School me on 30/30 vs 45/70 - I’m shopping...

[in2anity]

1892????, never chambered in .30-30, obviously a typo ol'mate? I gather you meant Model 1894 rifles.
The cartridge was actually introduced by Winchester in 1895 as the first smokeless sporting cartridge.

oops you are right GR, 94 is what I meant.

[TassieTiger]

:lol: that’s it taz. I’ve seen some funny stuff at the range in regards to that sort of stuff. One time I gave a mate a crack at my old 8x57 with it’s light stock and 20” barrel, shooting 200gn Speer handloads . He’d talked his abilities up and the look on his face after pulling the trigger was priceless

I may or may not have loaded my Adler with 3 x no7 bird shots and then 2 x 3 inch turkey loads to a mouthy asshat and told him to shoot / cycle it like he stole it....we still giggle. He said, I thought something broke lol.

[bigpete]

Last time I had my smle at the range without a recoil pad it belted me bad 50 yr old shoulder muscle is not the same as 25 yr old shoulder muscle

Really ?

[TassieTiger]

What is with some 45:70’s octagon barrels - cosmetic? Any advantages / disadvantages?? Longevity? They look to be 26” in that particular model - seems long for a guide gun.
I’ve purchased dies and projectiles and brass now - there is no going back...lol.

[Blr243]

One of the long barrelled 4570 rifles I have been looking at has a tube mag running all the way underneath it I think it has an octagonal barrell. It holds nine in the Tube mag. Great Piece artillery for pig hunting

[Wm.Traynor]

What is with some 45:70’s octagon barrels - cosmetic? Any advantages / disadvantages??.

One possible disadvantage that I saw in, "Accurizing the Factory Rifle", (I think) was that the reduced metal at the chamber is a weakness and hot loads might be problematic.
Just repeating what I read (somewhere).
Might be nothing to worry about with sensible loads and they sure do look good, don't they

[in2anity]

What is with some 45:70’s octagon barrels - cosmetic? Any advantages / disadvantages?? Longevity? They look to be 26” in that particular model - seems long for a guide gun.
I’ve purchased dies and projectiles and brass now - there is no going back...lol.

I think very broadly speaking, the octogans are slightly heavier and more rigid than their round counterparts.

For example here’s two marlin 30 cals, a standard 336 and a “”cowboy”:

336 vs CB

9FDF7277-B85B-4174-8A31-A23F3F2844DB.jpeg (266.21 KiB) Viewed 12488 times

Often the 45/70 barrels on a cowboy gun turn out a bit whippy though - big hole down the middle and all

[Gamerancher]

I owned a Marlin Cowboy in .45-70 with 26" octagonal barrel. The barrel gets a bit thin with a .45 cal hole bored in it. You could actually see an imprint of the front dovetail inside the bore. It shot just fine but I moved it on anyway, I just don't like Marlins.

[TassieTiger]

Thanks for heads up - might steer away from the good looking barrels. I’ll take longevity and accuracy over fashion. My driveway cam is now pointed at my letter box - wAiting for pta lol.

[in2anity]

I had an 1892 (got it right this time gamerancher) .44 mag, and it was also a light gun. Very thin barrel at the muzzle. The recoil wasn’t unpleasant, but it was a brute, as the 44mag is. The thing would get hot super quickly and the mirage would screw up my sight picture. Also the tang sight I added tended to kiss my specs from the recoil. So I moved it on. Shame, as it was a lovely gun. Went down to a 32-20 which is awesome for target shooting, for a variety of reasons.

[TassieTiger]

My research shows that Marlin have upped their quality - would they now be the pick of levers ?

