Is the 308 really THAT bad?

[in2anity]

Riddle me this Batman, if the 308 is really that bad, how come the two top aggregate F scores at the recent NSW Queens came from F-std and not F-open?

queens.jpg (72.35 KiB) Viewed 8024 times

#justsayin #inyourfacemanbun

[Larry]

That competition is probably not the best indicator as there was very little competition from interstate due to covid. The 308 classes have some excellent shooters very experienced shooters that have been competing with that cartridge for many years.

[CAVEMAN]

I'll chime a rebutal base on an engineering standpoint.

Does it still work, yes.

But have we made improvements in nearly 70 years, also yes.

Compare a worked 52 dragster, is it still original no. But it can blast a quarter.

Whereas a newer car might be similar close to stock. One can hope for improvement to make our stuff better.

[LawrenceA]

I am not familiar with the competition but in passing.

It is a competition for the best shooter or the best rifle or the best combination?
If it is the combination then you cannot say this cartridge is good look at the score.
I would suggest that like most competitions it would seem that you can buy points to a degree. After that it is the shooter and his/her talent and familiarity with that particular rig and in that particular weather with that particular wind etcetera.

Lesson here. Use your setup LOTS! It is relatively easy (if not cheap) to get an accurate rifle. It is the rest that decides if that potential is ever reached.

[Larry]

It is a competition that test both the rifle and the shooter. There is not a lot of money spared on the rifle however it is a fairly even playing field within the classes even across the classes it can be very even. The rifles that tend to win in F open are 7mm SAUMs however they are hard to drive.

[in2anity]

Lesson here. Use your setup LOTS! It is relatively easy (if not cheap) to get an accurate rifle. It is the rest that decides if that potential is ever reached.

BRAVO! Could not agree more my friend

Meanwhile, the legendary Jim Bailey shot a staggering 70/90 V-Bulls with his TR from the sling using the humble 155.5gr palma pill. A perfect example of possibly the most intimate relationship with his equipment and wind reading. Just incredible.

[Farmerpete]

308 isn't bad its just not the best there's a big difference between not being the best and being bad.

Does 243 or 260 etc reach the target quicker?: yes
Does the 308 get blown around a bit more?:
yes
Does that matter for a target at 500?:
not really
Will it matter at 1000?:
Probably
Would it matter enough to stop your average f class shooter stop using it?:
probably not
Would guys competing for national or international events go away from it?:
Yes because there's better (not much better but still better, and they're willing to spend the money for even the smallest advantage.

[RoginaJack]

Hmmm,,
Probably "not THAT Bad." Would I own one ? NO.,

Would I take one hunting? NO.

Would I use one for target shooting? Maybe.

Hunting Deer etc? 30.06 .

[Larry]

At our range the only person to ever shoot a 60 /10 so far has been a target shooter using a sling and 308 and that was using a F Standard target same as F open. Yes he is on the Australian Team

[in2anity]

hehehe I knew this would ruffle some feathers. The way I see things, "fancier" calibers are just a touch more forgiving to the newbies, i.e. those still developing their wind-reading / shooting technique. Once you get to the top, within reason you can make what you've got work for you, it just takes A LOT of practice.

[Larry]

hehehe I knew this would ruffle some feathers. The way I see things, "fancier" calibers are just more forgiving to the newbies, i.e. those still developing their wind-reading / technique. Once you get to the top, within reason you can make what you've got work for you.

It is amusing I shoot F standard and have won a queens. I have always found the comments about the 6.5 Creed amusing to frustrating at the lack of actual experience people have with target shooting. Yes I have one of those 6.5C as well is it better than my 308? no.

[in2anity]

It is amusing I shoot F standard and have won a queens. I have always found the comments about the 6.5 Creed amusing to frustrating at the lack of actual experience people have with target shooting. Yes I have one of those 6.5C as well is it better than my 308? no.

you know it.

[on_one_wheel]

It goes to show, it's all about the nut behind the wheel.

There's no replacement for trigger time.

[in2anity]

At our range the only person to ever shoot a 60 /10 so far has been a target shooter using a sling and 308 and that was using a F Standard target same as F open. Yes he is on the Australian Team

Really strikes a chord with me. I've been shooting a lot of sling myself recently, and when I'm really on fire, and on an easy wind day (which is admittedly not very often, and especially rare during a match because my nerves fray ), I'm really not sure if I could do much better off the bipod (with a light, sporter type rifle at least), i.e. S/H class. When you are completely relaxed in the zone, there is something magically consistent with sling shooting.

[Bugman]

The types of 308 rifles I have seen at the range where I go, that are used for F class etc, are mostly fancy frames, barrels, actions etc and bloody accurate. As are hunting calibre it would suit me.

[Larry]

The types of 308 rifles I have seen at the range where I go, that are used for F class etc, are mostly fancy frames, barrels, actions etc and bloody accurate. As are hunting calibre it would suit me.

Actually I would say that the majority of F Class rifles are still wooden. I have seen a few more Alloy ones in the last year but I think wood is still the majority. There are not that many chassis options that are suitable. Chassis tend to be heavy and there are weight restrictions in each class. Most competitors want the weight in the barrel and then the scope.

