Moly Bullets

[Jarhead]

Hi All!

I could use your help! I am after some wisdom.

I have never used Moly bullets- mainly for the reason that I know how to get lead and copper out of a barrel but I have no idea how to get Moly out.

But I see a lot of people using them- which makes me suspect that my thinking is keeping me away from a good thing.

I am interested in what happens when it comes to cleaning the bore after a good range day.

Trusting all those moly shooters out there to help me get al little smarter today!

Regards......

[in2anity]

Sweets 7.62

Follow the instructions on the bottle.

[linkoln]

People have been shooting lead bullets for hundreds of years with no problems so probably sick with what you know, they sound like a fad from many years ago that never really caught on.
I'm glad to learn something new today because I had never even heard the term before moly bullets until i read this.

[Jarhead]

Thanks In2anity,

I have a bottle. I had a look. I am still in the same place scratching my head.

Lead is an inert metal. I get lead fouling out with elbow grease and a brass wire brush.

Copper is a reactive metal and Sweets or Hoppes can tackle it. Patches used with Sweets on copper come out blue- copper oxides - which tell you it is working and you know the copper is gone when there is no more blue on your patches.

Molybdenum disulfide is not reactive like copper. It is fairly inert like lead. Are there any similar "blue patch" like tell tales with moly? I.e. how do you know when you barrel is free of moly?

Regards......

[in2anity]

A nylon brush and some sweets seems to cure all my ales, but then again, i've no personal experience with moly coated pills. Perhaps you could give that bortech moly magic a go?

[Jarhead]

Thanks In2anity,

You nailed it.

Never underestimate the combined knowledge of a large social network.

[SCJ429]

Shooters want use moly to get a bit of extra speed, I found I lost speed, why do you want to try moly coatings?

[Bill]

used some Moly coated 100gr BT in a 250 Savage once, clocked 3340fps out of a 24 inch tubed L579. Had no trouble srcubbing it out, previously owner told me to never leave the stuff barrel in the barrel. I havent found the need to use it since

[SCJ429]

used some Moly coated 100gr BT in a 250 Savage once, clocked 3340fps out of a 24 inch tubed L579. Had no trouble srcubbing it out, previously owner told me to never leave the stuff barrel in the barrel. I havent found the need to use it since

What speed did you get out of a naked bullet with the same load?

I found it took around 20 shots to get the barrel to settle down after cleaning and no extra accuracy over a naked bullet. If it is your thing, more power to you OP.

[No1_49er]

Shooters want use moly to get a bit of extra speed, I found I lost speed, why do you want to try moly coatings?

The loss of muzzle velocity can be attributed to the lower friction that the moly' coating provides.
Subsequently, the projectile slides more easily along the barrel and does not cause the same (back)pressure as a naked projectile. You therefore need to increase the powder charge to achieve at least the original velocity. If you measure the naked velocity, and increase the charge to achieve that same velocity when using moly' coated, the pressure should be the virtually same.

[SCJ429]

Thanks 49er, even after cramming in more powder to get me back into my node I could not surpass the speeds I achieved with a naked bullet. It was for me, a lot of extra work for no gain. This was my experience, others may have had different results. When I look along the benches there are very few coated projectiles.

[Barnard]

I used to use my own moly coated projectiles in my 22ppc benchrest gun (not that I was really serious about benchrest).
it was put on to me by the previous owner of my rifle.
the generally accepted reason for using it that it reduces slight variations from shot to shot once the round count gets hight, and aids in maintaining accuracy over a large amount of rounds.
example,...after about 50 rounds one might experience a 'slight' reduction in accuracy requiring a quick clean of the barrel.
but you would have to be a benchrest shooter to be able to tell the difference.
after a while I gave up coating the projectiles as I didn't bother continuing with bench rest and only used that rifle for some varminting.
cleaning the barrel was easy.
just use a well known and recommended bore cleaning agent, preferable a carbon removing agent, and a 'good' nylon brush.

velocity dropped with moly, as did the pressures created.
to increase velocity again just add more gun powder,....approx. half a grain to get you back up to speed.
so really,....it's of no real advantage.
but rather just another bloody process added to the reloading schedule.