[mickb]

Octagon barrels were easier to handmake way back in tbe day which is why they existed. Now they are mostly a traditional option and a lot of levers and calibres offer them. Some people feel they may be more accurate than round barrels, but lever actions are not inherently accurate anyway. Due to geometry they are certainly heavier than round barrels. Some people find them an advantage holding on target thanks to the weight versus a light short round barrel. Others dont like them as much due to the weight, and they are also fractionally slower to get into action. Octagonal barrels are also not all created equal. The tapered octagonal barrels on original winchesters and some modern repros for example are still quite light and very well balanced. The rossi 92 on the other hand is very heavy with little taper and is a lot more muzzle heavy at 24". You would really have to check or handle the rifles in person to see how well balanced the octagonals are, or check enough reviews to feel confident.

As to Marlin quality, it certainly has improved again and they seem to be doing well. Whether they are the pick of the guns, well its like brand x vs brand y, people have their favorites. The top end of finish and price is generally Winchester/Miroku and Uberti, which are 2k+ guns. The middle ground by comparison is usually Marlin/Henry, Chiappa is similar, and Rossi is at the bottom. But this does not necessarily relate to quality in all ways, nor accuracy. A rossi 92 can be rough from the factory but with some smoothing can be good shooters, and the 1892 is also the strongest lever action made. Rossi also made changes to the ramp for its pistol cartridge lever actions and thus will have a better chance of feeding specials( 44 special and 38 special) in the longer 44 mags and 357 chamber.. Winchester/mirokus and Brownings ( who made the best quality lever actions of all for a short period in the 1980's) are closer to originals and tend to choke on the shorter specials more often.

I would not buy another Chiappa again personally, do a full google search on "chiappa issues" and be prepared for some reading.

[Gamerancher]

Still made by Remington on a cost analysis not quality basis. Mine was still a JM made ( Pre-Remlin), was bloody accurate, I just didn't like it. Sold it to a mate who shot himself into the Aussie team with it, he loves it. Compared to my black-powder cartridge rifles, all barrels in lever guns are paper thin!

[in2anity]

Tassie how do you honestly see yourself using it? Will it be a range gun / plinker? Or are you seriously expecting to take it out bush?

[TassieTiger]

Tassie how do you honestly see yourself using it? Will it be a range gun / plinker? Or are you seriously expecting to take it out bush?

It will be a plinker more so than hunter - but, given the rounded capability of the cartridge - I see it as a gun I’d throw over the shoulder on dusk and go for a walk in the scrub and see what’s about. It’s rare I get shots over 150m in the main areas I hunt - and if I’m setting up across open paddocks, then I‘Ve got better options in the safe.

That being said - I’d like to make sure I have enough gun if I do come across a grizzly fallow...there have been occasions where I’ve taken the Adler for an evening walk but not taken a shot due to distance - and THAT is frustrating. The follow up shot capability means I might fill the freezer of wallaby in quick succession instead of extensive walks - so, yeah - it will be a toy / tool.

[in2anity]

So you could go with a full length rifle then, knowing mostly you wouldn't be lugging it around. The two I'd be looking at would be either the Marlin 1895CB or the Winchester 1886. I know I said it before, but to me the long sight radius on that 1895CB is very attractive. With a williams peep + appropriately sized arpeture, I'd be willing to bet I could achieve scores on par with what I'm currently doing with my No4 (with the 1895CB). We now have a stoopid 8mm rule at our range however, so that's a pipe dream at this stage...

Goes without saying, lots of aftermarket components for marlins also, and easy to scope. I do know that the Mirokus are a better overall fit-and-finish however. The 1886 would be "prettier". Basically a fancier rifle, which comes at a price.

[TassieTiger]

Thanks mate - appreciate the advice and insight.
If I could probe further? I couldn’t find brass In ”brass” but only nickel ? Is there any major differences? For some reason Nickel was cheaper than Remington brass and given I’ve thrown out some new Remington 223’s - I went with a hundred nickel.

[in2anity]

The nickel is meant to feed better, so I see it as “superior” to brass, I guess. I have some nickel 32h&r cases which funnily enough go through a marlin cowboy. Hard to say if it made any difference to reliability. It’s still brass under the nickel plating isn’t it?