[boingk]

People talk about different, new development catridges like they're some mystica, magical thing, some elusive quality improvement over what came before.

The 6.5CM is a 308 run through a die and a new projectile plopped on top. Whooptie freakin' doo!

If you have a good enough skill set any 'accurate' rifle can be made to work for you in whatever discipline you choose.

- boingk

[SCJ429]

That competition is probably not the best indicator as there was very little competition from interstate due to covid. The 308 classes have some excellent shooters very experienced shooters that have been competing with that cartridge for many years.

Come on Larry, don't bring facts into a 308 debate.

[in2anity]

That competition is probably not the best indicator as there was very little competition from interstate due to covid. The 308 classes have some excellent shooters very experienced shooters that have been competing with that cartridge for many years.

Come on Larry, don't bring facts into a 308 debate.

Also I was a little misleading in that if you tallied the aggregate of the top 10 from both classes, F-open clearly has the higher scores. Nevertheless it does illustrate that the venerable 308 can be mastered, albeit it's harder to do so...

The whole point of this thread was to bring to light the fact that we all drink too much of the kool-aid.

Cheers,
In2

[SCJ429]

I know you like to stir the pot. And with the lack of action on this site, your thread is very welcome.

I still think you got your doors blown off by someone shooting a 6.5 and you hold a grudge.

[in2anity]

I know you like to stir the pot. And with the lack of action on this site, your thread is very welcome.

I still think you got your doors blown off by someone shooting a 6.5 and you hold a grudge.

Bahahaha yes well let's let sleeping dogs lie mate yes it has been quiet around here.. whatever happened to stix? and farmerpete?

[Larry]

Better a little bit quieter and actual gun related posts than off topic political bulls**t mixed in with every other toxic language.

[Blr243]

I hav just ordered 400 new cases. I bought a collet die today. I’m buying a body die tomorrow today I bought a kg of powder 1000 primers and 400 projectiles today. I did a pta for a new 308 last night ...anyone bagging out th 308 tonight is likely to be struck with lightning

[on_one_wheel]

People talk about different, new development catridges like they're some mystica, magical thing, some elusive quality improvement over what came before.

The 6.5CM is a 308 run through a die and a new projectile plopped on top. Whooptie freakin' doo!

If you have a good enough skill set any 'accurate' rifle can be made to work for you in whatever discipline you choose.

- boingk

I've got one of those fandangled wizz bang new development ground-breaking wildcat catridges, its a .308 necked down to .243

It's easy to forget just how many common cartridges used today were made with hopped up, necked down, shortened versions of earlier cartridges.

I believe that even the .308's roots lay in the 30-06 Springfield

[in2anity]

I believe that even the .308's roots lay in the 30-06 Springfield

And the 30-06 should absolutely not be discredited! It’ll shoot Vs - don’t you worry about that! I’ve seen it first hand!

[on_one_wheel]

I believe that even the .308's roots lay in the 30-06 Springfield

And the 30-06 should absolutely not be discredited! It’ll shoot Vs - don’t you worry about that! I’ve seen it first hand!

70 odd years of use by the US armed forces says something about its performance
It even found its way into a song "16 shells from a thirty-ough-six "

[in2anity]

https://youtu.be/M0FNCYe4OUA 30-60 @700m, as-issued service sights

[straightshooter]

I know you like to stir the pot. And with the lack of action on this site, your thread is very welcome.

I still think you got your doors blown off by someone shooting a 6.5 and you hold a grudge.

I agree with your observation of the present dullness of this forum. I wonder if it has something to do with members having posts memory holed once too often.

As for the superiority of one caliber over another, people have a tendency mostly to fetishise (or is it fantasise) over one particular factor, for example cal x has higher BC projectiles.
Given that no particular cartridge is inherently more accurate than another, all else being equal, then long range accuracy is in the main determined by the effect of wind on the flight of the projectile.
Drift due to wind is determined by time of flight. So the winner at any particular range is the cartridge with the best combination of muzzle velocity and projectile BC.
This has been proven both experimentally and mathematically a long time ago.
For the purpose of this discussion thus there will be ranges where your 6mm or 6.5 caliber of the month may excel and there will be ranges where the humble 308 also excels.
As always, a lot depends on the operator.

[Larry]

I believe that there are some cartridges that are more inherently accurate than others. IMHO it can be due to the shape ie fat and short VS skinny long. I think that is some sort ratio that makes a better cartridge. then there is the shoulder angle that also comes into the equation. The neck length has been a long debated issue on accuracy. I am not as convinced that this contributes as much as the other factors.

[bigrich]

Better a little bit quieter and actual gun related posts than off topic political bulls**t mixed in with every other toxic language.

I agree with this statement
I do find “skinner” (stix) very entertaining at times though

Back on topic though, I don’t understand why anyone would say a 308 in comps is bad . As others have alluded to , shooter skills and knowing ones own rifle probably count for more

As a hunting caliber, 308 will do the job, but I find it batsh!t boring compared to other hunting rifles I’ve had or have in my collection