Small test of rifle barrel heat effect

Bolt action rifles, lever action, pump action, self loading rifles and other miscellaneous longarms.

Small test of rifle barrel heat effect

Post by bladeracer » 07 Aug 2020, 8:02 pm

From EagleEye Hunting Gear, Sydney.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9ll8rmeqQ0

00:59 - Savage Axis .243Win
02:03 - Ruger Gunsite Scout .308Win
02:54 - Ruger M77 .270Win
03:59 - Tikka T3 SS Light .223Rem
05:00 - Kimber 84 Hunter 6.5mm Creedmoor

Edit: I listed the rifles tested so people don't have to watch the whole thing if they have no interest in the specifics.
Last edited by bladeracer on 08 Aug 2020, 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: Small test of rifle barrel heat effect

Post by boingk » 07 Aug 2020, 9:14 pm

Nice one. Love the Gunsight Scout from Ruger, too, they're a top looking bit of gear.

Cheers for the link!
Nil
boingk
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 682
Other

Re: Small test of rifle barrel heat effect

Post by in2anity » 07 Aug 2020, 9:49 pm

The guns faired worse than I expected, which is actually a bit of an eye opener w.r.t to my light comp rifles. I generally hold my rifles in very high esteem, perhaps I’m being harsh on them. My accurized No4, which has a swan barrel, is not far off those, in terms of consistency, which is to me surprising. I suppose that speaks for a swan, and that a rear locker probably isn’t as bad as the tacticool crew generally consider them to be...
Last edited by in2anity on 08 Aug 2020, 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
User avatar
in2anity
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3048
New South Wales

Re: Small test of rifle barrel heat effect

Post by Tiger650 » 08 Aug 2020, 12:16 am

Many years back I rapidly shot five 30 rd mags through an L1A2 auto FAL, it got really really hot but still shot minute of communist.
Blame the Dept of Defence, if we did not burn ammo we got less next year.
The CO told us on parade that we had shot of $1 mill of 105 arty ammo that year !
All in training and for no dead communists :cry:
Tiger650
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 451
Victoria

Re: Small test of rifle barrel heat effect

Post by straightshooter » 08 Aug 2020, 8:17 am

in2anity wrote:The guns faired worse than I expected, which is actually a bit of an eye opener w.r.t to my light comp rifles. I generally hold my rifles in very high esteem, perhaps I’m being harsh on them. My accurized No4, which has a swan barrel, is not far off those, in terms of consistency, which is to me surprising. I suppose that speaks for a swan, and that a rear locker probably isn’t as bad as the tacticool crew generally consider them to be...

It's not really an 'eye opener' if you have some grasp of statistical analysis and the mechanics of what is being demonstrated, notwithstanding the shooting ability of the demonstrator.
"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about."
"There is no expedient to which a man will not resort to avoid the real labor of thinking." Sir Joshua Reynolds
straightshooter
Warrant Officer C1
Warrant Officer C1
 
Posts: 1263
New South Wales

Re: Small test of rifle barrel heat effect

Post by SCJ429 » 08 Aug 2020, 9:28 am

Interesting vid there Blade, the guy comes up with no conclusions at the end to explain the cause of the groups opening up. Could he have use a more wobbly front rest? Funny where he shoots a fourth shot in one group that is over an inch away from the other three shot and he puts that one down to shooter error.

You often find that the longer the string of shots, the more fatigue the shooter suffers and he makes errors in his aiming. You also cannot see what the wind is doing during these groups. It is difficult to draw the conclusion that as the barrel gets hot, that it is causing the size of the group to open up. One thing is for sure, the more shots you fire the groups only get bigger, never smaller.

Could it be that all rifles would benefit from some load development and an experienced group shooter pulling the trigger?
SCJ429
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3207
New South Wales

Re: Small test of rifle barrel heat effect

Post by in2anity » 08 Aug 2020, 10:29 am

straightshooter wrote:It's not really an 'eye opener' if you have some grasp of statistical analysis and the mechanics of what is being demonstrated, notwithstanding the shooting ability of the demonstrator.

Maybe to you bud, but It’s a little surprising to me. I just expected “modern” sporters would hold a better hot group - those results are no better than the old service rifles we use on a regular basis. And we shoot upward of 30 rounds in a detail, in a short time.

