Sabots for .308

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Sabots for .308

Post by wildcard6 » 02 May 2020, 4:27 pm

I've been given a bag of plastic sabots for shooting .224 calibre bullets in a .308 calibre cartridge and I'm hoping to get some suggestions for a suitable powder/load for them. My first thought was to load them with Trail Boss, but I realised that driving the bullets at low velocity wasn't going to give me any sort of accuracy because the bullets wouldn't be rotating fast enough to stabilse them. One other issue I thought of was that I'd need to bell-mouth the cases [the same as I do when loading cast lead bullets] and I've got the die to do that, so I won't damage the sabots as I seat them. US forums list Vihtavuori powder - 32.4 grains of N110, but the ADI load-data has no equivalent for it. If I read it right, it's faster than AR2205! If someone has done any experimentation [successful] with these things, I'd be obliged if you would share with me any ideas.
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Re: Sabots for .308

Post by No1Mk3 » 02 May 2020, 4:39 pm

G'day wildcard6,
I used to load 30-06 sabot with 52.0g of IMR 3031, then later with AR2206. The sabot rounds need a faster powder than a standard rifle load so anything from 2205 to Benchmark2 would be good, Cheers.
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Re: Sabots for .308

Post by bladeracer » 02 May 2020, 5:39 pm

wildcard6 wrote:I've been given a bag of plastic sabots for shooting .224 calibre bullets in a .308 calibre cartridge and I'm hoping to get some suggestions for a suitable powder/load for them. My first thought was to load them with Trail Boss, but I realised that driving the bullets at low velocity wasn't going to give me any sort of accuracy because the bullets wouldn't be rotating fast enough to stabilse them. One other issue I thought of was that I'd need to bell-mouth the cases [the same as I do when loading cast lead bullets] and I've got the die to do that, so I won't damage the sabots as I seat them. US forums list Vihtavuori powder - 32.4 grains of N110, but the ADI load-data has no equivalent for it. If I read it right, it's faster than AR2205! If someone has done any experimentation [successful] with these things, I'd be obliged if you would share with me any ideas.



http://www.sabotreloadingpro.com/reloading_data

Trailboss pushes a 123gn bullet to 2000fps in my .30-06, I would think it would push a 55gn bullet way faster than that.
Might have to order some and try them myself.
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Re: Sabots for .308

Post by Blr243 » 02 May 2020, 5:47 pm

Sabots are like a six pack of unpopular beer. They were given to u for a reason. So give them to somebody else or throw them in the bin
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Re: Sabots for .308

Post by bladeracer » 02 May 2020, 5:47 pm

US dollar is 61 cents just now, but I've ordered 600 sabots, A$180.

Actually, 700 sabots, and the sabot seating die for that price.
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Re: Sabots for .308

Post by bladeracer » 02 May 2020, 5:49 pm

Blr243 wrote:Sabots are like a six pack of unpopular beer. They were given to u for a reason. So give them to somebody else or throw them in the bin


Did you have poor results with them?

I've heard they can be pretty crappy, but I don't want them for precision, just for experimenting with.
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Re: Sabots for .308

Post by Larry » 02 May 2020, 7:32 pm

Its really very similar to a 243W that is a going to be just a slightly larger bullet fired in a 308 case. You would be best to look up the loads for a 243 I would think. The most popular powder for the 243 is 2209. I have also used AR2206H.

I think the limiting factor would be what is the sabot made out of and will it stand up to the job, What sort of fouling will occur in your barrel?
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Re: Sabots for .308

Post by bladeracer » 02 May 2020, 9:05 pm

Larry wrote:Its really very similar to a 243W that is a going to be just a slightly larger bullet fired in a 308 case. You would be best to look up the loads for a 243 I would think. The most popular powder for the 243 is 2209. I have also used AR2206H.

I think the limiting factor would be what is the sabot made out of and will it stand up to the job, What sort of fouling will occur in your barrel?


These poly sabots have been used to exceed 4000fps in .30-06, I think they're up to the task.
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Re: Sabots for .308

Post by No1Mk3 » 02 May 2020, 9:25 pm

G'day bladeracer,
Sabot ammo is not much chop past 300 yards, even the old Remington Accelerator 30-06 was no good past that. Accuracy was mediocre as well. The fun was 4000 + fps muzzle velocity and huge bang but you need a good dose of fairly fast powder to get there. From memory in the 30-06 the max was 57g of IMR 3031 for 4450 fps and a 6moa target at 3 to 400 yards. 22-250 was a better option so sabots fell out of favour. A new generation of sabots that use a special die to seat them have been getting some fair revues, but I just stick to a small calibre rifle now days and use full size bullets in the larger calibres. Anyway, have fun playing and post your results for us to see, Cheers.
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Re: Sabots for .308

Post by bladeracer » 02 May 2020, 10:11 pm

No1Mk3 wrote:G'day bladeracer,
Sabot ammo is not much chop past 300 yards, even the old Remington Accelerator 30-06 was no good past that. Accuracy was mediocre as well. The fun was 4000 + fps muzzle velocity and huge bang but you need a good dose of fairly fast powder to get there. From memory in the 30-06 the max was 57g of IMR 3031 for 4450 fps and a 6moa target at 3 to 400 yards. 22-250 was a better option so sabots fell out of favour. A new generation of sabots that use a special die to seat them have been getting some fair revues, but I just stick to a small calibre rifle now days and use full size bullets in the larger calibres. Anyway, have fun playing and post your results for us to see, Cheers.


