Lead removal in a marlin 4570

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Lead removal in a marlin 4570

Post by Blr243 » 19 Jan 2021, 7:59 am

I’m about to start shooting powder coated proj ...someone said I don’t need lube with powder coated proj ......500 grainers at roughly 1200 FPS. They are purchased proj from cowboy guns n gear Does lubing powder coated proj help a bit? It’s not micro groove it’s Ballard style rifling. If I still get leading How do I know it’s leading up ?I don’t have a borescope and my eyes are a bit feral ...I have shooters choice lead remover and sweets 762 ...I expect after leaving these products in the bore that my cleaning patches will be dirty. If I just keep cleaning and I end up with clean patches does that mean all the lead is gone or could some still be there ? Is lead easier to remove than copper ? I’m not useing gas checks.
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Re: Lead removal in a marlin 4570

Post by Gamerancher » 19 Jan 2021, 8:51 am

Tight patch with turps will tell you if you have leading. Yes, in my experience, lubing coated bullets can make a difference to both fouling and accuracy. Incorrectly sized ( undersize ) bullets will lead the bore. Birchwood Casey make a lead cleaning cloth that works well. Sweets 7.62 is more for copper.
Why 500 grainers in a lever-gun?
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Re: Lead removal in a marlin 4570

Post by Blr243 » 19 Jan 2021, 5:50 pm

The lobbing heavy lead is a traditional fun thing I want to try
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Re: Lead removal in a marlin 4570

Post by LawrenceA » 19 Jan 2021, 7:24 pm

Yes lubing can help with powder coated projectiles. Particularly if the coating scrapes off during loading.
The most important thing with cast projectiles is the bullet diameter.
The bullet diameter needs to be about 2 thou fatter than the throat to prevent gas cutting of the bullet base on firing.
Although lead is softer than copper it is harder to get out as there are no solvents. Most concoctions just loosen it up.
I have had success using paper towel to remove lead. For really heavy build up get some copper or bronze wool.
Scrubs the hell out of lead without damaging the barrel and any copper or bronze left behind will succumb easily to Sweets.
With the Marlin 1895 you will be limiting case capacity by using the 500grainers and with velocities under 1500fpps leading should not be an issue particularly with hard cast as long as the bullet is fat enough.

You are in for some great fun!
I use different colour bullets to indicate different loads.
such as blue for pure lead and red for full patch loads.
One well placed shot is all it takes.
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Re: Lead removal in a marlin 4570

Post by Blr243 » 19 Jan 2021, 8:58 pm

Good tips blokes. I’ll probably be sub 1250 speed to avoid booting myself too much ::: I shall do some measuring of the bag of proj I bought
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Re: Lead removal in a marlin 4570

Post by LawrenceA » 19 Jan 2021, 10:29 pm

Blr243 wrote:Good tips blokes. I’ll probably be sub 1250 speed to avoid booting myself too much ::: I shall do some measuring of the bag of proj I bought

Slug the chamber throat first.
And don't be surprised if there is no throat. If not go bore diameter.
One well placed shot is all it takes.
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Re: Lead removal in a marlin 4570

Post by Blr243 » 20 Jan 2021, 6:44 am

I could slug the barrel conventially starting at the muzzle and pushing a couple of inches down. Would I slug the chamber by the following Method ?..... with a dummy case ,fit an up ended Lead projectile seated out along way with a firm crimp, and then useing the closing action of the lever, chamber and extract it, and check for good positive marks, and measure them ? I’m not sure I want to get into chamber casting My projectiles measure 460 thou
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Re: Lead removal in a marlin 4570

Post by in2anity » 20 Jan 2021, 6:59 am

what i've done before is just grab a lead pill, then hammered down length ways on steel plate, it making it slightly "fatter". Then i just knocked it down through the length of the barrel using some appropriately sized dowel rod. Then just mic the marks on the lead.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Lead removal in a marlin 4570

Post by Oldbloke » 20 Jan 2021, 7:33 am

in2anity wrote:what i've done before is just grab a lead pill, then hammered down length ways on steel plate, it making it slightly "fatter". Then i just knocked it down through the length of the barrel using some appropriately sized dowel rod. Then just mic the marks on the lead.



