Am I talking myself into a corner?

[greybro]

So - I recently got my first 22LR (Lithgow LA101 Left handed, polymer stock, Meopta meopro 4.5-15x50), and love it. Sighted in and shoots like a laser at 50m with CCI standard and Norma. I mainly intend to use it for target shooting at the range (and maybe some comp down the track), and occasional pest control or rabbiting with friends.

Unfortunately, I think I'm in the position of probably only having space, budget, and 'permission' to get a second rifle. I'm really keen to get into long range, but there aren't many ranges in metro Melbourne that go out beyond 500m. 1000y would be the dream... but reality may not support the dream. So I'm looking at my second rifle being a centrefire, for pretty much the same purposes - mainly range and target shooting at distance, and then the occasional hunt with friends. I have a friend who plans on going deer shooting some time soon, and suspect that'll be the main of my hunting, other than pest control (foxes etc) at distance.

I've been reading this forum (especially this post viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1335 - which five calibres should I own), and some other sites, and considering my goals vs budget vs the thought of ongoing running costs of ammo etc ... I think I'm leaning towards a .308.

That being said however I wanted to check in with the brains trust in here.... What calibre would you recommend (though *very* happy to take rifle advice too) for these needs - a 308, or would I be better served by a 7mm-08, 30-06, 270, 243 (or even 300 win mag)? I'm keen on the sport, and don't mind a less popular calibre, but also don't want to break the bank on ammo costs ( - a contradiction, I know with shooting).

I am considering 2nd hand, but as a leftie, it gets hard to find stuff.

Cheers all

[bladeracer]

If you're going to load your own ammo, 7mm-08 is my pick. 78gn bullets at low and high velocities will fill all your smaller game needs, up to 175gn bullets for big stuff. And for target shooting the 7mm bullets offer better ballistics.

But, if you're going to buy readymade ammo, I would stay with .308.

[greybro]

Cheers bladeracer - definitely not at the self load stage yet!

[Bugman]

I don't think that you are talking yourself into a corner. A fellow I know started shooting long range, and started with a 6.5 Creedmore. Had that rifle for a bit, but switched over to a 308 and is apparently staying with it. I am not a long range target shooter, but at the range I sometimes go to, the rifle club guys seem to like 30b for their f-class comps. Also, the 308, I think, is one of the most versatile calibres around.

[Tiger650]

The .308 looks to be a good choice for you.
The variety of available factory ammo is important given that you will not for the moment handload although I would be surprised if you could buy anything off the shelf that would be useful to 1000 yds.
That said, ADI occasionally does a run of ammo with the 168gn Sierra Matchking bullet, I reckon when you can shoot those accurately to available 500 yd ranges you will have achieved a significant milestone.
Factory ammo can also be had with the 165gn Sierra Gameking which is a hunting bullet with very similar ballistics to the Matchking.
Achieving marksmanship skills requires frequent practice and that can be expensive, particularly when using factory ammo, properly made hand loads are almost invariably more accurate and costs per round are much less if you ignore initial setup expense.
Reloading equipment costs are substantial if you buy new, maybe keep an eve on used gun websites and fleabay, for the basics.
If you are in Northern Victoria feel free to PM me.

[greybro]

Cheers tiger.650. I'm in the northern fringe up near Whittlesea

[bladeracer]

I have to disagree about the cost of reloading being high.
For under $500 you'll get all you need at new prices, and you should recoup that within your first 500rds over buying factory ammo.
And for target shooting, 500rds is not a lot of practice, you'll likely go through several times that in the first year.

[SCJ429]

You need to crawl before you can walk. You will find shooting comps at 1000 metres very humbling. Start out shooting 300 and 500 metres, this is a fair challenge.

You will have to separate your target rifle from your hunting rig, a 223 or 6mm BR would be perfect for a target rifle when starting out. They are not the best choice for hunting deer. A 300 WSM will knock your deer over but would be a handful for a new chum off the bench.

If you are up for it, a 7mm RSAUM is a great long range calibre. Not that I recommend it for someone starting out.

[Farmerpete]

308 is one of the best all rounders out there and every gun shop carries ammo,
30-06is just americas version of 308

243 will kill anything in oz short of buffalo and camel for target its just slightly better but only if you're really interested in competing at a professional level. It will also burn through barrels faster.

270 was traditionally used as more of a hunting gun, I don't know how well it would go at the range.

7-08 has been touted as being the most ballisticly balanced round on the market but ammo can be harder to find

At the end of the day it's really up to you all of the rifles you have listed will so the jobs you want them to.
Maybe go to the range and see if you can borrow a few different calibres and have a go feel the recoil etc.
Also just writing down your needs/wants and putting them down in order of importance can help.

[on_one_wheel]

Imo, if your plans are to eventually shoot long range then do your homework on what equipment you want to run and slowly but surely buy exactly what you want. It'll save you buying something that doesn't get you to where would want to be. Or if it's too far from your current budget then at east get something affordable in the cal you want. That way you will become familiar with the round and can amass used brass and loading equipment that will match your end game goals.