Yes, as I said, I'm not interested in precision, or long range. I have tens of thousands of cheap bulk .224" bullets. Even at 20c apiece for a sabot, a 10c bullet in it makes a 30c bullet for plinking and such. Combined with the reduced charges due to the light bullet it should make for cheap shooting. And as I generally plink in place, I'm curious as to whether the sabots are reusable.
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Re: Sabots for .308

Post by No1Mk3 » 03 May 2020, 2:11 am

G'day bladeracer,
The sabot is intended to splay out the fingers after leaving the muzzle and the chance of getting them back to shape is close to zero. From this it is also not a good idea to shoot them through muzzle brakes as a few Accelerator shooters found out, Cheers.
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Re: Sabots for .308

Post by Blr243 » 03 May 2020, 6:02 pm

Never tried sabots but never heard anything good about them either. I really don’t think you can turn a 3006 into a 223
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Re: Sabots for .308

Post by bladeracer » 03 May 2020, 10:16 pm

Blr243 wrote:Never tried sabots but never heard anything good about them either. I really don’t think you can turn a 3006 into a 223


I don't think anybody is suggesting you can. It's just a way of making cheaper plinking ammo, and some fun experimenting :-)
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Re: Sabots for .308

Post by Archie » 04 May 2020, 9:00 am

Can I (as a person who doesn’t reload) ask what might be a stupid question. If you shoot a .224 bullet in a rifle chambered for 30-06 using a sabot, does the bullet itself engage with the rifling at all? Or is that the sabot’s job and then I assume the sabot separates once it leaves the barrel?
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Re: Sabots for .308

Post by Blr243 » 04 May 2020, 10:32 am

The sabot is a tight fitting sleeve The sabot engages the riflling. A five mm object can’t touch a 7 mm cylinder
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Re: Sabots for .308

Post by Archie » 04 May 2020, 12:18 pm

Blr243 wrote:The sabot is a tight fitting sleeve The sabot engages the riflling. A five mm object can’t touch a 7 mm cylinder


Thanks that’s what I figured must happen, cheers.
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Re: Sabots for .308

Post by bladeracer » 04 May 2020, 12:42 pm

Archie wrote:
Blr243 wrote:The sabot is a tight fitting sleeve The sabot engages the riflling. A five mm object can’t touch a 7 mm cylinder


Thanks that’s what I figured must happen, cheers.


It's very similar to a paper-patched bullet, the paper engages the rifling.
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Re: Sabots for .308

Post by wildcard6 » 04 May 2020, 3:51 pm

I'm still at the thinking stage, but one thing that's occurred to me is that using lighter bullets will require less velocity than heavy [and thus longer] bullets. I've put ten 61-grain FMJ bullets into sabots already, but I'm going to have a fossick among my bits'n'pieces to see what 40-grainers I have, because they won't need to be fired at insane speeds to stabilise them. .22 long rifle bullets stabilise at 750 fps [refer CCI Quite-.22's], so I might be able to test first with Trail Boss after all!
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Re: Sabots for .308

Post by bladeracer » 04 May 2020, 7:32 pm

wildcard6 wrote:I'm still at the thinking stage, but one thing that's occurred to me is that using lighter bullets will require less velocity than heavy [and thus longer] bullets. I've put ten 61-grain FMJ bullets into sabots already, but I'm going to have a fossick among my bits'n'pieces to see what 40-grainers I have, because they won't need to be fired at insane speeds to stabilise them. .22 long rifle bullets stabilise at 750 fps [refer CCI Quite-.22's], so I might be able to test first with Trail Boss after all!


.22LR is generally 16"-twist.
I've fired lots of different high-velocity rifles with long bullets at reduced subsonic loads, stabilisation is rarely a problem due to low velocity. If a bullet is stabilised at 3000rpm, it should still be stable at 500rpm.

