The 300 blackout sucks, or does it....

[in2anity]

They’ll never be a benchrest caliber, but check out the OP (after a 1:10” conversion). I use mine for close range 3-P comp and it shoots better than I can. The wind plays havoc when you stretch it - you just need to pick your days, else you’re up against it.

[Ferrisweil]

I was really surprised when people started using 300 blackout in Australia.
I just couldn't understand why you would when it's so difficult to legally obtain a suppressor here.

Whenever I read about loading for subsonic I think hmmmm

All that said, congratulations on getting yours dialled in

If you're going to use a suppressor you don't need subsonic ammo, without a suppressor is where subsonic ammo really shines.

Sorry Blade, but gonna disagree with you completely here. A suppressor doesn’t really make a huge difference IMO when using “regular” ammo. The whole point is to make it “quiet” or suppress the sound. Sure it does marginally, but it works more as a muzzle brake that can be used without muffs.
If you really want a suppressor to shine AS A SUPPRESSOR, use it with subsonic ammo. Makes an awesome difference with sound, especially in your small calibres when hunting. It can work well on 308’s etc but even with a subsonic ammo, it will still spook nearby game.
In my experience, and when the opportunities presented to use this gear overseas, the most benefit comes from using a suppressor with subsonic ammo.

[wanneroo]

Mate my go to powder for 300BLK is AR2205 which I believe is the equivalent to H110.
I do have a tin of Win296 which also goes ok however the ADI AR2205 works a treat.

H110 and W296 I believe are the same.

When I experimented with H110 I had issues. However I was loading heavier bullets at the time. But I am going to revisit H110/W296. I only have a small amount from years ago so I need to source another container.

[wanneroo]

As most of you probably know 300 black out was designed to hunt down Osama bin laden so it was never meant to make tight groups it was a powerful close quartets round that fit into current 5.56 magazines. I'm sure some good hand loads would get accuracy but don't expect much from it.

I'd actually expect a lot out of it. The internet meme about 300 Blackout was "it was optimized for a 9 inch barrel to shoot subsonic suppressed".

We now know that yes that may have been the original intention, but those days are long gone. Data shows performance can match 7.62x39. We now have 300 Blackout specific bullets and powders and development goes on every year to max it out.

I even have a friend that was shooting it out to 600 yards for fun.

[wanneroo]

Sorry Blade, but gonna disagree with you completely here. A suppressor doesn’t really make a huge difference IMO when using “regular” ammo. The whole point is to make it “quiet” or suppress the sound. Sure it does marginally, but it works more as a muzzle brake that can be used without muffs.
If you really want a suppressor to shine AS A SUPPRESSOR, use it with subsonic ammo. Makes an awesome difference with sound, especially in your small calibres when hunting. It can work well on 308’s etc but even with a subsonic ammo, it will still spook nearby game.
In my experience, and when the opportunities presented to use this gear overseas, the most benefit comes from using a suppressor with subsonic ammo.

I've shot 300 Blackout suppressed with supers and subs and like with any suppressor, you are looking at a 30 db reduction in sound typically. Of course the supers still have the super crack but it still reduces the sound. Eventually I am moving towards acquiring suppressors for all my modern rifles, just to reduce the impact on my ears.

I have an extensive back catalog of videos of me shooting machine guns, so eventually will get them on Youtube over time. And that includes some 300 Blackout stuff.

[in2anity]

Data shows performance can match 7.62x39. We now have 300 Blackout specific bullets and powders and development goes on every year to max it out.

I even have a friend that was shooting it out to 600 yards for fun.

No matter how fancy the pill, the blk never matches the rusky. The rusky has 50% more case capacity. And it reflects in the scores on the blustering days. It’s just there’s a tonne more options in .308” cal.

[SCJ429]

[i]A good example of the wobble you are describing is an out of balance wheel on your car which is fine at speeds under 60 MPH but when you go over this speed you feel the vibration through the steering wheel. If your bullet jacket has a little runout, you will find an RPM where it begins to become unstable.

This example is a complete misconception, as the unbalance forces are constrained by and transmitted to the axle. In the case of a bullet it is constrained by the barrel to rotate around it’s center of form but on release from the barrel it immediately rotates around it’s center of mass. This sudden translation is what initially sets up the pitch and yaw in the bullet which then damps in flight if the bullet is (sufficiently) stable.

Centrifugal forces increase to the point where your tyre will fall apart when you rotate it more quickly, this may occur at 60 mph or at 600 mph. If you rotated the tyre in the vacuum of space, not attached to an axle, at the speed of sound it would still come apart. In the same way you can pull a bullet apart with centrifugal forces, sometimes at 400,000 rpm and others at 1000,000 rpm. There is always an optimal range to rotate a bullet and using an rpm outside of this range, too slow or too fast, will cost you some accuracy.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/200 ... stability/

[in2anity]

Yes I agree SCJ - I know my use of the expression “over-stabilizing” has been widely criticized here, but my point was I’m fairly confident the 1:7” was tighter than optimal for the 125gr super. I.e. too much spin. Once I changed to the 1:10”, which is seemingly ideal for that combo, groups came in. It’s a sub moa gun now. At distance, it was not before. Provided you read the wind right... that is.

