lets talk levers- uberti 44 mag 1873?

[mickb]

Probably not my preference to run an 1873 toggle link action with full house 44 mag pressures, but you would assume uberti knows what they are doing. Running one under the speed of sound for pigs in close though, that is the question. I was looking at the 200 grain gold dot, which expands to 70cal at about 850fps impact. Its a handgun bullet, but Im thinking it should still do the job on pigs? Also wondering what a 44 mag sounds like under the speed of sound with 5-6 grain loads of fast burners. I have experience with 357/38 special. I am assuming it has to be a bigger bang, but not like a 410 shotgun blast? Anyway, any thoughts welcolmed. If you have plugged game with a lever and reduced loads of any sort, happy to hear stories.

[bladeracer]

I have the Uberti 66 in .38 Special. I think it's a nice rifle, if you like the old-school toggle-link technology.
But it's also very expensive compared to my Rossi 92 in .357Mag, or my Marlin 94 in .44 Mag.

I think Uberti build them to withstand modern factory ammo though, if not there should be warnings in the manual and on the website.

I have subsonic loads in all three cartridges for every day plinking, they're all pretty easy on the ears, though the boom does get louder and bigger with increasing bullet weight due to the accompanying increase in charge weights.

If you want to hunt subsonic, I would go with heavier bullets rather than lighter. 240gn to 300gn, if it has the twist rate to run them.

[bladeracer]

I checked the website.
The manual says to use commercial ammo loaded to SAAMI CIP spec, so any factory ammo should be safe.

https://www.uberti-usa.com/1873-rifle-and-carbine

[mickb]

Thanks Blade, what sort of loads do you run in the 66? Thats a nice gun, the brass action isnt it? Whats accuracy like? Always wondered if it could handle 38+P loads, as in 100-150fps faster than standard 38 special.

[bladeracer]

Thanks Blade, what sort of loads do you run in the 66? Thats a nice gun, the brass action isnt it? Whats accuracy like? Always wondered if it could handle 38+P loads, as in 100-150fps faster than standard 38 special.

It is solid brass.
I'll have to check my log tomorrow but I run bullets from 125gn to 200gn in it, I doubt it's rated to +P.
Accuracy is not bad, but I've never mounted a scope to see just how good it can get. I don't like the OEM rear sight so I mounted a William's peep.

[Blr243]

Because I used to shoot close to my dog ( hearing damage) and because I did not want to scare away pigs that could be just around the corner , I tried subsonic hunting but it was a dismal failure I started with 220 pills in a 300 blackout but ended up buying a 450 bushmaster with 300 grain pills ...regardless of how well the bullet mushrooms there simply is not enough energy for clean kills. Subsonic equipment is wounding equipment ....I highly discourage the activity

[Blr243]

A 223 has 1300 foot pounds of energy. A 240 grainer at 1100 FPS has only 645 foot pounds of energy .....the pigs run away and hide to die slowly ........yanks fitted with suppressors shooting subs and making comments on hunting forums are full of garbage ...they don’t tell you about their failures. I would like to see subsonic hunting banned .....I went straight back to 87 grainers at high speed

[mickb]

I wondered how your 450 went, as you mentioned going from that after your 300 didnt work out. What bullet and velocity were you using in the 450 though? The 300 grainers are made for higher velocities and will not be expanding at all that slow. The only bullets for the 450 that will expand sub 1100fps are the JHP bullets the 45 ACP and 45 Colt utilise.

[bladeracer]

Because I used to shoot close to my dog ( hearing damage) and because I did not want to scare away pigs that could be just around the corner , I tried subsonic hunting but it was a dismal failure I started with 220 pills in a 300 blackout but ended up buying a 450 bushmaster with 300 grain pills ...regardless of how well the bullet mushrooms there simply is not enough energy for clean kills. Subsonic equipment is wounding equipment ....I highly discourage the activity

Did you recover any of the bullets to determine where they were failing? Even an FMJ through the brain, cervical spine, or heart is going to kill very quickly.

