If it's not broken, don't fix it.

Bolt action rifles, lever action, pump action, self loading rifles and other miscellaneous longarms.

If it's not broken, don't fix it.

Post by NTSOG » 30 Dec 2020, 9:40 am

G'day,

On Christmas Day I decided, in a moment of stupidity, to clean the bore of my old Anschutz [.222 Rem.] with ATN 4K night sight which has been shooting with great accuracy out to 180 yards and usually gives groups just under one MOA at 100 yards off my hunting rest. In short it did not need cleaning. I realised my error a couple of days later when I shot a fox sitting facing me at about 75-80 yards - and wounded it in its right shoulder. Suffice to say it took off and collapsed at about 90 yards to my right. I waited a bit then yelled. It raised its head and I missed it completely. It staggered off to about 130 yards where it gave me a clear body shot and I missed again. Finally I stalked up close and shot it at point blank range.

I went out to check zero at 100 yards yesterday and the rifle was shooting two inches to left of my POA - the group of three shots [two touching] was about 1" and all at the same height and level with my POA. I corrected the sight and took five shots. The group was 3/4" and correct in terms of X axis and in line with the POA, but now 2 1/2 inches below my POA. I knew the rifle was accurate but it was not hitting just where I aimed it.

Is it normal for an accurate rifle to show such variations after the bore has been cleaned and does it take a number of shots for it to 'settle' in terms of zero? My last shot yesterday with adjusted reticle was just about dead centre. I'll go out later today and shoot more to see if the current zero adjustment holds or it needs a few more rounds through it to stabilise.

Jim
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Re: If it's not broken, don't fix it.

Post by Wm.Traynor » 30 Dec 2020, 3:01 pm

The fact that the second test group (after the group 2" left) was so far out after only the windage adjustment was made, indicates a crook scope. You could try the "box test", or install another scope. It's a huge nuisance but it's the only way you will prove what is wrong. Of course, the scope ring screws and mount screws should also be checked first, I neglected to mention :oops: Maybe the take-down bolts too.
Good luck mate :) :thumbsup:
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Re: If it's not broken, don't fix it.

Post by Skinna » 30 Dec 2020, 5:10 pm

I had a similar episode recently that i mentioned in another thread.

Was gut & rear end shooting bunnies at 250-300 yds--that equates to 4"-6" misses or the rifle going from half MOA over the bonnet to 12 MOA between firings :wtf: , & was also missing shots at 100 with another rifle where i was trying to hit them in the brain :unknown: i was left scratching my head. Turned out it was the action screws--& was on 2 rifles as well...!!whats the chances of that happening in one hunt :crazy: one had loosened off, but wasnt "loose" by any stretch.!!, & the other had worked its way to less tension as a result--but again, neither were "loose" But was obviously loose enough to allow a little movement of the barreled action in the stock under recoil.

Check everything on the rifle, from all optics attachments, action screw tension & how the barreled action sits in the stock.
Ive had issue once before with Tikka T3 not performing correctly after a good strip & clean, & it turns out the recoil lug wasnt seated quite right so i was getting weird results.
So now I give mine a whack on the ground with the butt holding the barrel while i tension the screws up (with part tension) then do up to required torque, just to ensure recoil lug arrangement is seated nicely.

Short of that, how old is the barrel...?
I got the most amazing groups with an old 22-250 just before it went awal & the barrel was finished.

Hope you get it sorted. :thumbsup:
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Re: If it's not broken, don't fix it.

Post by NTSOG » 30 Dec 2020, 6:11 pm

Thanks Skinna and W. T.: I hadn't considered the various screws and bolts. It is an old rifle: a 1532 Anschutz, but I don't know the date of manufacture. It had quite a lot of use before I bought it.

I've just come in from testing again out the back paddock. It was 'off' from the last 'on target' shot yesterday evening: POI 3+ inches high and 2.5" left of POA! I adjusted the reticle settings and got it hitting more or less on my POA with two 1.25" groups, but then the last 6 shots were all over the place.

I'll check all the bolts and screws later this evening. i have found both my BRNO Mod. 2 and my Anschutz .22 WMR are both sensitive to tension of the action screws.