And btw I got a D for my Statistics as part of my engineering degree, best not to assume :thumbsup:
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
User avatar
in2anity
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3048
New South Wales

Re: Small test of rifle barrel heat effect

Post by Wm.Traynor » 08 Aug 2020, 11:35 am

SCJ429 wrote: Could he have use a more wobbly front rest?


I wondered about that rest too, SCJ429. At first glance it looks light.....................but that might be its only virtue :unknown:
Wm.Traynor
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
 
Posts: 1644
Queensland

Re: Small test of rifle barrel heat effect

Post by Gamerancher » 08 Aug 2020, 12:48 pm

Some numpty shooting prone off a mat and a foam rest???? He's kidding isn't he? :unknown:
It takes a damned good shooter who can read conditions and has a solid benchrest set-up to keep 15 consecutive shots in any sort of tight group.
Barrel heat creates more problems with sight picture than anything else, due to the heat mirage it creates.
( Unless the rifle has sh!t bedding or the barrel's contacting the fore-end, etc,...etc..)
There are a multitude of reasons for inaccuracy, the actual shooter being #1
User avatar
Gamerancher
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
 
Posts: 1596
New South Wales

Re: Small test of rifle barrel heat effect

Post by in2anity » 08 Aug 2020, 12:54 pm

I'll play devil's advocate and say he could easily hold a sub 2-minute group at 100m using that setup, that is if the gun was up to it. Heck I know blokes who hold a group like those from the sitting position, with an accurized service rifle.
Last edited by in2anity on 08 Aug 2020, 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
User avatar
in2anity
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3048
New South Wales

Re: Small test of rifle barrel heat effect

Post by in2anity » 08 Aug 2020, 12:55 pm

Gamerancher wrote:It takes a damned good shooter who can read conditions and has a solid benchrest set-up to keep 15 consecutive shots in any sort of tight group.

Not sure how much "conditions" come into it at 100m :unknown: (with the cartridges he's using). I mean of course, they do, but to a meaningful degree relative to this test? I think not.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
User avatar
in2anity
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3048
New South Wales

Re: Small test of rifle barrel heat effect

Post by bladeracer » 08 Aug 2020, 2:08 pm

SCJ429 wrote:Interesting vid there Blade, the guy comes up with no conclusions at the end to explain the cause of the groups opening up. Could he have use a more wobbly front rest? Funny where he shoots a fourth shot in one group that is over an inch away from the other three shot and he puts that one down to shooter error.

You often find that the longer the string of shots, the more fatigue the shooter suffers and he makes errors in his aiming. You also cannot see what the wind is doing during these groups. It is difficult to draw the conclusion that as the barrel gets hot, that it is causing the size of the group to open up. One thing is for sure, the more shots you fire the groups only get bigger, never smaller.

Could it be that all rifles would benefit from some load development and an experienced group shooter pulling the trigger?


I certainly agree that this is no kind of scientific test, just a very quick example of the phenomenon :-)
For me, the big lesson is that all rifles are individuals and you need to do the testing yourself.

I can't see anything is gained by criticizing the shooters ability, he makes it very clear he is shooting very average rifles, factory ammo, and is aiming at the average hunter.

I don't agree that groups will _always_ get bigger. The barrel is a dynamic entity, every shot that travels down it has an effect within the steel, some are permanent, like erosion, fatigue and wear, others are more dynamic, like temperature. I believe it is cartainly possible to reach a point at which the temperature stresses within the steel can become closely aligned with the harmonics of the bullet. It might only be a cluster of two shots in a string of fifty, it might only happen after 30rds , or 130rds. It has zero practical application of course as it is virtually impossible to replicate such harmonic clusters at will.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: Small test of rifle barrel heat effect

Post by marksman » 08 Aug 2020, 4:01 pm

these tests were done IMHO fairly enough, same shooter same rest, conditions ect.... and he is right heat will affect how a barrel shoots
especially if the barrel is not stress relieved properly, why a match grade barrel will work better but you pay for it
most of these rifle barrels have forend pressure from the factory and that is the reason the shorter barrel is not as affected as much
the idea of forend pressure was to shorten the amount of barrel that will whip, ruger was one of the first to realise this and tikka plastic stocks are made this way, this technique is only good for shorter distances that would be shot while hunting eg... 200-250y so it may be ok for what you are doing
l see these rifles as walk around hunting rifles that are showing the precision l would expect
another good informative vid from you blade, thanks for posting it up
“If you do not read the newspapers you are uninformed. If you do read the newspapers you are misinformed”. Mark Twain
User avatar
marksman
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3660
Victoria

Re: Small test of rifle barrel heat effect

Post by Flyer » 08 Aug 2020, 4:13 pm

SCJ429 wrote:Interesting vid there Blade, the guy comes up with no conclusions at the end to explain the cause of the groups opening up. Could he have use a more wobbly front rest? Funny where he shoots a fourth shot in one group that is over an inch away from the other three shot and he puts that one down to shooter error.

