Copper fouling - how bad ?

Bolt action rifles, lever action, pump action, self loading rifles and other miscellaneous longarms.

Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by Bill » 29 Feb 2020, 10:02 am

I reckon when a lot of these older copper fouling cleaning theories where developed hunters and shooters actually owned fewer rifles and used said rifles more often.

I know I have a quite a few rifles and they get left for 2 or 3 or even more years before getting shot. I do a regular oil for oil my rifles and if its completely clean I also know that its ready to go and I dont need to worry about copper and how many more accurate shots it has left before copper needsre moving. My least used rifle was last fired in 2008 or 2009.

A 9.3x62 thats culled plenty of large critters in the NT, the steel butt plate puts bruises on you like nobodies business :lol: :drinks:
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by TassieTiger » 29 Feb 2020, 3:10 pm

So took my 12 year old daughter To Private range today - she has a lazy right eye that the optometrist has been trying to correct with patches etc on left eye...
Well - how better to exercise her right eye, then shooting through a scope? She had shot .22 maybe 50 times but today was her first time out in 223.
After about 12 shots - she asked to have a shot at a 20c piece taped up on board. It was 150 yards and I videod.
Her first shot high and right....her next shot, I thought I saw silver fly, so we walked up - and I videod as she approached. About 3mm off centre but nailed it - you could not believe the smile. If I could put video up, I would. She was so proud...and an hour earlier was s**ty with me about going up there, wanting to play computer....now - when can we go back, can I try a 10?
Some stills from vid;



On a note to do with this rifle in this thread -.i took up today as well. I had one foiling shot to show daughter how important ears were, I then settled in to shoot a group to see if I’d screwed the accuracy up with the insane cleaning I’d done...150 yards, 58.6gns ar2209 168gn Ballistic tips travelling at 3050fps =
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by Stix » 29 Feb 2020, 3:42 pm

.
.
How Dare You...!!

Sitting behind a high power rifle is NO place for a 12 y/o girl...sheesh...you call yourself a man. :wtf: ..Your a bloody Monster...!!.. :twisted:
(thought id don some clothes that lean left--how do i look...?...lol...)

She's a pretty girl--have you checked your diarry to see where you were when she was conceived...?...lol...

She's also got a one of those smirks that says-just cos i love you doesnt mean you dont look silly Dad...!!...lol...
She already owns that rifle mate...its gone until you get her her own...!...lol


Anyway...with a daughter like that, id move to a smaller island bordered with tall steep cliffs & snipers dens or you wont get much sleep in a few years time... :lol:

Good stuff... :clap:

Its a shame that rifle was so badly damaged in cleaning it out...ill pm you the dealers details who will get rid of it for you... 8-)
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by GQshayne » 29 Feb 2020, 7:38 pm

Better than computering any day. Although experience tells me it would not be cheaper! LOL
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by TassieTiger » 29 Feb 2020, 9:52 pm

Lols. She’s happy and going to make a necklace from her efforts.
Interestingly - rifle has not coppered again after some 15 shots today...maybe, that little bit of autosol...that hectic cleaning schedule...maybe...it’s settled it down. Here’s hoping.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by Am88 » 01 Mar 2020, 7:45 am

That's good stuff Tassie, I cannot wait for my little fella to be old enough when he can come with me, I actually just bought my wife a Camilla in .223, haven't shot it yet but she's excited to as she really didn't enjoy shooting any of my rifles as the buttplate sits far too high, so we went and tried a Camilla and she loved the feel, nice low butt plate, small grip, short and light, just puttin ideas in ya head :lol:.

Good on the copper fouling, you say your using a nylon brush, A lot I've read sais don't even bother with nylon brushes as they are gunna move nothing and to use bronze.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by marksman » 01 Mar 2020, 7:35 pm

TassieTiger wrote:Lols. She’s happy and going to make a necklace from her efforts.
Interestingly - rifle has not coppered again after some 15 shots today...maybe, that little bit of autosol...that hectic cleaning schedule...maybe...it’s settled it down. Here’s hoping.