[Bill]

SCJ429 I didnt load up any uncoated 100gr BTs to compare, the rifle was supplied with a 100x Moly loaded rounds, they shot 0.3 Moa 5 shots, medium Tobler barrel. A rifle I regret selling.

At the time I thought they were 85gr BT cause of the speed, we pulled a bullet and were shocked to discover they were actually 100gr

[marksman]

if you think its a good thing or not just remember moly and water are a bad mix, its not a good thing for a hunting rifle that may be out in moist conditions

https://www.shootingsoftware.com/moly.htm

[Jarhead]

SCJ429,

To answer your question- cost.

I am shooting and reloading (and more importantly, paying for) only match bullets- Hornady 140gr ELD-M's in 6.5CM with a view to getting into F class.

I found a deal on 1000 moly coated bullets and didn't buy them because of my barrel cleaning mental block.

SCJ429......are you also a Mustang man? As in Super Cobra Jet 429 cubic inches...... If not what does that name stand for?

Regards

[SCJ429]

I hope the ELDM were very cheap, they can be a little frustrating. I would not use them for competition and if you are paying $1 a bullet or there abouts I would look at some other options.

Yes it is a BBF motor, it is in my shed. You are quite knowledgeable and perhaps not a spring chicken to know about these things.

[Jarhead]

SCJ429,

I paid only .49 each for the ELD's- best deal I could find. What caused the frustration for you with these?

I have owned a few Ponies built in those Woodstock years (back when sex was safe and car were dangerous ). I still have one......

123.jpg (167.43 KiB) Viewed 5541 times

Is there a car wrapped around that big block in your shed?

[SCJ429]

The ogives length vary a bit but even after batching they were difficult to get them to shoot a decent group. I shoot a Berger 140 VLD out of a 260 which gives me a pretty good result.

I had the motor in a XB Falcon, the car is gone but I still have the motor.

[Flyer]

Water won't wash moly off bullets once it is applied (bonded) correctly. In fact, the wet coating process is preferred for molybdenum disulfide (MoS2) for this reason. Moly is not water soluable, but a slurry can be used to coat the bullet and if correctly done will not come of easily as it becomes impregnated into the copper after tumbling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molybdenu ... te_note-37
https://bergerbullets.com/official-moly ... g-process/
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/thread ... d.3922894/

Etc.

I haven't tried the 140 ELD-Ms in my 6.5CM, but the 143 ELD-X shoot great. Not as slipery as the ELD-Ms, but make a great dual-purpose target/hunting round. They can often be bought quite cheap as well.

IMG_2330.JPG (58.72 KiB) Viewed 5487 times

First shot was a sighter and the next five went into .350" at 100m

IMG_2329.JPG (52.74 KiB) Viewed 5487 times

123gr Lapua, four shots at 100m

Creedmoor143ELDX123Scenar.jpg (601.96 KiB) Viewed 5487 times

143gr ELD-X left, 123gr Lapua Scenar right

[straightshooter]

Moly coated bullets are now really passe.
They never delivered what they promised except in the imagination of their true believers.
The 'new kid on the block' is boron nitride coating which I expect will deliver much the same benefits as moly coating.

[marksman]

l have also been hearing that graphiting your barrel has benefits

[Stix]

What am i missing there gentlemen...?

I just googled this boron stuff, & look what it says...copied & pasted from Wikipedia site...

Boron nitride is a thermally and chemically resistant refractory compound of boron and nitrogen with the chemical formula BN. It exists in various crystalline forms that are isoelectronic to a similarly structured carbon lattice. The hexagonal form corresponding to graphite is the most stable and soft among BN polymorphs, and is therefore used as a lubricant and an additive to cosmetic products.

So from this i followed the link to the graphite page...

