5D-ECD5A8E1F55B.jpeg
4812D875-93AC-4630-BB5D-ECD5A8E1F55B.jpeg (1.42 MiB) Viewed 1933 times


I am wondering if the boretech carbon cleaner didn’t clean out an invisible to naked eye covering over the copper, that allowed solvent to finally attack...I don’t guttenheimen know. It’s strange and weird but it’s done,
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by GQshayne » 23 Feb 2020, 9:46 pm

I am convinced that I had layering in my .17, the signs from cleaning were quite obvious when switching between solvent types.

Not a new rifle like yours of course, however I wonder if you have had the same. I have used the Hoppes No 9 foaming cleaner as one of the numerous things I tried, and I did not find it did much for copper, but for carbon it worked as well as other stuff.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by KMA » 23 Feb 2020, 10:15 pm

If it aint broke dont fix it.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by Tank » 24 Feb 2020, 9:03 am

wanneroo wrote:I'm thinking ramming that rod in there hundreds of times over and over again is going to do more damage than a bit of copper.

I like the Swiss methodology. They use a grease called Waffenfett and when they finish shooting they run a patch of Waffenfett through the hot bore. When they get home they run more Waffenfett through the bore, some dry patches to clean it up and then run a patch of Waffenfett through for storage. Before shooting again they run a wet patch through to get the old grease and then shoot. I have an 84 year old Swiss K31 with a pristine bore.


+1 Wanneroo.

The enemy of good enough is ‘perfection’....

My 2 cents.

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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by Tank » 24 Feb 2020, 9:06 am

TassieTiger wrote:When I planned to leave some solvent in for a night, it was always going to be the known weakest solvent I had.
When the hoppes no 9 went in - there were streaks like this. (Note - I’ve never managed to get any copper out with hoppes from another rifle - sweets, belcey and chambers - yes)...no one I know, rates hoppes no 9 as a solvent...no one personally, no one on the board.

4812D875-93AC-4630-BB5D-ECD5A8E1F55B.jpeg


I am wondering if the boretech carbon cleaner didn’t clean out an invisible to naked eye covering over the copper, that allowed solvent to finally attack...I don’t guttenheimen know. It’s strange and weird but it’s done,


I’m your huckleberry.....never used anything but Hoppe’s No9 and/or Balistol.....quite frankly. Never had need of anything else.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by Tilb004 » 24 Feb 2020, 2:56 pm

Hey tassie

Have a look on YouTube for
Markandsamafterwork.
He's a long range shooter and very knowledgable guy.
Watch his cleaning techniques , food for thought .
My 2cents

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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by SCJ429 » 24 Feb 2020, 6:21 pm

Dan Lilja has a different view, you need to judge who may know a little more about the subject.

https://riflebarrels.com/support/center ... intenance/
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by TassieTiger » 24 Feb 2020, 6:32 pm

I’m your huckleberry.....never used anything but Hoppe’s No9 and/or Balistol.....quite frankly. Never had need of anything else.
Regs,
Tank.[/quote]

Did you type that with a western accent ? Lol. I have other firearms that sweets works on and hoppes doesn’t. Think it depends on barrel quality. But - how did hoppes work when it wasn’t really in contact and doesn’t have ammonia or other gaseous etching type capability...
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by TassieTiger » 24 Feb 2020, 6:34 pm

Tilb004 wrote:Hey tassie

Have a look on YouTube for
Markandsamafterwork.
He's a long range shooter and very knowledgable guy.
Watch his cleaning techniques , food for thought .
My 2cents

Tilbs


I’m a sub of mark / Sam, fantastic channel, but I think their rifles are a different level / quality, so might not have to work on heavily coppered firearms.
As per SC below, the manufacturers see all levels at the coal face...
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by marksman » 24 Feb 2020, 9:27 pm

markandsam after work are a really good team, and very good long distance shooters
marks cleaning method using ballistol is an old idea and he is trying to get what is called copper equilibrium like sniper 101's methods
but mark is still cleaning his rifles trying to keep his copper in the bore at a certain level where the rifle shoots consistently for the life of the barrel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltpIdTieQT8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KRUAv3Byp4
very interesting stuff indeed

l usually do not clean my bores till they start to shoot off unless l am storing the rifle for a while but l get my bores to a point that they do not over copper
if they are showing copper they are getting rough and when they start to have flyers they are replaced,
that's usually quite a few more shots through them than is suggested for the cartridge but l do not shoot the barrels hot
l cleaned my 17 ackley today for the first time in 250 shots because the other day l missed 5 rabbit heads at 170y in a row
l had knocked my scope and had to adjust it to the right 3 clicks at 100y but thought it was about time l cleaned it, once the zero was set again l didn't miss again
it took 20 minutes to clean spotless, so much for the old theory that 17's copper really bad

anyway this is another paper from Dan Lilja that's worth a read concerning this thread
https://riflebarrels.com/barrel-fouling/

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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by Am88 » 24 Feb 2020, 11:07 pm

marksman wrote:l usually do not clean my bores till they start to shoot off unless l am storing the rifle for a while but l get my bores to a point that they do not over copper


I just watched an interview with Mr Krieger on YouTube, he concurs with this theory, I don't know how to copy and past link on my phone. He said let the barrel tell you what to do, he also said the same thing about break in procedure, he shoots it checks with sweets or C10 I think he said? Ammonia based copper solvents. If it looks good and the patches don't look overly blue he keeps shooting no break in, if it's heavy he will shoot a bit more then check again with the solvent. Also a note that he said alot of barrels are damaged from over cleaning.

