New rifle advice

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New rifle advice

Post by winnellmatt » 07 Jun 2021, 5:11 pm

Hey all, I'm looking to buy my first rifle and I have looked around quite a bit and I'm stuck between 2 rifles. I was leaning towards a Lithgow 102 in 308 but my brother in law keeps telling me I should get a 300wm. The ruger american go wild caught my eye for the 300wm. My main concern is do I really need a 300wm for shooting sambar (I would never take a shot past 400 meters if that helps). Any advice is appreciated cheers
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Re: New rifle advice

Post by animalpest » 08 Jun 2021, 12:11 pm

If this is your first rifle then a 300WM may be too much gun for you. Start smaller.

Also shots at 400m on animals are not for the inexperienced regardless of what the internet tells you.
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Re: New rifle advice

Post by Oldbloke » 08 Jun 2021, 12:15 pm

IMHO stick with the 308. The 300mag will kick like a mule. You may end up with a flinch.
Advantages of 308
Cheaper ammo & reloading
Ammo availability
Less recoil
Good for abt 300 mtrs or more
Shorter action so lighter rifle

Cleavers currently have Mauser M18 for 308, 223 for $850

Unless you have a specific need for 308, perhaps consider 22lr or 223 for your first.

Edit: just noticed its for Sambar.
308, 270, 30-06, 8x57, 7x57, 303 have all been used by many for sambar. By far, most shots are taken under 150 yards. And 308 (& all of above) will be good for 250 or 300 yards if you can shoot straight.
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Re: New rifle advice

Post by Oldbloke » 08 Jun 2021, 12:26 pm

Matt, do you live and be hunting in Vic? If so there are minimum calibrs for deer.
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Re: New rifle advice

Post by ZaineB » 08 Jun 2021, 12:49 pm

im the opposite to these guys, smash out the 300wm before the various states all get together and make then nigh on impossible to own like WA is trying to, and remember WA could have 50cal while QLD couldnt etc. once they are done lynching all the 338's they will be after the 30cals too.

kick is a bit more than a 308, but I wouldnt say any "worse" in what you would experience actually shooting, I personally see no difference when it comes to taking, especially a single standing, shot on game with the WM over the slower burner. prone is where you would definitely feel the winmag booting you more, for all else I have felt plenty of "smaller" calibers kick just as much.


only clear advantage I would see using the 308 would be cost, but as far as factory rounds go around here, there isnt that much price diff anyway, and if cheaper and efficient and accurate is your game there are many round cheaper than 308 that are arguably better for your chosen game/use. failing all else take the inbetween and get a 30-06, they arent as fast as the wm but outshoot the 308 on bullet weights and velocity all day.

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Re: New rifle advice

Post by Oldbloke » 08 Jun 2021, 2:36 pm

"failing all else take the inbetween and get a 30-06, they arent as fast as the wm but outshoot the 308 on bullet weights and velocity all day.:

That's what I did. I was trading up from a 30.30 and a mate was trying to talk me into a 7mm rem magnum or the 300wm.
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Re: New rifle advice

Post by bladeracer » 08 Jun 2021, 2:48 pm

winnellmatt wrote:Hey all, I'm looking to buy my first rifle and I have looked around quite a bit and I'm stuck between 2 rifles. I was leaning towards a Lithgow 102 in 308 but my brother in law keeps telling me I should get a 300wm. The ruger american go wild caught my eye for the 300wm. My main concern is do I really need a 300wm for shooting sambar (I would never take a shot past 400 meters if that helps). Any advice is appreciated cheers


Do you have experience shooting rifles already, especially heavy-recoiling ones?

If you're just learning to shoot, get a bolt-action .22LR, a case of ammo, and spend some hours in a paddock learning to shoot first.

If you can shoot, and you can hunt, then you definitely don't need a long-range cannon. If you can't get a whole lot closer than 400m then you need to spend more time learning to hunt better. If you can shoot, then a .30-30 will easily drop a Sambar with proper bullet placement.

I'm a fan of hunting with "more than enough gun", but I'm not a fan of lugging around a great heavy scoped magnum action in heavy deer country when a .44Mag or .30-30 open-sighted lever-action carbine will do just as good a job for half the weight and size.
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Re: New rifle advice

Post by Blr243 » 08 Jun 2021, 4:25 pm

Shooting at dear at 400 m. And if it goes wrong ....it will run away and suffer..and u will not likely be able to find it to put it out of its misery
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Re: New rifle advice

Post by Oldbloke » 08 Jun 2021, 5:26 pm

Blr243 wrote:Shooting at dear at 400 m. And if it goes wrong ....it will run away and suffer..and u will not likely be able to find it to put it out of its misery


Not wrong. I lost one about 3 years ago. Ran 5 or 10 yards into a huge patch of blackberry's. (Several acres) Pretty much impenetrable. You never forget the ones you loose.

TBH I think a 30.30 is minimum. Sambar can be very big.
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Re: New rifle advice

Post by MontyShooter » 08 Jun 2021, 5:51 pm

I hunt sambar with a t3x superlite in 7mm rem mag. It's no issue taking a few shots on a trip but I wouldn't be going to the range and plinking away on the bench.