good to see you have some good news with the coppering Tassie :thumbsup:

my young son has a lazy eye, he was also diagnosed as legally blind in his lazy eye, the problem was that his brain was not sending the right signals to his eye, he went through the patching process at 4 yrs of age as well as wearing glasses that blur his good eye, that did straighten his eye but also he got his eyesight back, his eye can still turn at times when he is tired but is a miracle really that it worked for him, it is his dominant eye and he loves nothing more that shooting rabbits at good distances with his 17 ackley, it was earth shattering the first time he could see the carpet and grass properly

the doctors told us that the hard part is getting the kids to keep the patch on but it shows it can be turned around with the patching
l'm glad your daughter is enjoying shooting and good on you for getting her into it :drinks:
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by TassieTiger » 02 Mar 2020, 4:20 pm

Glad to hear yours has come good MM and sounds very familiar to mine - although loss of vision, is just a horrendous thing to hear of with a child...don’t need to tell anyone, vision is everything - and a child? Yeah...no. (One reason I cant justify airsoft and similar)...eyes and projectiles...my cousin lost her eye years ago from a stick fight.
One of the worst things my girl went through - and I’m sure yours got it as well - was the bull dust from other school yard kids when wearing a patch...
kids argh.
Oh and sauer barrels argh.

I had a really close look at muzzle today and FMD - copper streaks are back - I couldn’t see them in the shade at property.

Would I be right now too;
Get this copper out as previous, clean carbon and then Hit it hard - 30-40 strokes with autosol?

I only did about 5-6 strokes previously, having never performed that process previously. ?
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by sungazer » 02 Mar 2020, 5:05 pm

Did you say you had some KG12 TT? I go after the carbon first with cheap cleaners like windex and Carby cleaner they work well. I will also use some comecial ones like Hoppes or Butches then use sweets or KG12 as needed. I would only use the Autosol or JB paste at say 300-500 round intervals or if really needed. Remedial type cleaning as you had before or a carbon ring. I have a slight one in the top part of the Neck in the Chamber. The gap between the case length and the neck chamber length. A Brass brush can be used with sweets yes a little bit will wear from the brush but it is worth it. Another tip is to really work the sweets fast get it into a lather. Let it sit for 15 min and the clean it out and have another go at it. The chemical can only react so much. KG 12 will show no colour change dont look for it. A different type of chemical reaction is going on.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by TassieTiger » 02 Mar 2020, 5:39 pm

Hmmm.
I think it’s as MM has said now - there’s a burr or something similar in the barrel. I can’t feel anything and looking into the barrel shows a mirror finish right through so it’s something minor...but significant.

To go from completely clean, to copper streaks in a dozen or so shots - after absolutely cleaning the crap out of it, is not good. Yes - accuracy is there but it will deteriorate.
I don’t mind going through the processes - this is all learning for me, but I don’t want to go too far and I’ve never really used a paste other than a very tentative brush before I went shooting this time.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by sungazer » 02 Mar 2020, 7:06 pm

For about $100 you could get yourself a Teslong borescope great bit of kit for exactly that sort of purpose you can tell just how much is needed to clean the rifle. No more overdoing it and no more under doing it. They are usb and connect to Android phones or tablets or windows PC. Learning exactly what you are looking at takes a bit of practice.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by TassieTiger » 02 Mar 2020, 7:34 pm

That would put me even deeper into the “all the gear and no idea” crew...and to be honest, although I googled them previously, I think I’d see stuff and panic over s**t I don’t need too....a little knowledge can be a bad thing - might be a case of I don’t want to know...but...s**t. You have me curious now...argh.
There are you tube clips to learn from....
And friends could borrow it...
s**t. Pass the credit card. Geeeeeeezus.

Update* someone could have warned me our dollar value was in the ****** lol. $110us = $200 au...won’t be holidaying over there lol.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by sungazer » 02 Mar 2020, 8:30 pm

I already factored in the $ at least when I bought. I bought direct from Teslong it was $50US they have a couple on new models a rigid and a wireless. A rigid wireless would probably be best. The wireless just gives a few more connectivity options, the rigid makes it a bit easier to do 360 twists in the same location. I am happy with the original. It is good for just checking is all the carbon gone laying up against the side of a land? Is there a streak of copper somewhere? I have used it for barrel acceptance when new. It is good to keep track of fire cracking. If you start to experience a accuracy issue you can have a look perhaps a bit of rifling has chipped off.
Just a tool to be used as a confirmation or not. Not really a tool to have a look and make a big decision on by itself. It a tool that helps you understand why. Before they were this quality and price I would never have bought one. I always relied on others with Hawkeyes that are like $1000-2000 range a lot of money for a 2-5 min looksee. But if people justified spending that amount of money on them I think it says something about the potential usefulness that it might one day it may be good for.