While I don't recommend hunting medium game with subsonic loads, game has been taken for centuries with subsonic ammo, even the old .45-70 405gn/1350fps was subsonic before it reached 100m, and it took lots of very big game.
Pigs are taken with .22LR as well.
It's not about bullet weight or velocity, it's about shot placement, which is imperative if using a non-deforming bullet - which many subsonic bullets will be.
But the heavier bullets penetrate deeper at the same velocities. A soft lead 300gn bullet at 1080fps is going to hit very hard at close ranges, certainly hard enough to kill pigs.

[bladeracer]

Thanks Blade, what sort of loads do you run in the 66? Thats a nice gun, the brass action isnt it? Whats accuracy like? Always wondered if it could handle 38+P loads, as in 100-150fps faster than standard 38 special.

It is solid brass.
I'll have to check my log tomorrow but I run bullets from 125gn to 200gn in it, I doubt it's rated to +P.
Accuracy is not bad, but I've never mounted a scope to see just how good it can get. I don't like the OEM rear sight so I mounted a William's peep.

In the '66 I shoot the 110gn FTX at 1300fps, 158gn cast at 975fps, and the 200gn JRN, but I can't find my velocity data for the 200gn.

Uberti 66 manual.JPG (78.62 KiB) Viewed 5110 times

The manual just says ammo according to SAAMI spec, but not whether it is rated for +P, so I'm assuming not. The 24.25" barrel and 18.25"-twist rate is brilliant for the heavier bullets.

In the .44Mag, 7.5gn of Trailboss pushes a 225gn cast bullet at 1050fps out of my Marlin 94, or the 250gn cast bullet around 1000fps. I haven't chronoed the 265gn FTX, but they have a supersonic crack on 8gn of TB.

When I made the mount for the rear sight, I made it big enough to mount a scope for load development, but have not done it yet, I need to get onto that.

[mickb]

Mate very nice setups there. The 110grainXTP at 1300fps sounds like a nifty little load. Like an oversized 22 CCI minimag. What is the report like with that load?

Actually would be interested to know whether that particular 38sp supersonic load is louder/quieter than your subsonic 44 loads mate? Or is it a different quality of sound that cannot be compared?

[mickb]

And Id say you are correct and SAAMI would mean the regular, not +P rating. Btw is the FTX a factory load or handloaded?

[Blr243]

The first pig I shot with my blackout just fell over I was impressed but after that it did not go well. Brain would be fine. Heart would be fine , spine is small and only disables the pig until you run up and shoot the brain ....very well placed shots with the 450 bushmaster bought down boars but they ran a bit before falling over. I put a ton of money research and time into the subsonic hunting thing but it just did not work ....I used 300 grain xtp and I used Sierra 230 power jacket. I realised that even with bullet mushrooms, at the end of the day it does not have the energy to be fair to the pigs to kill them quick. A subsonic 300 grainer has half the energy of a full power 223. I saw the results first hand in the field. I don’t like the idea of any pigs anywhere suffering as a result of our experiments ...this is why I’m so adamant about sharing my bad experience.......foxes, cats and dingoes broadside close is the only game I would use a 200 weight sub on

[bladeracer]

Mate very nice setups there. The 110grainXTP at 1300fps sounds like a nifty little load. Like an oversized 22 CCI minimag. What is the report like with that load?

Actually would be interested to know whether that particular 38sp supersonic load is louder/quieter than your subsonic 44 loads mate? Or is it a different quality of sound that cannot be compared?

