in2anity wrote:The guns faired worse than I expected, which is actually a bit of an eye opener w.r.t to my light comp rifles. I generally hold my rifles in very high esteem, perhaps I’m being harsh on them. My accurized No4, which has a swan barrel, is not far off those, in terms of consistency, which is to me surprising. I suppose that speaks for a swan, and that a rear locker probably isn’t as bad as the tacticool crew generally consider them to be...
straightshooter wrote:It's not really an 'eye opener' if you have some grasp of statistical analysis and the mechanics of what is being demonstrated, notwithstanding the shooting ability of the demonstrator.
SCJ429 wrote: Could he have use a more wobbly front rest?
Gamerancher wrote:It takes a damned good shooter who can read conditions and has a solid benchrest set-up to keep 15 consecutive shots in any sort of tight group.
SCJ429 wrote:Interesting vid there Blade, the guy comes up with no conclusions at the end to explain the cause of the groups opening up. Could he have use a more wobbly front rest? Funny where he shoots a fourth shot in one group that is over an inch away from the other three shot and he puts that one down to shooter error.
You often find that the longer the string of shots, the more fatigue the shooter suffers and he makes errors in his aiming. You also cannot see what the wind is doing during these groups. It is difficult to draw the conclusion that as the barrel gets hot, that it is causing the size of the group to open up. One thing is for sure, the more shots you fire the groups only get bigger, never smaller.
Could it be that all rifles would benefit from some load development and an experienced group shooter pulling the trigger?
SCJ429 wrote:Interesting vid there Blade, the guy comes up with no conclusions at the end to explain the cause of the groups opening up. Could he have use a more wobbly front rest? Funny where he shoots a fourth shot in one group that is over an inch away from the other three shot and he puts that one down to shooter error.
You often find that the longer the string of shots, the more fatigue the shooter suffers and he makes errors in his aiming. You also cannot see what the wind is doing during these groups. It is difficult to draw the conclusion that as the barrel gets hot, that it is causing the size of the group to open up. One thing is for sure, the more shots you fire the groups only get bigger, never smaller.
Could it be that all rifles would benefit from some load development and an experienced group shooter pulling the trigger?
Flyer wrote:
The Tikka shot pretty well even though it had a long sporter barrel. But it was also a 223 that doesn't generate as much heat as, say, the 270, 308 and 6.5CM used in the same demo. A 223 sporter barrel is going to be stiffer than a barrel with a bigger cailbre hole in it. Tikkas also have a lot of metal in the action that can draw heat away from the chamber and dissipate it a little faster (greater surface area).
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bladeracer wrote:
I don't agree that groups will _always_ get bigger. The barrel is a dynamic entity, every shot that travels down it has an effect within the steel, some are permanent, like erosion, fatigue and wear, others are more dynamic, like temperature. I believe it is cartainly possible to reach a point at which the temperature stresses within the steel can become closely aligned with the harmonics of the bullet. It might only be a cluster of two shots in a string of fifty, it might only happen after 30rds , or 130rds. It has zero practical application of course as it is virtually impossible to replicate such harmonic clusters at will.
SCJ429 wrote:Flyer wrote:
The Tikka shot pretty well even though it had a long sporter barrel. But it was also a 223 that doesn't generate as much heat as, say, the 270, 308 and 6.5CM used in the same demo. A 223 sporter barrel is going to be stiffer than a barrel with a bigger cailbre hole in it. Tikkas also have a lot of metal in the action that can draw heat away from the chamber and dissipate it a little faster (greater surface area).
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Could it be that heat had little to do with the results he showed?
Could the little 223 be easier for him to shoot well? Less fatiguing and a more accurate load in the first place? Could he have produced the same results if he shot slowly or shot them as quickly as he could? Could the Tikka be the most accurate rifle in the vid, and the ammo produced the lowest ES and the conditions were the most constant when he shot its group?
SCJ429 wrote:bladeracer wrote:
I don't agree that groups will _always_ get bigger. The barrel is a dynamic entity, every shot that travels down it has an effect within the steel, some are permanent, like erosion, fatigue and wear, others are more dynamic, like temperature. I believe it is cartainly possible to reach a point at which the temperature stresses within the steel can become closely aligned with the harmonics of the bullet. It might only be a cluster of two shots in a string of fifty, it might only happen after 30rds , or 130rds. It has zero practical application of course as it is virtually impossible to replicate such harmonic clusters at will.
I will clarify that Blade, your group can either stay the same size or get bigger, it can never get smaller by firing more shots. You are introducing more variables as the shot count increases. If you shoot 100 5 shot groups and 100 15 shot groups, the 15 shot groups average size will be bigger.
Try to lower your ES by shooting more shots, it cannot be done.
in2anity wrote:True mickb. No many shooters can realize beyond 3-4 moa from offhand though But you sure appreciate a nice bolt gun, when you come back from lever-land. My 223 is stupidly accurate, and very cheap to run (compared with the 30-cals). I know ALL error stems from me during a telo match.
SCJ429 wrote:Not all errors can come from the shooter, the rifles inaccuracy and environmental factors contribute. If the rifle can only shoot 3MOA and the shooters errors are 3 MOA, then it is likely that the result will be at least 6 MOA.
Flyer wrote:This isn't 15 shots, or even 10 shots. It's 6 shots from a 6.5 CM at 100m shot continuously as I loaded and sighted in.
No doubt it's a good rifle: Fully floated Sako barrel, alloy bedding system, hand loads, inherently accurate calibre etc. But it's still only a sporter barrel. However it is fluted, so it has more surface area and does cool faster between shots.
SCJ429 wrote:What are you on about Tassie, the black smear as the bullet wipes itself against the paper? You might need some new spectacles...