Also the la102 is a heavy rifle to hunt with, especially climbing mountains looking for sambar.
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Re: New rifle advice

Post by ZaineB » 08 Jun 2021, 8:07 pm

MontyShooter wrote:I hunt sambar with a t3x superlite in 7mm rem mag. It's no issue taking a few shots on a trip but I wouldn't be going to the range and plinking away on the bench.

Also the la102 is a heavy rifle to hunt with, especially climbing mountains looking for sambar.



this would be my thought too, I was looking at a 338 Federal years ago when they were all the Hype, settled on a kimber montana with a lightweight stock, never eventuated however due to my preferred rifle sitting on backorder for what seemed like forever, My asperation was pigs and deer and maybe even try it out on a few camels however never eventuated, I can however vouch that even some long actions are far lighter than some short action rifles depending on how theyre made. I used a CMC mountaineer 270 for a while which was a heck of a lot lighter than the short action winchester model 70 223 I had previous.

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Re: New rifle advice

Post by bladeracer » 08 Jun 2021, 8:17 pm

Oldbloke wrote:TBH I think a 30.30 is minimum. Sambar can be very big.


I would agree that .30-30 can be on the light side, but an accurate and experienced shooter can use it very effectively. I bought my Model 94 Winchester from a local guy that took heaps of deer with it. When I saw the size of his freezers, I figured he probably lived on Venison :-)
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Re: New rifle advice

Post by Oldbloke » 08 Jun 2021, 8:37 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Oldbloke wrote:TBH I think a 30.30 is minimum. Sambar can be very big.


I would agree that .30-30 can be on the light side, but an accurate and experienced shooter can use it very effectively. I bought my Model 94 Winchester from a local guy that took heaps of deer with it. When I saw the size of his freezers, I figured he probably lived on Venison :-)


Yep, but leaves little room for error. And due to flat nosed bullets limited on range. But this thread isn't about sambar calibres per se.
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Re: New rifle advice

Post by bigrich » 08 Jun 2021, 9:21 pm

animalpest wrote:If this is your first rifle then a 300WM may be too much gun for you. Start smaller.

Also shots at 400m on animals are not for the inexperienced regardless of what the internet tells you.


+1 :thumbsup:

to the OP , i believe 270 win is the minimum in victoria for sambar . 400m shots are not for the inexperienced either . you gotta walk before you can run despite what your mates might tell you . some time on a 22lr, 223 to develope your skills . there's a reason that there are lots of 300wm for sale online at times......

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Re: New rifle advice

Post by Bello » 09 Jun 2021, 9:34 am

winnellmatt wrote:Hey all, I'm looking to buy my first rifle and I have looked around quite a bit and I'm stuck between 2 rifles. I was leaning towards a Lithgow 102 in 308 but my brother in law keeps telling me I should get a 300wm. The ruger american go wild caught my eye for the 300wm. My main concern is do I really need a 300wm for shooting sambar (I would never take a shot past 400 meters if that helps). Any advice is appreciated cheers


Hi Mate
I welcome you to the forum
When asked this question I always ask: what rifles have you used before.
I say this beacuse I have seen too many new shooters get advised by well meaning friends to buy this or that calibre rifle.
If you have used smaller calibres before and are capable with them, then the 308 should do what you want. The 300wm is a beast, off the bench it will wake you up very quickley. Off the shoulder, in the field its not too bad.

I advsie a 223, this will cover all small game out to 200 meters. Very managable recoild. cheap to run, lots of fun.
Bigger game to 200 meters a 243
308 is a good calbre, will do all the above but is louder, kicks more and costs more.

Apart from all the above, all caibres are useles without a well paced shot.
For me a well placed shot at an ethical distance is always more important.
Practice at the range with what ever rifle you choose. This will make you more confident with the rifle.
The projectile you use on different game is also important. Do some reading, ask experienced friends about the projectile you choose to use on a particular game.

Happy hunting
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Re: New rifle advice

Post by winnellmatt » 09 Jun 2021, 10:00 am

bladeracer wrote:
winnellmatt wrote:Hey all, I'm looking to buy my first rifle and I have looked around quite a bit and I'm stuck between 2 rifles. I was leaning towards a Lithgow 102 in 308 but my brother in law keeps telling me I should get a 300wm. The ruger american go wild caught my eye for the 300wm. My main concern is do I really need a 300wm for shooting sambar (I would never take a shot past 400 meters if that helps). Any advice is appreciated cheers


Do you have experience shooting rifles already, especially heavy-recoiling ones?

If you're just learning to shoot, get a bolt-action .22LR, a case of ammo, and spend some hours in a paddock learning to shoot first.

If you can shoot, and you can hunt, then you definitely don't need a long-range cannon. If you can't get a whole lot closer than 400m then you need to spend more time learning to hunt better. If you can shoot, then a .30-30 will easily drop a Sambar with proper bullet placement.

I'm a fan of hunting with "more than enough gun", but I'm not a fan of lugging around a great heavy scoped magnum action in heavy deer country when a .44Mag or .30-30 open-sighted lever-action carbine will do just as good a job for half the weight and size.