On reloading.
It doesn't need to be expensive. You can start out with nothing but a simple lee loader and a few little bits n pieces for under $100 which will have you loading some highly consistent and rifle specific tuned loads that will out perform any factory load on the market. You can gradually add to that one piece of equipment at a time until you you have everything you need when full length resizing becomes necessary. That's exactly what I did. Even consider picking up some second hand reloading equipment when things pop up.
I started out with a second hand lee loader and was loading rounds that shot .5 moa, it cost me next to nothing.

[in2anity]

greybro,

I basically agree with what on_one_wheel has said.

I feel you are looking at the problem from the wrong angle. You are looking at it from the bottom-up, when you should be looking top-down. By that I mean it seems like your choice is being dictated simply by caliber. That's a very typical approach for a prospective buyer looking for answers on the interwebs - don't worry I sympathise, indeed there’s much info on google.

But IMO, instead, think about exactly what sort of shooting you will most likely be regularly doing. How far away is the nearest club? What do they shoot there? Do you enjoy that style? Then get a rifle that's most appropriate. And there might even be some wiggle room with respect to caliber, if you find a left handed rifle that's going to satisfy your exact needs, perhaps something second-hand. For example the top two aggregate F-class shooters at the latest NSWRA Queens were 308s - they beat all the fancy calibers from F-open. I'm not saying "get a 308", what I'm saying is caliber is not the "be-all-and-end-all". The rifle itself, ammunition, equipment and obviously shooter skill are equally, if not more important than caliber (within reason).

If you'll mostly be target shooting (which it sounds like you may end doing), you should look to get a rifle specifically for that purpose. And the only way to figure out what's going to be appropriate and competitive, is by tagging along as a visitor to some matches and seeing for yourself the types of outfits shooters are using.

In2.

[ZaineB]

308 is one of the best all rounders out there and every gun shop carries ammo,
30-06is just americas version of 308

243 will kill anything in oz short of buffalo and camel for target its just slightly better but only if you're really interested in competing at a professional level. It will also burn through barrels faster.

270 was traditionally used as more of a hunting gun, I don't know how well it would go at the range.

7-08 has been touted as being the most ballisticly balanced round on the market but ammo can be harder to find

At the end of the day it's really up to you all of the rifles you have listed will so the jobs you want them to.
Maybe go to the range and see if you can borrow a few different calibres and have a go feel the recoil etc.
Also just writing down your needs/wants and putting them down in order of importance can help.

the 308 and 30-06 are both americas versions of themselves. the 30-06 outperforms the 308 but uses more propellant to do so.

[pomemax]

The last 2 posts NAILED it your on the right track by asking .
the every body has got one type ease of buying ammo 308 wont break the bank I have 3 of them .
Hunting 308 will take just about anything In Aust with shot placement/ distance .
What ever you do end up buying KEEP the spent brass you will reload at some time even in a few years
just looked its about $2 a shot and then up in price from there so 500 round $1000 (when did it get so pricey)
Lee Loader is a complete reloading system, kit includes everything needed to reload, except a rubber mallet. $75
https://www.cleaverfirearms.com/Product ... g&Brand=57

[Oldbloke]

7-08 pr even 7x57. Both great. But ammo is not common and I believe 7mm bullets are pricey. 308 is hard to beat. More common and cheaper.

[Oldbloke]

I think promax meant this

https://leeprecision.com/classic-lee-loader/

You can load with these i started with one and they do produce good ammo if you know what your doing.. But if i started over I would start looking around for used gear. Most reloading gear lasts forever, if looked after.

Cant go wrong with a set of RGB Lee dies, cheap as chips.

[greybro]

Thanks - legends one and all. Appreciate the advice

[cz515]

Everyone has given good suggestions. Regarding reloading i feel its more the unknown and lack of skill (not lack of money), if indeed as a new shooter you are worried how can you do it i suggest watching some youtube reloading videos. Start with the basic stuff don't go into advanced. The reality is a cheap lee kit will give you 90% of the accuracy of top of the range equipment and processes used by fclass/prs shooters.

I see you have a possible person local to show you how to reload.

For a new shooter i would suggest a low recoil calibre, not 300wm etc. 308 is the most versatile but a boat for getting to 1000m. But seeing you will be shooting at 500m most of the time 308 will do just fine.

Also look at a right handed rifle to shoot you may find it easier.... a lot of left handed people shoot normal right handed rifles

[on_one_wheel]

I'm a lefty, but don't shoot cacky handed.
I feel for cacky handed folks, it limits your options when shopping for firearms.

[bladeracer]

Everyone has given good suggestions. Regarding reloading i feel its more the unknown and lack of skill (not lack of money), if indeed as a new shooter you are worried how can you do it i suggest watching some youtube reloading videos. Start with the basic stuff don't go into advanced. The reality is a cheap lee kit will give you 90% of the accuracy of top of the range equipment and processes used by fclass/prs shooters.