Jim
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Re: If it's not broken, don't fix it.

Post by Diamond Jim » 31 Dec 2020, 1:52 am

It seems something has come loose and I can't imagine it has anything to do with cleaning the bore - unless the barrel is so shot out it was only the crud that was keeping it on target - and I won't believe that's the case - unless it's proved to be the cause.
Check every screw. Try a different scope. A rifle doesn't go from a "shooter" to a "shotgun" with no reason.
For whatever it's worth, I clean mine after every session/trip without fail and I'm yet to have the experience you describe.
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Re: If it's not broken, don't fix it.

Post by Oldbloke » 31 Dec 2020, 7:52 am

NTSOG, did you dismantle it?
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Re: If it's not broken, don't fix it.

Post by Madang185 » 31 Dec 2020, 8:10 am

Providing all screws are tight etc it is good practice to foul a barrel after cleaning with a minimum of one shot, some might take two! It very easy to prove. Take your best load and fire three consecutive shots out of a clean barrel. Two will be close, the "flyer" is invariably the first shot.

Shoot safe.
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Re: If it's not broken, don't fix it.

Post by NTSOG » 31 Dec 2020, 11:03 am

Good morning All,

To summarise:

* The ATN scope is 11 months old and mounted on Burris Signature rings. It hasn't been dropped or bumped. All mounting screws are exactly as I set them in terms of tensioin.

* The rifle has not been apart since I bought it nearly three years ago. It is bedded.

* As suspected by several of you there was a difference in the tension of the action screws: The rear screw behind the trigger was firm and probably at 30 inch pounds. The screw in front of the magazine was tensioned but came out with light force - about 20 inch pounds. There is also another screw that goes into a band that wraps around the barrel just where some models have the rear sight. This screw was done up but not tensioned at all, much as Skinna described: "not loose" . The bedding finishes just in front of this band of metal. What is confusing is no other models of this 1532 rifle have this 'forward' screw according to the Anschutz parts diagrams. This third screw also appears to be set in a metal tube as though it is pillared. I cannot tell if it is an after-market modification installed when the rifle was bedded.

* With regard to action screws Anschutz "recommends the use of a torque wrench, starting at 2.5 Nm ( 22 inch-lbs ) and not to exceed 4.0 Nm ( 35 inch-lbs)." I've set all three screws at 24 inch pounds for a start and will test fire this afternoon. [My wife is working her horses this morning and will not take kindly to a centrefire blasting away in the back paddock!]

Thanks Madang for your advice: "fire three consecutive shots out of a clean barrel. Two will be close, the "flyer" is invariably the first shot." I actually did that a while back and saw exactly what you describe, but, in my confusion at what DJ described as a '"rifle ... go[ing] from a "shooter" to a "shotgun"' I forgot.

Being an air-rifle shooter too I should have woken up to the issue of screw tension as my high power break-barrel Weihrauchs are very touchy about screw tension and need tuning regularly.

Thank you All,

Jim
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Re: If it's not broken, don't fix it.

Post by NTSOG » 31 Dec 2020, 6:42 pm

G'day,

As suggested tensioning the action screws has stabilised the rifle so that it is consistently grouping around the POA. It took a little while for the rifle to 'settle' and increasing the tension a little during the session tightened the last three shot group to about 1.25". That's not quite as tight as it was grouping a few months ago, but the group centre was dead-on in relation to my POA, thus the rifle is usable for hunting again. I've increased screw tension to about 27 inch pounds, but doubt there is much 'give' left after that. I'm confused by the front screw and what part it plays in stabilising/controlling the barrel on the stock given that all other rifles of this model [1532] shown in the Anschutz diagrams only have two action screws. It's a finer screw and obviously shorter. Also, given that these screws loosened over time is it reasonable to use Loctite on them?

I'll have another play tomorrow, weather permitting - we're supposed to get some really heavy storms from early tomorrow.

Many thanks for your advice,

Jim
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Re: If it's not broken, don't fix it.