I have also used it for checking ears :D a little warm on the patient again useful putting doubts at rest or identifying a bug in the ear.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by marksman » 02 Mar 2020, 9:06 pm

TassieTiger wrote:Glad to hear yours has come good MM and sounds very familiar to mine - although loss of vision, is just a horrendous thing to hear of with a child...don’t need to tell anyone, vision is everything - and a child? Yeah...no. (One reason I cant justify airsoft and similar)...eyes and projectiles...my cousin lost her eye years ago from a stick fight.
One of the worst things my girl went through - and I’m sure yours got it as well - was the bull dust from other school yard kids when wearing a patch...
kids argh.
Oh and sauer barrels argh.

I had a really close look at muzzle today and FMD - copper streaks are back - I couldn’t see them in the shade at property.

Would I be right now too;
Get this copper out as previous, clean carbon and then Hit it hard - 30-40 strokes with autosol?

I only did about 5-6 strokes previously, having never performed that process previously. ?


l know exactly what you are saying about kids being cruel,
it is really character building and gives you time to have some D&M's with her to give her strategies to help make her life better
she will mature a much nicer person and no what real empathy is, it can be hard to watch but all things do pass :thumbsup:

now about the barrel, what l would do is a run in cleaning every time you see copper and once it looks like slowing down polish
you will see it getting easier to clean or l should say "you should see it getting easier to clean"
the bore can be over polished and a burr has to be burnt off :drinks:
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by TassieTiger » 28 Mar 2020, 11:02 pm

Okay, so this is starting to become a dead set “prick”.

After hours of cleaning all the copper out of this barrel - I managed to squeeze off 5 quick rounds from my crutches today.
Thinking - well, hopefully after all the cleaning and 30/40 strokes of autossol, this barrel would settle down...here’s a pic of muzzle after only 5 shots...disappointing.
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What is the process when this occurs ? I’m spending hours and hours cleaning for 5 mins shooting - if it was not so darn accurate, I’d store it.
Keep shooting / cleaning? Lap more and more? Get some of those sanding / grit projectiles? Leave the copper in it and use it as is? Fill the barrel with ar2209 and...

To do?
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by Stix » 29 Mar 2020, 8:48 am

Im not sure mate.

Depending on how bad it is...maybe just shoot it for a while...?

A couple of flurries of 10 rounds over 2 mins...then a soaking & scrubbing...?

Or maybe use the intimidation factor...
You lock yourself (as an unhappy authoritarian figure) in a room with the rifle and a dominatrix with a whip...!!!
That ought to help in some way... 8-)

giphy (8).gif
Whip it out...!!!
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by marksman » 29 Mar 2020, 9:15 am

l an only recommend Tubbs final finish for the barrel Tassie, l would only be really worried if it was not shooting because of it
l take it that you were cleaning for hours with KG 12 :unknown: you know it shoots so l would be getting stainless match barrel for the future put aside
your a brave man shooting a 300wm with your injury and on crutches mate :thumbsup:

Stix your memes are letting everyone know whats on your mind :lol:
being single at the moment has to be a b@stard with the 4m rule :lol:
maybe play some dressups with a hazmat suit :drinks:
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by TassieTiger » 29 Mar 2020, 10:52 am

Its the 06 MM - the 300 is not on my to shoot list for a little while :)
The KG12 stopped working after a while - very, very strange.
I literally had to use sweets, Hoppes, KG12 one after the other to get the copper out and carbon cleaner in between. Strange as this world we now live in.
There has to be a bur or something in there, tearing the jacket...but my untrained eyes cant see anything.
I will persist, I will get it right lol.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by Stix » 29 Mar 2020, 10:57 am

Nah...
Dont even know what that means anymore...

Its been that long the bloody rotor button has rusted onto the dizzy shaft & the oil pump wont even pressurise with a guts full of grease... 8-) :violin:
.
.
.
Tassie was asking to be punished by her again in another thread...i figured this as good a place as any.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by marksman » 29 Mar 2020, 11:45 am

Stix wrote:Nah...
Dont even know what that means anymore...