The sabot is supposed to fall away upon exiting the muzzle so should not affect stability.
55gn bullets often work okay in 14"-twist.
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Re: Sabots for .308

Post by wildcard6 » 10 May 2020, 2:59 pm

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An old load from Nick Harvey is 38 grains of AR2205 behind a 55-grain bullet and his claimed velocity was 3800 fps. This is one load I will be trying, as well as 12 and 14 grains of Trail Boss behind 50-grain Nosler SHOTS bullets just to see what happens. One thing I came across was that when firing these things, the barrel must be CLEAN before firing. No copper fouling especially. There's a lot of stuff on You Tube, with 30-06 loadings very popular in the USA. One guy's got readings of 5000 fps+ over his chrony using 55-grain bullets! They go straight through AR500 steel plates! Beware though... one guy fired three shots through his chrony and the third shot killed the chrony! Well the sabot killed it anyway. I've been told that the holy grail with these things is finding ACCURACY. I've also been told that if I find it, I'll be the first to do so!
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Re: Sabots for .308

Post by bladeracer » 10 May 2020, 5:24 pm

I have 30gn bullets I can try when the sabots arrive :-)
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Re: Sabots for .308

Post by wildcard6 » 14 May 2020, 8:50 pm

I finally got the chance to test three loads today. The 12 grains load of Trail Boss behind 50-grain SHOTS were no good at all. Only one bullet hot the [large] target at 50 meters. 14 grains did better, with four shots hitting the target, but still, no real accuracy of note. When I tried the 38 grains of AR 2205, things really got loud! Because I had no idea where on the target I was going to hit, I just fired at open space. I then fired at that bullet hole for the next four shots. Those four shots went 1.75" [at 50 m]. It seems clear that a stiff load of something fast-burning is the best plan, but I don't know how much more '05 is safe. I'll try 39-grains next. I'm worried that using fast burning powders could cause a sudden pressure spike, so I'll be proceeding with caution. At this stage though, the primers are not showing any signs of flattening.
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Re: Sabots for .308

Post by Oldbloke » 15 May 2020, 10:05 am

I remember well when the sabots first become available years ago. It soon become well known that accuracy was poor. This is the reverse of what your after in a 224 calibre rifle suitable for small game. So not sure why you would bother.

It your intention is for plinking probably cheaper & easier to buy or cast lead bullets IMHO.
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Re: Sabots for .308

Post by wildcard6 » 15 May 2020, 11:28 am

I agree that accuracy is better with cast lead bullets. After I tested the three sabot loads I tested a couple of cast lead loads and at the same range [50 m], 190 grain gas-checked bullets were shooting .75" with 24 grains of AR2206H [pictured]. No doubt I can improve on that with seating depth and powder charge tweaking, but it is plenty as-is for 200 m Ram silhouette shooting in the condensed version of centrefire metallic silhouette we shoot at my local gun club.
The only reason I tried these things is because after re-sizing and prepping every cartridge case I have, there was nothing left to do. Then I was given these sabots, so I thought... give them a try! I have come across one reference on a US forum where a guy said he was getting .75" groups at 100 yards, which would be acceptable. Really though, there's no practical use that I can think of unless you were trying to get .22-250 performance from a .308.
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Re: Sabots for .308

Post by Oldbloke » 15 May 2020, 1:57 pm

Yeh, understand, bored stiff. I'd be very happy with that for cast bullets. :thumbsup:

If I recall my cast groups are close to twice that. But then I'm using shotgun powder.
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Re: Sabots for .308

Post by wildcard6 » 22 May 2020, 11:48 am

Latest experiment results. Using 5--grain Nosler SHOTS bullets and 39 grains of AR2205 powder. Seating depth .25". Shooting at 50 meters. Three shots grouped into .5", four shots went 1", but the fifth shot blew the group out to 4.5". I thought I was onto something until that last shot! I found two of the discarded sabots about 8 meters in front of the firing line. My guess is that the one shot that blew the group so badly might not have been concentrically placed in the sabot. I'm using the 'tool' supplied for seating the bullets in the sabots, but can't see any way to control how the bullets are seated. Next time I'll try 52-grain Sierra Match King bullets to see if they improve things at all.
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Re: Sabots for .308

Post by Oldbloke » 22 May 2020, 1:39 pm

I'd try that load again.
Dodgy sabot perhaps?
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Re: Sabots for .308

Post by bladeracer » 01 Jul 2020, 1:06 pm

bladeracer wrote:US dollar is 61 cents just now, but I've ordered 600 sabots, A$180.

Actually, 700 sabots, and the sabot seating die for that price.


A quick update, though I haven't had a chance to test shoot them as yet.
I ordered 700 sabots (plus the die), and received 400 (plus the die). I asked about it and received profuse apologies for the mixup and would be sent the remainder immediately.
Then I got a message that they have accidentally sent the entire original order of 700 (plus the die), oops.
They had indeed, so I paid for the extra 400 sabots and now have a pile of 1100 to play with :-)
Can certainly recommend the service at - http://www.sabotreloadingpro.com/

I also have two of the bullet seating dies, which I'm really not seeing any need for yet. It's supposed to seat the bullet into the sabot then you seat the unit using your normal seating die. So far the bullets seat firmly into the sabots with finger pressure. But, they do say that consistency counts so it may be simply a way of ensuring consistent seating in the sabots, I'll have to test with and without.
They also say that the bore must be spotless, no carbon, copper or lead fouling as it tears the sabot and destroys accuracy.
Really looking forward to playing with these, but I'm going to have to buy some more thirties I think, I only have .30-06, .30-30, 7.62x54R and .303 currently:-)
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