I'm a conspiracy theorist, I reckon some smiths and barrel makers are telling us to clean alot so we wear barrels out quicker and need to buy more barrels :lol: it's all about money I sais.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by SCJ429 » 25 Feb 2020, 6:39 am

If your barrel is not copper fouled, then you don't need to clean the copper out of it, obvious really. Most barrels will be fouled after 100 to 200 rounds, accuracy will be affected. For a factory barrel you may have to clean the copper out more often. If you can see copper streaks in your barrel after cleaning the carbon out, it is time to use copper solvent. No amount of Ballistol is going to get you shooting at peak accuracy again.

If you don't like cleaning your rifle, fair enough, then you have to accept degraded performance.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by Am88 » 25 Feb 2020, 7:47 am

SCJ429 wrote:If your barrel is not copper fouled, then you don't need to clean the copper out of it, obvious really. Most barrels will be fouled after 100 to 200 rounds, accuracy will be affected. For a factory barrel you may have to clean the copper out more often. If you can see copper streaks in your barrel after cleaning the carbon out, it is time to use copper solvent. No amount of Ballistol is going to get you shooting at peak accuracy again.

If you don't like cleaning your rifle, fair enough, then you have to accept degraded performance.


That was what I got from the interviewer with Krieger as well SCJ, it could be 100-200 rounds or more, he said barrels are like people everyone is different. Quite interesting actually
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by Am88 » 25 Feb 2020, 9:58 am

Got the link for Krieger and another for bartlein barrels. Both the same regarding break-in and cleaning, the words are even said "some copper in the bore is normal" sounds like the old gun smith may know what he is talking about Tassie, as the ones I have heard it from too. Don't over clean.

Krieger
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3d0-FOEpAuw

Bartlein
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rW6SF-jlbkg
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by marksman » 25 Feb 2020, 11:49 am

"I'm a conspiracy theorist, I reckon some smiths and barrel makers are telling us to clean alot so we wear barrels out quicker and need to buy more barrels :lol: it's all about money I sais."

l agree Am88, but you have to have a barrel with a good finish to start with so that it is not fouling like it shouldn't
lMHO coppering is not good :unknown:

it needs to be said that John Krieger and the bartlein guys in the video's are talking about high quality hand lapped barrels :thumbsup:

a quote from Gale Mcmillan
"Posted: 09-25-1999 10:10
The break in fad was started by a fellow I helped get started in the barrel business . He started putting a set of break in instructions in ever barrel he
shipped. One came into the shop to be installed and I read it and the next time I saw him I asked him What was with this break in crap?. His answer
was Mac, My share of the market is about 700 barrels a year. I cater to the target crowd and they shoot a barrel about 3000 rounds before they
change it. If each one uses up 100 rounds of each barrel breaking it in you can figure out how many more barrels I will get to make each year. If you
will stop and think that the barrel doesn't know whether you are cleaning it every shot or every 5 shots and if you are removing all foreign material that
has been deposited in it since the last time you cleaned it what more can you do? When I ship a barrel I send a recommendation with it that you clean it
ever chance you get with a brass brush pushed through it at least 12 times with a good solvent and followed by two and only 2 soft patches. This
means if you are a bench rest shooter you clean ever 7 or 8 rounds . If you are a high power shooter you clean it when you come off the line after 20
rounds. If you follow the fad of cleaning every shot for X amount and every 2 shots for X amount and so on the only thing you are accomplishing is
shortening the life of the barrel by the amount of rounds you shot during this process. I always say Monkey see Monkey do, now I will wait on the
flames but before you write them, Please include what you think is happening inside your barrel during break in that is worth the expense and time you
are spending during break in"

lMHO you need to clean a dirty barrel, but your barrel should shoot many shots before it is dirty,
l did not consider my 17 dirty at 250 shots and it will shoot the first shot off to the left then all shots will be on target till it gets cleaned again
what l believe is that if a barrel needs breaking in when new it has a burr from manufacturing that can only be burnt off by shooting
if a good non fouler older barrel starts to foul it is getting rough and may be at the end of its life or may be able to be brought back with polishing
but not too much polishing as it will have the opposite effect that you are looking for as explained by Dan Lilja
my 22-250 shoots one hole at 200 for 200-300 shots but then will group around 1/2 moa till l polish the throat area with autosol that brings it back to life
l am a hunter not a target shooter, if l were to shoot comp l would do it just like they do for the same reasons they do :drinks:
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by Am88 » 25 Feb 2020, 3:17 pm

Agreed MM I have a feeling I have read that from Gale McMillan before. My .222 Tikka doesn't seem to change much between 2-300 shots, get powder fouling bit I just snake that out, that little rifle has copped a hiding and it's keeps shooting
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by MrSavage » 28 Feb 2020, 1:31 pm

Im concerned at your approach.
Are you using a nylon aluminium brush and not a bronze brush or jag?

Have you read the instructions on some of those solvents that specify that you shouldn't leave the solvent in the barrel for any extended period of time because some are quite aggressive.

Why not give it a taste of some bore paste.
Give it some grey one then the red polishing one .
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by TassieTiger » 28 Feb 2020, 2:23 pm

MrSavage wrote:Im concerned at your approach.
Are you using a nylon aluminium brush and not a bronze brush or jag?

Have you read the instructions on some of those solvents that specify that you shouldn't leave the solvent in the barrel for any extended period of time because some are quite aggressive.

Why not give it a taste of some bore paste.
Give it some grey one then the red polishing one .


Are you referring to sweets in regards to not leaving in barrel? I think that myth was debunked - but regardless, hoppes is meant to be left for extended periods...
I’m using nylon brushes and brass jags.

I got some autosol, on a patch, patch onto a brush, got rod guide in and then realised - I’ve not done this before and then packed up to do some reading re Stix, MM’s comments. I’d rather sneak up on a burr or anomaly than go to far...
Hoping to hit range next week so will see if she RE coppers after a light polish,
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