Its been that long the bloody rotor button has rusted onto the dizzy shaft & the oil pump wont even pressurise with a guts full of grease... 8-) :violin:
.
.
.
Tassie was asking to be punished by her again in another thread...i figured this as good a place as any.


:lol: :clap: :drinks:

if it is a burr Tassie more than likely you wont see it and the only way to remove it is to burn it out by shooting it
l dont think polishing will help until after the burr is gone :unknown:
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by Blr243 » 29 Mar 2020, 11:58 am

I remember when I bought my first off-road bike for hunting brand new xl185 Honda It had concertina sleeves for keeping s**t and mud out of the front suspension but one time after I returned home from a particular wet muddy trip I got a bee in my bonnet about possible dirt inside my shocks and I could not live with it so I tied the handlebars to the roof of my carport and stripped the lot because I didn’t want one tiny spec of dirt within a kilometre of my front forks. But in hindsight it was just a silly ocd thing ...... I think it’s important you found a fantastic effective copper cleaner and thanks for sharing it’s name ....if you don’t end up being able to lap it or hone it or whatever to the point where it does not quickly attract copper you might want to keep monitoring it and clean the copper out only when or if it reaches a point where accuracy begins to suffer. And your possession of such a good copper cleaner gives you the confidence that u can clean it out if need be ... I’ll bet my dog there are plenty of shooters out there who’s bores don’t foul easily but there shooting 2 moa .... Tass I think your so lucky , because you can shoot a golf ball of the head of a Chinese man with a runny nose at 200 m and I can’t do that .......and 24 yrs later the front forks of my Honda are still totally fine
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by sungazer » 29 Mar 2020, 12:05 pm

When you look in the barrel with your borescope is the copper starting at a particular point? Is in just on one land or all of them? Is the same thing happening for different types of bullets. Make sure you do have the right size. using a different bullet might show that one batch is a different size to another.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by TassieTiger » 29 Mar 2020, 1:49 pm

Mr Gazer - you have prompted me to get off my bum and fire up the scope...
So the bottom pic is 1 inch inside muzzle, it looks quite heavy and is across all riflings.
Second pic is 4-5 inches further back, again across all riflings.
At half way along bsrrel - it becomes much much lighter, streaky and then 12 inches in - looks clean.
Top photo is from 8 inches in looking out to muzzle.

I can’t see anything that resembles a burr, but as Mm said, I wouldn’t know what I’m looking for, how big is big, etc.

This scope thing is cool as. But I’m too scared to look inside my other rifles now lol.
I’ve only be using zmax 168’s to develop a deer load - 3050fps with 58.6 of 2209 if it helps.

I shoot sst’s in my 300wm and they coppers as well but nothing, like this...
That being said - it has been one of the most accurate sporters I’ve owned / seen. Maybe above is right? Use it and clean when accuracy drops...it’s my OCD that is hurting lol.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by Madang185 » 29 Mar 2020, 3:31 pm

One of the items that I have noticed is that with non brushing liquids it often takes two applications to get the barrel clean.

The other issue is that I am not sure a barrel has to be pristine clean to shoot well, like people, they are all different.

When storing barrel after shooting we normally use a 50/50 mixture of Hoppes #9 and Penetrene, works on any residual copper and prevents rusting.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by TassieTiger » 29 Mar 2020, 3:49 pm

Madang185 wrote:One of the items that I have noticed is that with non brushing liquids it often takes two applications to get the barrel clean.

The other issue is that I am not sure a barrel has to be pristine clean to shoot well, like people, they are all different.

When storing barrel after shooting we normally use a 50/50 mixture of Hoppes #9 and Penetrene, works on any residual copper and prevents rusting.


Mate - to give you some idea Re cleaning overvthe passed two outings.
I’ve used 1/3 bottle of sweets on patches - maybe 100 wet patches? With nylon brushing soaked as well.
At least 100ml of kg12 - maybe 60 patches. With nylon brushing as well.
200 mls of hoppes soaking over night several times and scrubbing intermittently (I usually put some hoppes in after using the other two - as a pre cleaner I guess).
And carbon cleaner and oil and everything in between....