You often find that the longer the string of shots, the more fatigue the shooter suffers and he makes errors in his aiming. You also cannot see what the wind is doing during these groups. It is difficult to draw the conclusion that as the barrel gets hot, that it is causing the size of the group to open up. One thing is for sure, the more shots you fire the groups only get bigger, never smaller.

Could it be that all rifles would benefit from some load development and an experienced group shooter pulling the trigger?

He did allude to the reasons throughout the video when he mentioned the length and thickensss of each barrel. As barrels heat up, harmonics change as the metal gets softer, which can introduce more flex that can change the exit point of the bullet.

Floating barrels are more prone to changes in harmonics than fully bedded barrels or those that use pressure points along the stock – a common technique used by some rifle manufacturers that places a small amount of upward pressure on the barrel towards the end of the stock that dampens harmonic flex and barrel twist torque rotation. CZ used to do this with their rimfires.

The Tikka shot pretty well even though it had a long sporter barrel. But it was also a 223 that doesn't generate as much heat as, say, the 270, 308 and 6.5CM used in the same demo. A 223 sporter barrel is going to be stiffer than a barrel with a bigger cailbre hole in it. Tikkas also have a lot of metal in the action that can draw heat away from the chamber and dissipate it a little faster (greater surface area).

This is propbably a good example of why different load development techniques can be employed depending on what you shoot. It's common to see shooters at the range waiting for their barrels to cool down between each shot when load developing to ensure the conditions are similar each time. But in competition, you may not have that much time, so sometimes it's better to load develop while mimicking the same conditions where you might shoot 3 rounds in 15 seconds, or 5 in 2 minutes or whatever conditions you normally shoot under.
The laws of physics do not apply to politics.
Flyer
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 392
-

Re: Small test of rifle barrel heat effect

Post by SCJ429 » 08 Aug 2020, 4:44 pm

Flyer wrote:

The Tikka shot pretty well even though it had a long sporter barrel. But it was also a 223 that doesn't generate as much heat as, say, the 270, 308 and 6.5CM used in the same demo. A 223 sporter barrel is going to be stiffer than a barrel with a bigger cailbre hole in it. Tikkas also have a lot of metal in the action that can draw heat away from the chamber and dissipate it a little faster (greater surface area).
.


Could it be that heat had little to do with the results he showed?

Could the little 223 be easier for him to shoot well? Less fatiguing and a more accurate load in the first place? Could he have produced the same results if he shot slowly or shot them as quickly as he could? Could the Tikka be the most accurate rifle in the vid, and the ammo produced the lowest ES and the conditions were the most constant when he shot its group?
SCJ429
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3207
New South Wales

Re: Small test of rifle barrel heat effect

Post by SCJ429 » 08 Aug 2020, 4:57 pm

bladeracer wrote:
I don't agree that groups will _always_ get bigger. The barrel is a dynamic entity, every shot that travels down it has an effect within the steel, some are permanent, like erosion, fatigue and wear, others are more dynamic, like temperature. I believe it is cartainly possible to reach a point at which the temperature stresses within the steel can become closely aligned with the harmonics of the bullet. It might only be a cluster of two shots in a string of fifty, it might only happen after 30rds , or 130rds. It has zero practical application of course as it is virtually impossible to replicate such harmonic clusters at will.


I will clarify that Blade, your group can either stay the same size or get bigger, it can never get smaller by firing more shots. You are introducing more variables as the shot count increases. If you shoot 100 5 shot groups and 100 15 shot groups, the 15 shot groups average size will be bigger.