Graphite (/ˈɡræfaɪt/), archaically referred to as plumbago, is a crystalline form of the element carbon with its atoms arranged in a hexagonal structure. It occurs naturally in this form and is the most stable form of carbon under standard conditions.[i]Under high pressures and temperatures it converts to diamond. Graphite is used in pencils and lubricants. It is a good conductor of heat and electricity. Its high conductivity makes it useful in electronic products such as electrodes, batteries, and solar panels.[/i]

Now it doesnt state what these pressures are--or i havent read that far---but surely this cant be good for barrels--well thats my immediate thought anyway...

[johnblackpigs]

Interesting points of view. I insert the prepped case neck in moly coated brush just to lube the inside of the neck, the difference when seating a bullet is quite noticeable. Suggest it gets away cleanly on ignition, Would love to have crony to make a comparison.

[Oldbloke]

Possible i guess. See detonation process.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_diamond

[JohnV]

Using moly like that is not going to give you any benefit . The whole idea is to let it coat the bore and stay in the bore until accuracy starts to drop off . If you clean too regular there is little gain . Fine Moly MoS2 has superior load bearing capability than either BN or Powder coating or Graphite . Most people are not using a good bullet coating process and get inferior results . Cleaning too often negates the coating buildup which does the work . The idea is to shoot Moly until the accuracy starts to fall off then do a full clean . Then start again , in my 223 it takes about 20 shots to coat again but accuracy during those 20 shots is still good . I clean about every 300 shots or when convenient . NEVER think that moly will protect the bore like oil or grease can . It does not exclude oxygen or moisture in the air from the barrel steel surface because of it's Lamellar structure . So after shooting Moly always patch out with oil before putting the gun away short term but don't scrub it all out .
What this all means is I can shoot for days and nights on end without needing to use any bore solvents and just a thin swab of oil in the barrel if the gun is not being used for a day or over night . BUT your moly has to be pure fine grade MoS2 and applied to teh bullets with a proper process . It's illegal to shoot Kangaroos professionally with a coated bullet .

[JohnV]

What am i missing there gentlemen...?

I just googled this boron stuff, & look what it says...copied & pasted from Wikipedia site...

Boron nitride is a thermally and chemically resistant refractory compound of boron and nitrogen with the chemical formula BN. It exists in various crystalline forms that are isoelectronic to a similarly structured carbon lattice. The hexagonal form corresponding to graphite is the most stable and soft among BN polymorphs, and is therefore used as a lubricant and an additive to cosmetic products.

So from this i followed the link to the graphite page...

Graphite (/ˈɡræfaɪt/), archaically referred to as plumbago, is a crystalline form of the element carbon with its atoms arranged in a hexagonal structure. It occurs naturally in this form and is the most stable form of carbon under standard conditions.[i]Under high pressures and temperatures it converts to diamond. Graphite is used in pencils and lubricants. It is a good conductor of heat and electricity. Its high conductivity makes it useful in electronic products such as electrodes, batteries, and solar panels.[/i]

Now it doesnt state what these pressures are--or i havent read that far---but surely this cant be good for barrels--well thats my immediate thought anyway...

BN can't build up on it's self like the Lamellar structure of moly can . So it's just a thin wash coating that has far less potential to protect the bore and the bullet from friction and engraving distortion's from the lands . Because of this it's quicker to coat and cleaner to use but it's not superior to Moly . It has gained popularity from the people that failed to understand Moly and failed to learn a proper process . With a proper process a good coating can be had on the bullet that does not come off on your fingers . Without the silly carnauba wax which just gums up the bore .

[JohnV]

Interesting points of view. I insert the prepped case neck in moly coated brush just to lube the inside of the neck, the difference when seating a bullet is quite noticeable. Suggest it gets away cleanly on ignition, Would love to have crony to make a comparison.