Me too, I used a 1/4" brass rod
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Re: Lead removal in a marlin 4570

Post by LawrenceA » 20 Jan 2021, 7:46 am

Knock a slightly fatter bullet in from the breech end the length of a cartridge case.
Then knock it out. You should see the start of the rifling. measure just in front of where it starts
One well placed shot is all it takes.
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Re: Lead removal in a marlin 4570

Post by InisBineest » 20 Jan 2021, 8:26 am

Blr243 wrote:I’m about to start shooting powder coated proj ...someone said I don’t need lube with powder coated proj ......500 grainers at roughly 1200 FPS. They are purchased proj from cowboy guns n gear Does lubing powder coated proj help a bit? It’s not micro groove it’s Ballard style rifling. If I still get leading How do I know it’s leading up ?I don’t have a borescope and my eyes are a bit feral ...I have shooters choice lead remover and sweets 762 ...I expect after leaving these products in the bore that my cleaning patches will be dirty. If I just keep cleaning and I end up with clean patches does that mean all the lead is gone or could some still be there ? Is lead easier to remove than copper ? I’m not useing gas checks.


Hey Mate,
I ran my own cast an PC 340gr projectiles out of my Marlin 45-70 when i had it, over a near max load of trailboss. Even over trailboss, they were zippy little things, with no recoil (good for me, i'm a small dude)! If they are powder coated well (or even better, hi-tek coated if you can buy or diy) you shouldn't need to lube them as well. It can't hurt, but the benefit would be small. If you want to put the effort in to prevent leading, i suggest slugging your bore. I used a soft lead sinker that i drove into the muzzle with a dowel and dead blow hammer. Then use a good set of calipers to measure the diameter of the lands (the widest parts on your slug). You can use the same process for the breech end if you want to be sure, but you may have to shape your lead sinker a bit to get it in the chamber (and there are other methods to get the chamber end slugged as well if you look around).

Once you have a slugged bore you want to have bullets (cast) that are 0.001" larger than the size you slugged. My Marlin was .457 so I cast .459 and sized down to .458 in a push through sizer (they only sold a .457 one so i used fine sand paper to open it up, rolling it over my leg with a dowel wrapped in the paper and measuring often). No leading at all and they were quite accurate for rounds i smashed together with little to no load development (1 inch at 50m... not benchrest, but fine for my purposes).

Good luck!
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Re: Lead removal in a marlin 4570

Post by Gamerancher » 20 Jan 2021, 9:22 am

Blr243 wrote:The lobbing heavy lead is a traditional fun thing I want to try


In that case, to get the real traditional feeling for "lobbing heavy lead" you need a single shot black-powder rifle!!!! :lol:
Smoke, noise, recoil and long-range accuracy, what could be better?? :thumbsup:

200m setup.jpg
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14 year old son loves this one, Shiloh Sharps 1874 in .40-70 Straight Sharps.
Blair 40-70.jpg
Blair 40-70.jpg (129.41 KiB) Viewed 3897 times


Did I mention long range accuracy?
500m group.jpg
500m group.jpg (20.33 KiB) Viewed 3896 times
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Re: Lead removal in a marlin 4570

Post by LawrenceA » 20 Jan 2021, 11:52 am

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Dunno about the long range accuracy.
I have fun either way. Definitely get more pigs with the Marlin but the trapdoor is great.
One well placed shot is all it takes.
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Re: Lead removal in a marlin 4570

Post by Gamerancher » 20 Jan 2021, 12:18 pm

Nice mate, all original?
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Re: Lead removal in a marlin 4570

Post by Larry » 20 Jan 2021, 4:09 pm

Gamerancher wrote:
Blr243 wrote:The lobbing heavy lead is a traditional fun thing I want to try


In that case, to get the real traditional feeling for "lobbing heavy lead" you need a single shot black-powder rifle!!!! :lol:
Smoke, noise, recoil and long-range accuracy, what could be better?? :thumbsup:

200m setup.jpg


14 year old son loves this one, Shiloh Sharps 1874 in .40-70 Straight Sharps.
Blair 40-70.jpg


Did I mention long range accuracy?
500m group.jpg


Yes but you have some outstanding quality guns. I am sure they are outside the norm of the typical ones going or being sold around the traps. If I had the money I would throw it at you for a couple of your loved ones.
PS I got to road test a couple a few years ago out the back of Ballarat. :D
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Re: Lead removal in a marlin 4570

Post by LawrenceA » 20 Jan 2021, 5:26 pm

Gamerancher wrote:Nice mate, all original?