Try to lower your ES by shooting more shots, it cannot be done.
SCJ429
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3207
New South Wales

Re: Small test of rifle barrel heat effect

Post by Flyer » 08 Aug 2020, 5:22 pm

SCJ429 wrote:
Flyer wrote:

The Tikka shot pretty well even though it had a long sporter barrel. But it was also a 223 that doesn't generate as much heat as, say, the 270, 308 and 6.5CM used in the same demo. A 223 sporter barrel is going to be stiffer than a barrel with a bigger cailbre hole in it. Tikkas also have a lot of metal in the action that can draw heat away from the chamber and dissipate it a little faster (greater surface area).
.


Could it be that heat had little to do with the results he showed?

Could the little 223 be easier for him to shoot well? Less fatiguing and a more accurate load in the first place? Could he have produced the same results if he shot slowly or shot them as quickly as he could? Could the Tikka be the most accurate rifle in the vid, and the ammo produced the lowest ES and the conditions were the most constant when he shot its group?

All things possible. But you also can't discount the fact that 223 generates significantly less heat than the others. Tikka actions are also very stiff. Whenever there are variables there are . . . variables. But the laws of metalurgy don't change. Heat affects metal. All barrels have harmonics. Ergo, heat affects harmonics. I don't see how that can be left out of the equation :unknown:
The laws of physics do not apply to politics.
Flyer
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 392
-

Re: Small test of rifle barrel heat effect

Post by Flyer » 08 Aug 2020, 5:33 pm

This isn't 15 shots, or even 10 shots. It's 6 shots from a 6.5 CM at 100m shot continuously as I loaded and sighted in.

IMG_2330.JPG
IMG_2330.JPG (58.72 KiB) Viewed 4823 times


No doubt it's a good rifle: Fully floated Sako barrel, alloy bedding system, hand loads, inherently accurate calibre etc. But it's still only a sporter barrel. However it is fluted, so it has more surface area and does cool faster between shots.

IMG_2320.JPG
IMG_2320.JPG (325.57 KiB) Viewed 4823 times
The laws of physics do not apply to politics.
Flyer
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 392
-

Re: Small test of rifle barrel heat effect

Post by bladeracer » 08 Aug 2020, 5:34 pm

SCJ429 wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
I don't agree that groups will _always_ get bigger. The barrel is a dynamic entity, every shot that travels down it has an effect within the steel, some are permanent, like erosion, fatigue and wear, others are more dynamic, like temperature. I believe it is cartainly possible to reach a point at which the temperature stresses within the steel can become closely aligned with the harmonics of the bullet. It might only be a cluster of two shots in a string of fifty, it might only happen after 30rds , or 130rds. It has zero practical application of course as it is virtually impossible to replicate such harmonic clusters at will.


I will clarify that Blade, your group can either stay the same size or get bigger, it can never get smaller by firing more shots. You are introducing more variables as the shot count increases. If you shoot 100 5 shot groups and 100 15 shot groups, the 15 shot groups average size will be bigger.

Try to lower your ES by shooting more shots, it cannot be done.


I get you now, but I, and the shooter, were looking at clusters of shots within the group as they were fired, not so much the overall group size.

I should note that I specifically did not put this in the target shooting forum because it is unrelated to target shooting, this is purely aimed at hunting accuracy with hunting rifles.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: Small test of rifle barrel heat effect

Post by mickb » 09 Aug 2020, 5:06 am

its funny when you spend so much time with lever actions and you see bolt action guys fretting about the terrible accuracy of 3-4MOA :D
mickb
Warrant Officer C2
Warrant Officer C2
 
Posts: 1095
Other

Re: Small test of rifle barrel heat effect

Post by in2anity » 09 Aug 2020, 9:09 am

True mickb. No many shooters can realize beyond 3-4 moa from offhand though :D But you sure appreciate a nice bolt gun, when you come back from lever-land. My 223 is stupidly accurate, and very cheap to run (compared with the 30-cals). I know ALL error stems from me during a telo match.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
User avatar
in2anity
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3048
New South Wales

Re: Small test of rifle barrel heat effect

Post by SCJ429 » 09 Aug 2020, 9:24 am

in2anity wrote:True mickb. No many shooters can realize beyond 3-4 moa from offhand though :D But you sure appreciate a nice bolt gun, when you come back from lever-land. My 223 is stupidly accurate, and very cheap to run (compared with the 30-cals). I know ALL error stems from me during a telo match.