You are quite right to do that . I did a 10 year storage test of 250 re- loaded rounds and to cut a very long story short . The moly coated bullet displayed the most consistent neck tension release and 100% no neck welding between the bullet jacket and case neck . Some bare brass to jacket gilding metal had signs of neck welding and many had to be pulled with a press collet puller and when fired had obvious extra pressure so I pulled the remainder .

[JohnV]

What am i missing there gentlemen...?

I just googled this boron stuff, & look what it says...copied & pasted from Wikipedia site...

Boron nitride is a thermally and chemically resistant refractory compound of boron and nitrogen with the chemical formula BN. It exists in various crystalline forms that are isoelectronic to a similarly structured carbon lattice. The hexagonal form corresponding to graphite is the most stable and soft among BN polymorphs, and is therefore used as a lubricant and an additive to cosmetic products.

So from this i followed the link to the graphite page...

Graphite (/ˈɡræfaɪt/), archaically referred to as plumbago, is a crystalline form of the element carbon with its atoms arranged in a hexagonal structure. It occurs naturally in this form and is the most stable form of carbon under standard conditions.[i]Under high pressures and temperatures it converts to diamond. Graphite is used in pencils and lubricants. It is a good conductor of heat and electricity. Its high conductivity makes it useful in electronic products such as electrodes, batteries, and solar panels.[/i]

Now it doesnt state what these pressures are--or i havent read that far---but surely this cant be good for barrels--well thats my immediate thought anyway...

There is no evidence that BN can hurt the bore or increase wear with the Hexagonal BN commonly used . It's molecular structure makes it act more like a lubricant between the two opposed friction surfaces but Moly is a friction modifier not acting like a normal lubricant , The Lamellar structure of Moly allows a slip on the Sulfur atoms because their bond is weaker than the Molybdenum bonds . Moly has a high coefficient of friction against the bore steel and the bullet and a low coefficient of friction against it's self . So the bullet coating and bore coating hangs on and the moly slides on it's self . I could go on for pages but that's the gist of it .

[JohnV]

Water won't wash moly off bullets once it is applied (bonded) correctly. In fact, the wet coating process is preferred for molybdenum disulfide (MoS2) for this reason. Moly is not water soluable, but a slurry can be used to coat the bullet and if correctly done will not come of easily as it becomes impregnated into the copper after tumbling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molybdenu ... te_note-37
https://bergerbullets.com/official-moly ... g-process/
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/thread ... d.3922894/

Etc.

I haven't tried the 140 ELD-Ms in my 6.5CM, but the 143 ELD-X shoot great. Not as slipery as the ELD-Ms, but make a great dual-purpose target/hunting round. They can often be bought quite cheap as well.

IMG_2330.JPG

First shot was a sighter and the next five went into .350" at 100m

IMG_2329.JPG

123gr Lapua, four shots at 100m

Creedmoor143ELDX123Scenar.jpg

143gr ELD-X left, 123gr Lapua Scenar right

Can't see any coating at all . I would never use that wet process because putting water ( potentially slightly acidic ) near Moly could react with the sulfur and actually break down it's benefits . Also chemically , water with sulphur can react to produce mild acids , It flies in the face of the whole reason why Moly works and it's chemistry . Your excellent accuracy achieved has little to do with Moly and more to do with a quality gun and load in the hands of a top shot . It would be less prone to floating around in the air and mechanically I can see it would peen in , in the tumbler , but it's the water in the Moly that I don't like . I wear a mask at all times when coating . They say it's not hygroscopic but I am not so sure about the sulfur .

[JohnV]

Shooters want use moly to get a bit of extra speed, I found I lost speed, why do you want to try moly coatings?

That is not the main reason for using Moly . When you reduce in bore friction you reduce chamber pressure and also velocity .
That is because the lower friction allows the bullet to move earlier and move easier down the bore altering the way the pressure increases during ignition . To get back to the original velocity you have to increase the powder load slightly .
The main benefits of Moly are decreased barrel wear and decrease in cleaning frequency while maintaining accuracy . Their are other harder to see benefits.