Yup model 1884 but the serial numbers date to the 1870's so who knows really.
One well placed shot is all it takes.
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Re: Lead removal in a marlin 4570

Post by LawrenceA » 20 Jan 2021, 6:10 pm

Gamerancher wrote:
Blr243 wrote:The lobbing heavy lead is a traditional fun thing I want to try


In that case, to get the real traditional feeling for "lobbing heavy lead" you need a single shot black-powder rifle!!!! :lol:
Smoke, noise, recoil and long-range accuracy, what could be better?? :thumbsup:

14 year old son loves this one, Shiloh Sharps 1874 in .40-70 Straight Sharps.

Did I mention long range accuracy?


THAT IS AWESOME!!!
One well placed shot is all it takes.
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Re: Lead removal in a marlin 4570

Post by Gamerancher » 21 Jan 2021, 10:12 am

Maybe start a thread with some good photos of the old girl. Be interested to see the breech and lock.
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Re: Lead removal in a marlin 4570

Post by Blr243 » 21 Jan 2021, 3:21 pm

I would give black powder a crack if it were not so corrosive
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Re: Lead removal in a marlin 4570

Post by LawrenceA » 21 Jan 2021, 5:35 pm

Blr243 wrote:I would give black powder a crack if it were not so corrosive

It is great fun but yes there is more to cleaning them.
Not a lot more but more. Muzzleloaders are especially different. They are very tactile in that you make your load then and there. Point and the hammer falls there is smake and bang and the bullet goes whack and the dust billows up!!! Great Stuff.
Last time I was out pig shooting had to wait for the smoke to clear to see if I had hit it.
I had :D

Having said that they are my passion.
I have almost finished building this one. All licensed and legit.
Made from a plank and raw metal stock using essentially hand tools.

matchlock.jpg
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One well placed shot is all it takes.
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Re: Lead removal in a marlin 4570

Post by Larry » 21 Jan 2021, 5:42 pm

@LawrenceA that is going to give you so much satisfaction when you fire the first shot. More people should give it a go. I bought a stock blank and shaped it myself the hardest part was the first cut. Once you are committed the shaping came pretty easily and intuitively.
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Re: Lead removal in a marlin 4570

Post by LawrenceA » 21 Jan 2021, 6:02 pm

Larry wrote:@LawrenceA that is going to give you so much satisfaction when you fire the first shot. More people should give it a go. I bought a stock blank and shaped it myself the hardest part was the first cut. Once you are committed the shaping came pretty easily and intuitively.

So true
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Re: Lead removal in a marlin 4570

Post by Blr243 » 21 Jan 2021, 6:42 pm

Lawrence quite a few more pics of everything to do with the build when it’s complete please......and we promise not to be too picky. Just interested
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Re: Lead removal in a marlin 4570

Post by LawrenceA » 21 Jan 2021, 6:58 pm

Blr243 wrote:Lawrence quite a few more pics of everything to do with the build when it’s complete please......and we promise not to be too picky. Just interested

Not going to hijack the Thread;
Here is the Matchlock
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/thre ... st-1771898


Here is the next one
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/thre ... st-1767720

Thanks for the interest
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Re: Lead removal in a marlin 4570