You're on the right track, removing the supersonic crack is a very large part of the report.
With .22LR I personally consider the sonic crack to be louder than the gas cloud exiting the muzzle, at least to my ears.
Pushing heavier bullets down longer barrels requires burning more powder, eight-to-ten times more powder than a .22LR. At some point the sound of the detonation equals or exceeds the sonic crack, again, to my ears, I haven't studied it scientifically. But the larger powder charges, probably in concert with the much greater combustion chamber volume of larger bores tends to become more of a dull boom, to me. So I'm not sure if a subsonic 240gn is necessarily "louder" than a subsonic .22LR, there's just so much "more" noise, if that makes sense

I do have an app that measures background noise, though I doubt a phone has a suitable microphone for definitive measurement, it might be sufficient to say whether one is actually producing more decibels than another, I'll have to play with it.

I also experimented with subsonic .30-30 loads a couple months back, with 100gn and 150gn bullets.

[bladeracer]

And Id say you are correct and SAAMI would mean the regular, not +P rating. Btw is the FTX a factory load or handloaded?

Yes, I would think if it were +P-rated it would state it somewhere
Straight-walled brass in a toggle-link sounds like a problem determining maximum pressures. With a bottle-necked case, when the brass flows, the case gets longer and makes it difficult to unlock the action, an excellent indicator of excessive pressure. I don't know if that occurs with straight-walled cases?

I'm sure I could push the loads significantly higher, but I have no shortage of other rifles I can use if I want to hit something harder

All handloads, I don't buy centrefire ammo.

[mickb]

BLR you post pretty emotively on the subject, which is fine, since you fee strongly about it

But if someone says to me

"the pigs run away and hide to die slowly ....... I would like to see subsonic hunting banned ..."

Then

"To very well placed shots with the 450 bushmaster bought down boars but they ran a bit before falling over"

Im reading this that the subsonic idea works, but its just not your style I would agree the yanks make subsonics sounds too much like death rays though. As to something running about for a while before it dies. Well thats no different from archery or shooting really heavy game, buff will run even with a shot by a 416 rigby. As long as it goes down, I dont care.

[bladeracer]

The first pig I shot with my blackout just fell over I was impressed but after that it did not go well. Brain would be fine. Heart would be fine , spine is small and only disables the pig until you run up and shoot the brain ....very well placed shots with the 450 bushmaster bought down boars but they ran a bit before falling over. I put a ton of money research and time into the subsonic hunting thing but it just did not work ....I used 300 grain xtp and I used Sierra 230 power jacket. I realised that even with bullet mushrooms, at the end of the day it does not have the energy to be fair to the pigs to kill them quick. A subsonic 300 grainer has half the energy of a full power 223. I saw the results first hand in the field. I don’t like the idea of any pigs anywhere suffering as a result of our experiments ...this is why I’m so adamant about sharing my bad experience.......foxes, cats and dingoes broadside close is the only game I would use a 200 weight sub on

What damage did that first bullet do that caused an instant kill?

I wouldn't be taking shots if I couldn't hit the brain or heart, for exactly the same reasons, instant kills or I don't fire. Bullet deformation really isn't relevant if you place the bullet into the brain or heart. Impact to the cervical spinal bones generally causes loss of consciousness, or at least stuns the animal senseless. It often stops the heart and lungs instantly as well. Not many animals survive a hit to the cervical spine.

[bladeracer]

BLR you post pretty emotively on the subject, which is fine, since you fee strongly about it

But if someone says to me

"the pigs run away and hide to die slowly ....... I would like to see subsonic hunting banned ..."

Then

"To very well placed shots with the 450 bushmaster bought down boars but they ran a bit before falling over"

Im reading this that the subsonic idea works, but its just not your style I would agree the yanks make subsonics sounds too much like death rays though. As to something running about for a while before it dies. Well thats no different from archery or shooting really heavy game, buff will run even with a shot by a 416 rigby. As long as it goes down, I dont care.

Agreed, using the ammunition in the wrong situation is not a failing of the ammunition.