I see you have a possible person local to show you how to reload.

For a new shooter i would suggest a low recoil calibre, not 300wm etc. 308 is the most versatile but a boat for getting to 1000m. But seeing you will be shooting at 500m most of the time 308 will do just fine.

Also look at a right handed rifle to shoot you may find it easier.... a lot of left handed people shoot normal right handed rifles

Never allow lack of experience to prevent you from trying new things, you'll go nowhere!

I started reloading when I got my first centrefire rifle when I was seventeen, didn't even occur to me to use factory ammo, so I never did. I gained _all_ of my experience at the very beginning. As far as I can recall, other than one magazine through an M16 in Army cadets, I had never fired any centrefire rifle before I got my .222Rem.

The only manual I ever had was Nick Harvey's book, but I also wrote to him several times to ask for load advice - actual handwritten letters! Perhaps the book was particularly good, I can't say. I won't support him now though since he doesn't support our right to own whichever firearm we prefer to use, semi-auto rifles for example. Try to get the book secondhand rather than line his pockets while he erodes your rights.

I agree about learning to use right-handed rifles left-handed, if you can do it, some people find it impossible.

[wanneroo]

I saw the data a few years ago when the US Army SOCOM ran tests on 308 compared to 6.5 Creedmoor. At 1000 yards, 6.5 is flatter, supersonic and carries more energy on target and is more accurate.

However, 6.5 is more expensive buying factory ammo and brass and for the average person is it worth it? Probably not.

308 has dominated all sorts of rifle competitions for decades, it's probably one of the most common cartridges out there along side 223.

308 is probably a good place to start. After a few years you can always upgrade or try something else.

Reloading will help you get the best out of it and reduce your costs. I wouldn't have thought of reloading 10 years ago and now I have 3 presses set up and do at least 10K rounds a year. For the casual person that rarely shoots they don't need to reload but if you are going to compete regularly, it's pretty much essential. 308 is pretty easy to load for too.

[Oldbloke]

Want a manual to learn how to reload? Just look here.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthrea ... nd-current

[Bello]

HI Greybro
Some really good advise here by the brains trust.
If you are new to shooting, try to get some experience with lighter calibres (223 etc) before you move up to the 308 or bigger.
If your friends or perhaps the range you go to may have some other calibre rifles you can try to see how you feel with the recoil and muzzle blast.

You may find that a target rifle used for 1000 meters, may not be suitable for a hunting rifle.
I agree with the above persons who said try 200 meters 300 meters out to 500 meters.
It isn't as easy as it appears on the youtube videos.

my 2c
good luck and enjoy our fantastic sport

[FNQ]

Go the .308

Don’t go 2nd hand - once you include transfer fees and or freight just not worth it IMO. Howas are cheap and good accurate start with plenty of simple upgrades if desired.

Start with factory loads but keep the brass.

[boingk]

Hi mate, if you're after "budget", "accurate" and "hunting" look at the Ruger American in 308. All sorts of variants to suit your intended use, too. I have a 'Compact' variant with the 18" barrel and smaller stock, but fitted it out with a tan standard-length stock from the 'Ranch' pattern. Damn thing shoots MOA all day, weighs nothing and cost me $700 brand new. Prices have since changed but hey, its a decent gun.

For reloading I'd go a turret press all day. Very nice things. Try the Lee 90304 kit if you're interested. For roughly $500 you're up and running. See my post here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13875 for more info. Still loving my kit and its paid for itself many times over now.

[greybro]

Thanks all for the really well considered, and very helpful posts and messages (cheers @oldbloke). Some really good direction for me.

[bladeracer]

Hi mate, if you're after "budget", "accurate" and "hunting" look at the Ruger American in 308. All sorts of variants to suit your intended use, too. I have a 'Compact' variant with the 18" barrel and smaller stock, but fitted it out with a tan standard-length stock from the 'Ranch' pattern. Damn thing shoots MOA all day, weighs nothing and cost me $700 brand new. Prices have since changed but hey, its a decent gun.

For reloading I'd go a turret press all day. Very nice things. Try the Lee 90304 kit if you're interested. For roughly $500 you're up and running. See my post here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13875 for more info. Still loving my kit and its paid for itself many times over now.

Agreed, I have the Ruger American Predator (heavier barrel with threaded muzzle) in .204, .223 and .243, and the Standard model in 7mm-08, highly under-appreciated rifles.

[SCJ429]

Go the .308

Don’t go 2nd hand - once you include transfer fees and or freight just not worth it IMO. Howas are cheap and good accurate start with plenty of simple upgrades if desired.

Start with factory loads but keep the brass.

I always buy second-hand, usually from guys I know from the range. You get to shoot the rifle and make sure it groups well. The club Armourer does the transfer for and the only fee is for the PTA.

I bought a couple of Tikka Super Varmint for $1,000 each, both rifles came with some brass and projectiles. How could buying new beat that?