I’ll just add.
As much as I’m whining about this - it has taught me a lot and continues to do so. I would have never bought a scope if it wasn’t for this issue and sungazers recommendation. I’d have never found kg12 without researching. Etc etc. it’s true that we learn more from our failures...I seem to fail a lot :drinks:
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by sungazer » 29 Mar 2020, 4:27 pm

Yep that is pretty bad. looks like your fingerprint on the top photo :) The barrel does have quite a bit of tooling type marks in that last picture if that is not mere fingerprints. Its not really bad chatter type marks like I had in one barrel but not a mirror finish either. The top photo without the mirror on seems to show quite a few parallel type scratch marks but they don't show up as much with the mirror on.

I will go and have a play with my scope on a rifle I got a few weeks ago. I couldnt give any advice based on the photos other than you have a bad copper problem.

With the KG12 I use a Parker Hale Jag I use them for everything actually I like the extra surface area they give. I wrap a bit patch around it that is a loose fit so that all the chemical doesn't get squeezed out. I then run it back and forward a few times and add a few more drops after a few passes. Then I will leave it for 15-30 min a commercial break or two then run a dry patch down and inspect. Repeat the process if necessary.

With sweets I do much the same thing but use a nylon brush loose fitting so it can be worked back and forward I keep topping up the brush until it good and wet. With sweets you use quick back and forth strokes to work it into a lather then again let it sit for 15-30 min dry patch and inspect.

I would then run a brass brush with some Hoppes or Butches and then just a wet patch with Hoppes. I do this as a first step always to remove carbon first so the chemicals can get at any copper if there is any.

Also between changing from one chem to another I will run a patch of carby or brake cleaner down the bore esp if the first chem was oily and then you are going to run KG or sweets it need to be dry and free from oil so the next chem can work.

Check out the Parker Hale jags http://www.midway-australia.com.au/j-de ... 2-caliber/ They are available in nearly all calls not a lot in stock at Midway Aus ATM the Montanna look like a copy of sorts.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by TassieTiger » 29 Mar 2020, 4:37 pm

I noticed the marks you are referring too - I think it’s reflection back - you’ll see what I mean when you use the LEDs on the cam. It’s a bit weird. The mirror is obviously more accurate as it focuses on a specific point. There are some scratch marks along some riflings but other wise it’s pretty decent compared to my tikka barrels.
I def should try some brake cleaner in between - I have a few bottles...but was worried Re potential residue.
I’ve tried a 264 nylon brush wrapped in patch - soaked to get barrel wet. Other than that - I’ use slotted patch holders. They are pretty loose...compared to brush/patch combo.
I’ll check out the PH sticks.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by Bill » 29 Mar 2020, 5:07 pm

Bronze brush and Helmar 8000 heavy copper remove would have that barrel clean in 10 patches and no more than 10 passes of the brush :drinks:
When a guy is digging his own grave, you don’t fight him for the shovel.

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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by sungazer » 29 Mar 2020, 5:30 pm

Bill I have tried and still have 3/4 bottles of the Helmar products they are OK but no miracle cure either.. I think TT has the right products at his disposal. The borescope will be his best friend as he can see when it is clean rather than either keep going beyond what is necessary or not enough. He can then monitor the build up re amount shot as well.
Getting the technique right and the sequence is often just as important and best learnt from your own experimentation as there are just too many experts to keep trying each and every one. do something and have a look for yourself best way of learning with a few helping tips from other thrown in. The products he is using are well regarded by a large number op people jumping onto all the options without a starting point is not going to help.

I would take your Bronze brush tip though a lot of miss information about brass brush use. Just dont try to reverse the direction of them while in the bore.
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Re: Copper fouling - how bad ?

Post by Bill » 29 Mar 2020, 6:09 pm

yeah I know what ya saying sungazer, nylon brush are as useful as tits on a bull. Ive had bore scopes for 20 years and honestly sometimes they only make you feel worse. I havent looked down a bore for quite a few year, sometime it better not to know :drinks:
When a guy is digging his own grave, you don’t fight him for the shovel.

Success leaves clues, Fools follow failure !

20 Hornet, 218 Bee, 256 WM, 6mm ARC, 6.5 Grendel, 6.5x55 Scan, 270 Win, 357 Mag, 358 Win, 9.3x62, 500 A Square
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