[TassieTiger]

Yeah it’s brass that’s plated - so I’d assume the plating must wear out / crack eventually as to my knowledge nickel is not as malleable...and being plated, the brass itself cops most of the heat.

[in2anity]

I haven’t reloaded my nickel brass enough to see it die, so couldn’t comment on longevity. Pistol category might shed some light on that.

[mickb]

If you check on the big american forums with high volume pistol competitors or the cowboy shooters who want the slickest of everything , nickle makes no difference, but does tend to split case mouths earlier for long term reloading. This is pistol cases though at low pressures so we are talking dozens and dozens of firings. Not sure if this would be observed with 45-70 brass at casual levels.

[Gamerancher]

Nickel cases tend to be more brittle than plain brass and seem to split prematurely. I've got .357 nickle cases that have split on their second firing.
.45-70 cases tend to be spasmodic in terms of availability. Get Starline brass if you can, of the 1000 odd cases I've had, ( Winchester, Remington and Starline ), it seems to be the best of the bunch.
I run Starline brass in my .45-90 and it has been terrific brass from the get-go. After de-burring the flash-holes on 250 pieces, there wouldn't have been enough brass shavings to cover a match-head. Trimming to length yielded even less. Weight variance was less than 4 grains over the batch.

[bigrich]

Nickel cases tend to be more brittle than plain brass and seem to split prematurely. I've got .357 nickle cases that have split on their second firing.
.45-70 cases tend to be spasmodic in terms of availability. Get Starline brass if you can, of the 1000 odd cases I've had, ( Winchester, Remington and Starline ), it seems to be the best of the bunch.
I run Starline brass in my .45-90 and it has been terrific brass from the get-go. After de-burring the flash-holes on 250 pieces, there wouldn't have been enough brass shavings to cover a match-head. Trimming to length yielded even less. Weight variance was less than 4 grains over the batch.

so starline is decent qaulity brass GR ? a mate was telling me years ago it didn't have the best reputation . i've been buying starline in 358 win and it seems okay , but how do you find it for thickness and volume GR ? i haven't tested the volume of my brass, but as accurately as i can measure it seems thicker in wall thickness in the neck . if you can give me any insight into the starline brass it would be appreciated

[mickb]

Starline does have a reputation for being thicker in some calibres, but is still considered good brass. If you start a thread on 44 special for example on pistol forums, and I did a while ago. you will get a lot of positive votes but also a small sector saying the quality control and capacity of the Hornady brass is higher. That may have no bearing on other calibres, sizes etc.

[Gamerancher]

Yes, in .45-70 it is thicker, especially when compared to Winchester brass. Blokes chasing volume for black-powder will go for the Winchester case.
I've never had any issues with it being thicker. Then again I run RWS and Norma cases in some of my rifles and that tends to be thicker than the most Yankee stuff anyway.
I've got Starline cases in .32-20, .357Mag, .38-55, .44 Mag, .45-70 and .45-90.
I've never bothered with volume measurement, I only check weigh looking for any absolutely "out of spec" cases. Never found one in Starline brass but have in Remington.

[bigrich]

thanks for the feedback on the brass fellas . now , back to why taz must buy a 45-70 .......

[Gamerancher]

Because he may just run into a Bison on one of his walks and they taste great!!!!

[Gamerancher]

Here ya go Tassie, looks good and it 'aint a Remlin
22" Octagonal barrel, scope-ability ( if you're that way inclined ) lifetime warranty and made in the good 'ol U S of A!

https://www.usedguns.com.au/Product.aspx?p=177339
Calibre/Item: 45-70
Make: Henry
Model: H010CC
Action: Lever repeater
Serial No: WFFSCC002707
Condition: Excellent
Price: $1500

[Blr243]

Maybe he should buy one because I just did

[TassieTiger]

What did you buy blr?