Not all errors can come from the shooter, the rifles inaccuracy and environmental factors contribute. If the rifle can only shoot 3MOA and the shooters errors are 3 MOA, then it is likely that the result will be at least 6 MOA.
SCJ429
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3207
New South Wales

Re: Small test of rifle barrel heat effect

Post by in2anity » 09 Aug 2020, 10:19 am

SCJ429 wrote:Not all errors can come from the shooter, the rifles inaccuracy and environmental factors contribute. If the rifle can only shoot 3MOA and the shooters errors are 3 MOA, then it is likely that the result will be at least 6 MOA.

Righto you got me on a technicality, again :P point was I’m far from worried about the precision and consistency of my 223 though...

Anyway, in your example wouldn’t it be 3+(3/2)=4.5moa spread? i.e:

spread.jpg
spread.jpg (52.02 KiB) Viewed 4769 times
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
User avatar
in2anity
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3048
New South Wales

Re: Small test of rifle barrel heat effect

Post by SCJ429 » 09 Aug 2020, 12:40 pm

You are dead right, I was thinking that when I posted it. Sometimes the errors would be compounded and sometimes the could cancel each other out to some degree.

I think that the temperature of the barrel may contribute to the size of a group to a degree but other factors have much more of an influence. I do not see properly bedded rifles having issues where the groups blow out to 3 MOA due to barrel temperature. Of all the things that can induce vertical, I don't see this one as the main culprit.
SCJ429
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3207
New South Wales

Re: Small test of rifle barrel heat effect

Post by in2anity » 09 Aug 2020, 1:02 pm

Easy to make an arithmetic mistake, I'm the first to admit that SCJ :drinks:

(Arguably) I actually think in some cases, particularly on older designs with tightly fitted forends, groups can move, but indeed then come in with the heat. The reason being, as the barrel and action heat, they tend to expand and tighten up in their (usually timber) bedding, This will often move, and possibly stabilise the POI (as things become really tight)

Indeed in a target realm, these sorts of issues should try to be accurized away, via different bedding approaches, such as cork or a more modern approach RTV silicone. Nothing worse than a wandering zero :crazy: Obviously NOT a consideration for modern, free floated designs, in a modern bed (like the guns we see here, or on the F or fullbore range). Perks of technological advancement :drinks:
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
User avatar
in2anity
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3048
New South Wales

Re: Small test of rifle barrel heat effect

Post by TassieTiger » 22 Aug 2020, 10:43 am

Flyer wrote:This isn't 15 shots, or even 10 shots. It's 6 shots from a 6.5 CM at 100m shot continuously as I loaded and sighted in.

IMG_2330.JPG


No doubt it's a good rifle: Fully floated Sako barrel, alloy bedding system, hand loads, inherently accurate calibre etc. But it's still only a sporter barrel. However it is fluted, so it has more surface area and does cool faster between shots.

IMG_2320.JPG


Is that muzzle blast “grey” around the holes on that target ? Lol. I swear it is...what, did you “miss” a couple from a few feet, to make it look “real”? I guess this means your claims of being able to out shoot anyone on the forum ring true...sigh.
Tikka .260 (Z5 5x25/52)
Steyr Pro Varmint .223 - VX 3
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22 (vtex 4-12, bush 3-9)
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
Adler a110 reddot
Sauer 30-06 - VX 3
Howa 300 win mag. SHV 5-20/56
Marlin SBL 45/70
TassieTiger
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3704
Tasmania

Re: Small test of rifle barrel heat effect

Post by SCJ429 » 22 Aug 2020, 3:32 pm

What are you on about Tassie, the black smear as the bullet wipes itself against the paper? You might need some new spectacles...
SCJ429
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3207
New South Wales

Re: Small test of rifle barrel heat effect

Post by TassieTiger » 22 Aug 2020, 3:35 pm

SCJ429 wrote:What are you on about Tassie, the black smear as the bullet wipes itself against the paper? You might need some new spectacles...


Oops - my mistake :sarcasm:
Tikka .260 (Z5 5x25/52)
Steyr Pro Varmint .223 - VX 3
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22 (vtex 4-12, bush 3-9)
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
Adler a110 reddot
Sauer 30-06 - VX 3
Howa 300 win mag. SHV 5-20/56
Marlin SBL 45/70
TassieTiger
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3704
Tasmania


Back to top
 
Return to Centerfire rifles