Post by Skinna » 31 Dec 2020, 9:50 pm

I wouldnt loctite them Jim...ideally just check them evefew times you use the rifle... :)

If the grouping is not as good as it was, try what i suggested--that being, loosen them off again, then when they are nipped up, grab the barrel & give the rifle a good sharp blow to the floor/ground. Dont be too afraid to give it some force, but you want sharp bump, not a soft poofy one...This will jolt the rifle back to being seated to the rear of the stock. Then tension them up to tight.

If the rifle is sitting in the exact correct spot now, it will likely be shooting back to the same point after you do this.
No need to muck around testing groups as you tension, just tension it up then check/re-sight in... :thumbsup:
:drinks:

Just to add, i know nothing about the rifle you have so cant comment on the function of its screws...cheers
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Re: If it's not broken, don't fix it.

Post by NTSOG » 01 Jan 2021, 6:01 am

Thanks Skinna.

I will do as you suggest: let off the screws a little and give it a firm thump. I assume this is done so so there is no room for the action to recoil back in the stock even a tiny fraction and rifle action is sitting exactly where it is meant to be in the bedding.

Jim
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Re: If it's not broken, don't fix it.

Post by Die Judicii » 01 Jan 2021, 9:20 pm

My first thoughts were also,,,, "something is loose"

Most of my rifles, in particular the HOWAS don't lose zero after a cleaning (maybe I'm lucky) but the couple that do only seems to
affect the first one or two shots, and then they are bang on target again. Hence the old saying "fire a fouling shot"

Has your rifle been bedded reliably ? (I would inspect the bedding itself to check if it may be separating from the stock)
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Re: If it's not broken, don't fix it.

Post by NTSOG » 02 Jan 2021, 6:26 am

G'day DJ,

The bedding appears alright - superficially, but I will keep that in mind if it doesn't hold zero over the next few weeks. The bedding was professionally done before I bought the rifle, but I presume bedding can break down over time and with use.

Jim
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Re: If it's not broken, don't fix it.

Post by Larry » 02 Jan 2021, 8:51 am

My comp rifle did something similar. I found out what it was after chasing lots of leads. It finally failed catastrophically. Turned out it was a crack in the stock across the grip. The stock finally broke in half when it did you could see oil ingress into what would have been the crack. It took about six months of fault finding. I fixed the crown changed loads all the checks mentioned here. It only takes the smallest amount of movement in the follow through period of time to make a small change on the target..
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Re: If it's not broken, don't fix it.

Post by NTSOG » 02 Jan 2021, 10:43 am

G'day Larry: "It only takes the smallest amount of movement in the follow through period of time to make a small change on the target."

As you, Skinna and the others have explained subtle and unobserved changes in the action and stock make a big difference 100+ yards away on a small target, especially if they happen over time. Had I removed the action from the stock I might have considered that was where the problem lay, but, to my mind, nothing had changed in the rifle. It had been very accurate since last zeroed four months ago due to the ATN sight having an 'electrical storm'. It had been very accurate before that.

It's been a good lesson about preventative maintenance for me.

Jim
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Re: If it's not broken, don't fix it.

Post by NTSOG » 09 Jan 2021, 6:33 am

G'day All,

I now have a rifle shooting [warm barrel] just inside 1 MOA [3 shot groups] - actually two touching holes and one at the same level a little left and all inside my 1.25" aim point on the target face at 100 yards.

I found an article about tuning rifles with three action screws: http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/201 ... -settings/

Tightening the two main screws and then adjusting the front in small increments gave a slightly larger group [1.25"] , but on target and definitely good enough for hunting at ranges I normally shoot.

I then decided to try the method in the article: tighten front and middle to 30 inch pounds and set rear at 5 in. pds. Tension on the rear was increased by increments of 5 for each group allowing 8-10 minutes for the rifle to cool a little and also allowing 2 minutes between each shot of a given group. The rear screw is now at 32 in. pds. It was interesting to see how group size changed and POI 'wandered' on the target face until, at 32 in. pds. on the rear screw, POA and POI coincided and the group size shrank.

Next I'll go out and shoot a 5 shot 'cold' group, giving the rifle time to cool between shots.

Jim
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