Post by Gamerancher » 22 Jan 2021, 9:06 am

Blr243 wrote:I would give black powder a crack if it were not so corrosive


It's only a problem if left uncleaned. Best part is that the best solvent is "dihydrogen-oxide", ..............................................................( water ) :lol:
Muzzleloaders are basically cleaned every time you load, some time spent at the end of the session to clean out the bottom of the chamber, oil up and you're done. The old tale about having to take them into the shower with you is horse-shite.
Cartridge or breech loaders are a breeze to clean. Since I wipe after each shot, at the end of the day it takes about half a dozen patches and I'm done.
Admittedly, black-powder revolvers are a pain in the ar$e, but for me it's disassembly and dropped into a bucket of warm soapy water at the end of the day, a bit of scrubbing, dry off, oil up and reassemble.
Lever guns can be a pain if you get crud in the receiver admittedly.
Personally, I'd rather clean 5 black-powder guns than one modern high-power centre fire after an 80 shot match any day. :drinks:
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Re: Lead removal in a marlin 4570

Post by in2anity » 22 Jan 2021, 9:50 am

Gamerancher wrote:Personally, I'd rather clean 5 black-powder guns than one modern high-power centre fire after an 80 shot match any day. :drinks:

Really? I beg to differ. While she's still warm, some ammonia based solvent left to sit, followed up with a quick nylon brush then some carbon remover and finally a drop of oil. Bob's your uncle. Let the chemicals do the work! Over the years my cleaning process has only gotten simpler. Less is more.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Lead removal in a marlin 4570

Post by Gamerancher » 22 Jan 2021, 10:24 am

Not going to start a pissing match about how to clean and what to use, each to his own.
Everyone has their own personal regime, I've had blokes show me their "u-beaut" new cleaner that does it all in a couple of patches.
I've then gotten them to run a patch of "old-faithful" through their "clean" barrel only to come out with a bright blue patch.
Personally, I've had it take 50 or more patches to clean up a H.P. tight twist competition barrel to my liking after a match.
I'll take 6 patches in my black-powder barrels any day. :thumbsup:
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Re: Lead removal in a marlin 4570

Post by in2anity » 22 Jan 2021, 10:34 am

Gamerancher wrote:Not going to start a pissing match about how to clean and what to use, each to his own.
Everyone has their own personal regime, I've had blokes show me their "u-beaut" new cleaner that does it all in a couple of patches.
I've then gotten them to run a patch of "old-faithful" through their "clean" barrel only to come out with a bright blue patch.
Personally, I've had it take 50 or more patches to clean up a H.P. tight twist competition barrel to my liking after a match.
I'll take 6 patches in my black-powder barrels any day. :thumbsup:

Yes very true, each to their own. Not trying to start anything GR, just a differing opinion. :drinks: I used to clean my 223 comp gun with only hoppes, and indeed it took 20-30 patches. The 30cals with a stronger solvent and a more patient regime cuts that down to probably 10 patches max.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Lead removal in a marlin 4570

Post by Gamerancher » 22 Jan 2021, 11:04 am

Trust me, I've tried a bunch of different methods.
I've been shooting tight twist 6.5's with long "VLD" type bullets since before they became trendy. Those f#ckers leave copper behind like nothing else.
They take twice as much cleaning as my 7mm's.
No matter what I've tried, I always seem to come back to an alternating Hoppes / Sweets to get them clean to my liking. YRMV. :drinks:

Sorry to hijack the thread :oops:
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Re: Lead removal in a marlin 4570

Post by Gamerancher » 22 Jan 2021, 11:26 am

Back onto the original question.
Given that you said it has ballard rifling, is the rifle in question one of the "Cowboy" models?
I had one of those with the 26" barrel. It shot cast 360 grain bullets ( plain base/lubed, not coated ) very well using 20 grains of 2205 or 16 grains of Trailboss. You wont fit that much trailboss under a 500 grainer. Just work out how deep you need to seat the bullet that it will cycle out of the mag and fill the case to the base of the bullet without any compaction. Maybe have a bit of a gap for starters and work up.
That weight of bullet is far better suited to single shots where you can get a lot more powder behind it but it wont hurt to try them out.

P.S. I'd still lube them, I've seen and used some coated bullets where the coating was inconsistent and, dare I say, questionable.
They have a lot of bearing surface and I just get better results doing so.
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