[SCJ429]

I am sure everyone understood what you were describing and you have to wonder about the motivation behind some responses. The need to feel superior to some person you have never met is interesting to say the least and I wonder if they try this approach face to face.

I have experienced bullet blow up when using light bullets in my 243, as soon as I went over 4,000 fps the bullets came apart and never arrived at the target. I wonder if I had a 1:12 or a 1:14 twist barrel, that the bullet would arrive intact at those speeds. No real need to shoot them that fast but just a bit of fun.

The 300 Blackout is a fun platform to experiment with, if you are having fun with it more power to you. Better than sitting at home trying to impress people on the Internet with a perceived superior intellect.

[wanneroo]

Data shows performance can match 7.62x39. We now have 300 Blackout specific bullets and powders and development goes on every year to max it out.

I even have a friend that was shooting it out to 600 yards for fun.

No matter how fancy the pill, the blk never matches the rusky. The rusky has 50% more case capacity. And it reflects in the scores on the blustering days. It’s just there’s a tonne more options in .308” cal.

Some of the data I have seen Blackout is getting up there with 7.62x39 on energy on target.

These days with what's available I'd say if you want to shoot for distance, 6.5 Grendel and 6 ARC are probably the better options than 300 BO or 7.62x39.

[in2anity]

Some of the data I have seen Blackout is getting up there with 7.62x39 on energy on target.

These days with what's available I'd say if you want to shoot for distance, 6.5 Grendel and 6 ARC are probably the better options than 300 BO or 7.62x39.

Club level we shoot all kinds of stuff, up to 300m, from 3-P service sling. The rusky, and the blk are notably harder to use on the 300m mound, but the rusky is slightly faster and bucks the wind better. But as SCJ said, it’s all a bit of fun. The blackout will still shoot Vs from 200m sitting. Of course trophy shoots and bigger comps you opt for more optimal like a Swede or 762, or 303 even, etc etc. The 6.5cm is just a long throated Swede, same doo doo, different smell. Just sayin.

[in2anity]

Well said, could not agree more SCJ -

[wanneroo]

Club level we shoot all kinds of stuff, up to 300m, from 3-P service sling. The rusky, and the blk are notably harder to use on the 300m mound, but the rusky is slightly faster and bucks the wind better. But as SCJ said, it’s all a bit of fun. The blackout will still shoot Vs from 200m sitting. Of course trophy shoots and bigger comps you opt for more optimal like a Swede or 762, or 303 even, etc etc. The 6.5cm is just a long throated Swede, same doo doo, different smell. Just sayin.

Well I have a bunch of AR lowers sitting around I need to build on, so I might look at 6 ARC or 6.5 Grendel so I can range out if I need to with more energy on target than 5.56 or 300 Blackout while still having weight savings and portability compared to 308 rifles. I don't think 7.62x39 or 300 Blackout were ever thought to be great at distance but of course there are some that make it happen.

[in2anity]

Well I have a bunch of AR lowers sitting around I need to build on, so I might look at 6 ARC or 6.5 Grendel so I can range out if I need to with more energy on target than 5.56 or 300 Blackout while still having weight savings and portability compared to 308 rifles. I don't think 7.62x39 or 300 Blackout were ever thought to be great at distance but of course there are some that make it happen.

Sure, if you intend on shooting it off a rest - then yeah, that's a no-brainer. Of course those will outshoot the blk and rusky. But for standing offhand, rapid-fire/snap matches, where the V bull is typically 6" across, and you only have 4 seconds to break the shot. Or out in the brush, for quick shots generally under 150m, the 1/2" moa extra accuracy is not nearly as significant... horses for courses. meanwhile the blackout is good because it’s highly cheap, convenient and engrossing to handload for... especially if you’re a regular 223 consumer

[JimTom]

Must be quite a popular AR cartridge in the US as apparently 300AAC ammo is in quite short supply at present. For those that buy factory ammo in Australia, have you noticed this? Can any of our US contributors verify this is the case in the US?

[wanneroo]

Must be quite a popular AR cartridge in the US as apparently 300AAC ammo is in quite short supply at present. For those that buy factory ammo in Australia, have you noticed this? Can any of our US contributors verify this is the case in the US?

Yes like many calibers 300 Blackout is short on the shelves here. If it is for sale it's at about $2US a round.

[JimTom]

2 bucks a pop is getting steep.

[Blr243]

I saw to diff types of factory blackout Ammo on specI’ll recently it was less than a buck per shot. We been lucky

[Blr243]

What is this rusky thing people speak of?

[JimTom]

7.62x39 Russian

[Blr243]

Like ak47 ?

[JimTom]

Yep that’s the one mate.

[deye243]

Let's be honest, the 300aac/"blackout" is not really a sub-moa cartridge. You can scour the interwebs and find anectdotes about "my sub-moa 300blk group" but mostly people are squeezing out around 1.5 moa, at closeish distances. Really, they are designed for a heavy subsonic FMJ, out of an AR style platform. Not exactly the most valuable traits down-under...