[mickb]

Yes, I would think if it were +P-rated it would state it somewhere
Straight-walled brass in a toggle-link sounds like a problem determining maximum pressures. With a bottle-necked case, when the brass flows, the case gets longer and makes it difficult to unlock the action, an excellent indicator of excessive pressure. I don't know if that occurs with straight-walled cases?

I'm sure I could push the loads significantly higher, but I have no shortage of other rifles I can use if I want to hit something harder

All handloads, I don't buy centrefire ammo.

Cheers mate, can I ask what your load for the 110 grainer at 1300fps is. Feel free not to post it though if you dont want.

As to pressure determination with toggle links, yep thats above my paygrade. I have read threads on it and its usually when a uberti 1873 44 mag or 357 comes up and of course that worries some folks. What is usually agreed is its not the chance of the gun detonating or even the bolt coming back into your face, its just the fact the headspace will change over time. The thrust is distributed around the radius on the pins in the toggles, and as they are stressed , they may loosen over time. Again no definitve answers. I just did a seach on several 66 threads and the advice was to keep to standard 38 levels as you say.

[Blr243]

I won’t bag anyone who does susbsonic hunting ...I just won’t do it myself.....I think it’s still humane with lots of discipline in regards to shot placement One good boar in particular i shot with the 450 sub ran and fell over and kicked for a bit. It reminded me of a bow kill ....I used to do a stack of bow hunting when younger

[bladeracer]

I won’t bag anyone who does susbsonic hunting ...I just won’t do it myself.....I think it’s still humane with lots of discipline in regards to shot placement One good boar in particular i shot with the 450 sub ran and fell over and kicked for a bit. It reminded me of a bow kill ....I used to do a stack of bow hunting when younger

Agreed, if somebody doesn't have the patience to only take the good shots they really do need the hydrostatic shock of supersonic bullets. I gave a box of .22LR to some blackfellas once, in exchange for some beef from the "killer". They were back shortly after wanting more ammo, the poor bloody cow was still wandering around with close to 50rds in it!

From the bow hunting I've seen, game running away when struck is the norm isn't it? They seem to rely entirely on blood loss, which takes time. I have seen some instant drops but I think they're luck rather than skill.

[mickb]

I won’t bag anyone who does susbsonic hunting ...I just won’t do it myself.....I think it’s still humane with lots of discipline in regards to shot placement One good boar in particular i shot with the 450 sub ran and fell over and kicked for a bit. It reminded me of a bow kill ....I used to do a stack of bow hunting when younger

BLR all good I appreciate your posts. Obviously you were a bit pissed when the performance of subsonics didnt match expectations. I wanted to hear all sides of it. I actually posted the same thing recently on the NZ hunt forums because they are the kings of subsonic hunting being the lucky buggars can use suppressors. Replies usually are that it works sure, but its not a death ray, and there always a couple fellas who hate it. Horses for courses.

[bladeracer]

Cheers mate, can I ask what your load for the 110 grainer at 1300fps is. Feel free not to post it though if you dont want.

As to pressure determination with toggle links, yep that's above my paygrade. I have read threads on it and its usually when a uberti 1873 44 mag or 357 comes up and of course that worries some folks. What is usually agreed is its not the chance of the gun detonating or even the bolt coming back into your face, its just the fact the headspace will change over time. The thrust is distributed around the radius on the pins in the toggles, and as they are stressed , they may loosen over time. Again no definitive answers. I just did a search on several 66 threads and the advice was to keep to standard 38 levels as you say.

Sorry, I thought I'd included it.
That was 4.5gn of TB behind the 110gn JHP and the cast 158gn giving 1300fps and 975fps in the 24" barrel.

Yes, I'm not too concerned about it failing catastrophically, more about long-term fatigue.

[boingk]

Hey mate if you're going subsonic bullet weight is your friend. Go straight to the top of the chart, get something like a 45-70. As above, avoid the Blackout AAC... its a niche design for silenced fully automatic weapons and close combat military scenarios. Single shot longarms they just don't make sense.