Nevertheless, shooting only light supers, I like the blackout for two main reasons, 1] they are cheap to run (~18grs of slow pistol powder under any budget 125gr 308 pill) 2] I can reanimate my dead 223 comp brass to 300blk. There are other reasons also, but are moot points compared against other calibers.

I have a Ruger American Ranch rifle in 300blk which I've shot quite a bit. There are whole threads on here dedicated to that gun. Long and short of it; whilst it's great for what it is, I found that while it was almost sub-moa at 50m, it was not sub-moa at 100m and beyond. Furthermore it was not consistent under match-like conditions, and tended to drift when hot, which is becomes bleedingly obvious at moderate ranges. I had the hankering to get it to shoot better.

My theory of the shortcomings of the factory 300 blackout are as follows:

a) The tight 1:7" twist barrel was over-stabilising the light 125gr supersonics, meaning any "wobble" was exaggerated once the pill moved beyond 50m.
b) The long throat designed to handle up to a 220gr monster meant the 125gr pill was jumping well over 100thou to engage with the lands.
c) Tight neck tension seemed paramount in achieving consistency; an undersized collet-die mandrel and crimp was required for peak accuracy. Perhaps this is because of the long jump, i.e. point b).

Given those observations, I decided to reconfigure my blackout to suite specifically a 125gr supersonic load. Looking at the specs for the AK-47; it sports a 1:9.45" twist with 16" barrel shooting roughly a 122gr pill. I thought the Ruskies were probably on to something.

So I ordered a custom barrel from Lothar-Walther to match the existing contour, only with a slower 1:10" twist, and a custom short-throat reamer from Pacific Tool & Gauge to match the 125gr pill.

10 months later (thanks COVID), the project is now complete:

IMG_2140.JPG

IMG_2141.JPG

I took it out on Saturday and I shot crimpless FLS handloads on the 100m mound, off the bags, with an INSANE 30-40km/h fishtailing tail-wind (the hardest kind of windage) and here's the result:

IMG_2132.jpg

Now that my friends, is a true sub-moa 300 blackout. This little girl will be accompanying me more often to the Telescopic matches, and is my go-to hunting rifle (at 3.7kg fully kitted including sling).

IMG_2133.jpg

The fact you think that Moa at 50 is different than what Moa is at 100 means you have a lot to learn it's the same thing Moa is minute of angle at any range moa at 100 yards is 1.047 of an inch 1 Moa at 1000 yards is 10.47 of an inch

[in2anity]

The fact you think that Moa at 50 is different than what Moa is at 100 means you have a lot to learn it's the same thing Moa is minute of angle at any range moa at 100 yards is 1.047 of an inch 1 Moa at 1000 yards is 10.47 of an inch

So if your 22lr is shooting sub moa at 50 yards, it must shoot sub moa at 1000 yards correct? There’s a big difference between theoretical and actual my dude... stability issues are exaggerated with distance, not to mention environmental factors.

Anyway, why so angry deye? Is your day really so terrible you feel the urge to come in with a flame like that? Do you hate OPs do you?

[Larry]

After reading all these posts. I think it has confirmed that the Blackout sucks. It has a very narrow and specific use that is not a use that a sporting shooter would have.

[in2anity]

After reading all these posts. I think it has confirmed that the Blackout sucks. It has a very narrow and specific use that is not a use that a sporting shooter would have.

There are certainly more accurate, flexible and cheaper options. And the 762x39 is notably better in that category. Still, for the handloader, it leaves lots of meat to chew on. Lots of fun to be had

[wanneroo]

After reading all these posts. I think it has confirmed that the Blackout sucks. It has a very narrow and specific use that is not a use that a sporting shooter would have.

Well I have to say I have yet to find a cartridge that "sucks". I shoot everything from 32 ACP to 50 Action Express to .223 to 50 cal.

I find people online that proclaim 300 Blackout "sucks", at least so far in my experience or memory, have never owned it or used it for any length of time. I don't see people adopt it and then six months or a year later go, you know that 300 Blackout just sucks. I'm sure there is someone out there but I have yet to meet them.

While other cartridges come and go, seems like there is a new "hot" cartridge every year, 300 Blackout has had some staying power and I don't see it going anywhere. It can use just about any 308 bullet, which are readily available. The butt end of the case is standard .223/5.56, so you can even form your own cases if you want out of range brass. For manufacturers it's easy for them if they sell a .223 rifle, all they have to do is switch barrels. For the end user you have a 30 cal bullet in a more compact case in a .223 sized and weighted rifle.

[JimTom]

After reading all these posts. I think it has confirmed that the Blackout sucks. It has a very narrow and specific use that is not a use that a sporting shooter would have.

Being an owner and reloader for Blackout, I disagree mate. Each to their own though. I will admit it is not as versatile as some other cartridges however it has its uses.

[JimTom]

I honestly cannot name one cartridge that “sucks”. I reckon they’re are all awesome in their own way.

[in2anity]

When you shoot comp with rifles over a century old, which would be lucky to go south of 2moa, from the service sling a (true) 1 minute shooter seems like a snipers rifle. It’s all a matter of perspective, and intended application.