I've got a Marlin 1895GBL in 45-70 and have a few loads sorted for it. My favourite at the moment is a 400gn bullet with 13gn of Trailboss, it trundles along about 1000fps and groups 1" flat at 100m. With the same scope settings I also shoot a 300gn @ 1800fps and its zeroed at 200m instead of 100 like the subsonic.

The 45-70 is versatile because of the huge case capacity and large range of bullets available. You can get from 250 up to 500gn+, its ridiculous. In the same gun just with my two loads I have the subsonic load delivering 900ftlb and the moderate load 300gn punching out close to 2200ftlb, and you can definitely load them harder than that if you so desire.

Check into the 45-70. For what its worth, I love my Marlin 1895, and the GBL in my eyes is a must as you get the full length 6 round tube mag, not just 4 in the shorter one. Throw on a red dot for close work, or even a 1-5X20 tactical type scope. Mine's wearing an ancient 4x40 Barska and works really well with that magnification.

Cheers - boingk

[mickb]

Mate not sure what the advantage is to going to such a large case for subsonics? The idea for me is low powder charges , 4-6 grains for economy and lower noise. 10- 13 grains in a 45-70 would seem to be working at cross purposes, thats almost a full 410 shotgun powder load, admittedly slower than the speed of sound, but quite blasty. Also a 200-300grain from 44 mag, 45 colt is going to punch holes clean through pig sized game anyway with velocity to spare. The yanks put these combinations right through black bears. The added footpounds of a 400 or 500 grain non expanding bullet and burning 3x the powder and its going to be expended in the dirt on the other side of the animal anyway. But I am just thinking out loud here. Happy to hear the reasons for the choice of the 45-70. Thanks for the post.

[bladeracer]

Mate not sure what the advantage is to going to such a large case for subsonics? The idea for me is low powder charges , 4-6 grains for economy and lower noise. 10- 13 grains in a 45-70 would seem to be working at cross purposes, thats almost a full 410 shotgun powder load, admittedly slower than the speed of sound, but quite blasty. Also a 200-300grain from 44 mag, 45 colt is going to punch holes clean through pig sized game anyway with velocity to spare. The yanks put these combinations right through black bears. The added footpounds of a 400 or 500 grain non expanding bullet and burning 3x the powder and its going to be expended in the dirt on the other side of the animal anyway. But I am just thinking out loud here. Happy to hear the reasons for the choice of the 45-70. Thanks for the post.

I like the .45-70, but I think it's over-size, more than an inch longer than the .44Mag, greatly limiting capacity and increasing the bulk of the action. 10rds of .44Mag can hit very hard, 5rds of .45-70 can hit a _lot_ harder, but unless you're after big beasts the .44Mag should be sufficient. And you can still load way down with 180gn bullets for when you only need .38 Special power levels.

You can certainly load the .45-70 right down also, while still being able to toss a 300gn bullet at 2500fps when you have to.
If you use a filler in the case to reduce it's volume you could probably use similar charges and bullet weights as the .44 Magnum.

[mickb]

yes its a good cartridge and good platform, the 1895 action can run pretty decent pressures too. Just a bit capacious at 70 grains capacity. 44 mag is only 39 grains, 44 special is about 34, 44 russian the shortest of the family is 27, about the same as 45 ACP. Less to have to fill.

[in2anity]

I had a light 1892 in 44mag for crossover PCLAS / LAS - was a bit of a brute and recoil sometimes made the rear tang bump my glasses. Didn't like it, so I went down to a 32-20 and 32H&R backup. IMO lovely all-rounder cartridges those two, sharing the same 125gr lead pill, not to mention burning less powder and spitballing less lead.

[mickb]

Mate what was the 32H&R in? Would love a lever gun in that calibre.

[mickb]

is it the elusive 1894? name your price if it is . And I'm serious, if you ever need quick dollars during the economic downturn you have a customer here