I grew up shooting a .270 in target shooting from a bench and could do it all day no worries. I used to hit a 5 inch wide metal plate at 200 meters all day
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Re: New rifle advice

Post by Communism_Is_Cancer » 09 Jun 2021, 10:23 am

ZaineB wrote:im the opposite to these guys, smash out the 300wm before the various states all get together and make then nigh on impossible to own like WA is trying to, and remember WA could have 50cal while QLD couldnt etc. once they are done lynching all the 338's they will be after the 30cals too.

kick is a bit more than a 308, but I wouldnt say any "worse" in what you would experience actually shooting, I personally see no difference when it comes to taking, especially a single standing, shot on game with the WM over the slower burner. prone is where you would definitely feel the winmag booting you more, for all else I have felt plenty of "smaller" calibers kick just as much.


only clear advantage I would see using the 308 would be cost, but as far as factory rounds go around here, there isnt that much price diff anyway, and if cheaper and efficient and accurate is your game there are many round cheaper than 308 that are arguably better for your chosen game/use. failing all else take the inbetween and get a 30-06, they arent as fast as the wm but outshoot the 308 on bullet weights and velocity all day.

cheers



Queensland can have 50cal. 50BMG however is category R.
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Re: New rifle advice

Post by ZaineB » 09 Jun 2021, 3:12 pm

winnellmatt wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
winnellmatt wrote:Hey all, I'm looking to buy my first rifle and I have looked around quite a bit and I'm stuck between 2 rifles. I was leaning towards a Lithgow 102 in 308 but my brother in law keeps telling me I should get a 300wm. The ruger american go wild caught my eye for the 300wm. My main concern is do I really need a 300wm for shooting sambar (I would never take a shot past 400 meters if that helps). Any advice is appreciated cheers


Do you have experience shooting rifles already, especially heavy-recoiling ones?

If you're just learning to shoot, get a bolt-action .22LR, a case of ammo, and spend some hours in a paddock learning to shoot first.

If you can shoot, and you can hunt, then you definitely don't need a long-range cannon. If you can't get a whole lot closer than 400m then you need to spend more time learning to hunt better. If you can shoot, then a .30-30 will easily drop a Sambar with proper bullet placement.

I'm a fan of hunting with "more than enough gun", but I'm not a fan of lugging around a great heavy scoped magnum action in heavy deer country when a .44Mag or .30-30 open-sighted lever-action carbine will do just as good a job for half the weight and size.


I grew up shooting a .270 in target shooting from a bench and could do it all day no worries. I used to hit a 5 inch wide metal plate at 200 meters all day



270 should be under an inch at that distance if the rifle is any good and ammo matched to it.
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Re: New rifle advice

Post by in2anity » 09 Jun 2021, 3:41 pm

if OP has not experience recoil from a comparable rifle, he'd be crazy to get a 300wm. You gotta do time behind the trigger before going out bush - and the recoil from the 300wm is significantly more than a 308, like a one-third more, especially in a hunting rifle. Even jumping straight to 308 is not recommended. You wanna develop a flinch? - because that's how you develop a flinch...
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Re: New rifle advice

Post by ZaineB » 09 Jun 2021, 4:18 pm

flinch is all in ya head, if you start out with the knowledge that the gun isnt actually going to injure you, then there is no need for a flinch to develop, I have never had one and was turfed into the deep end with enfield 303's and 12G shotguns with my grandfathers when I was as young as 11yo.
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Re: New rifle advice

Post by bladeracer » 09 Jun 2021, 4:34 pm

winnellmatt wrote:I grew up shooting a .270 in target shooting from a bench and could do it all day no worries. I used to hit a 5 inch wide metal plate at 200 meters all day


Target shooting from a bench is very different from field shooting at live game, but you have some familiarity with shooting centrefire rifles. 125mm at 200m from a bench is adequate for large game. Not particularly good, unless you were using iron sights. but you really want to be able to consistently hit a target close to half that size, without a bench. Are you able to shoot any better with other rifles or cartridges? As you have never owned your own rifle before, have you done a fair amount of shooting fairly recently, or just tried it a few times, or many years ago? Have you hunted any animals? Have you fired or been close to anything as big as the .300WinMag? Keep in mind that most states no longer allow shooting for unlicensed people except when supervised at a range.

If you want to take live game out to 400m, you need to tighten it up significantly, without a bench rest. Virtually any modern scoped bolt-action rifle, even a lot of .22LR rifles, should be able to consistently hit a 30mm target at 100m from a rest, with ammo it likes. You'd expect to lose some accuracy away from the bench, but five-inches at 200m is a large spread when trying to cleanly kill an animal - in my opinion. Deer have been taken for centuries with rifles barely capable of five-inch groups at 100m, but nowadays there's no reason not to give our target the best likelyhood of a clean death. If the rifle/shooter is not capable of more precise shot placement, then he owes it to the animal to get closer to where he can put a bullet where it needs to be, and close enough to immediately rectify a poor hit. Using a bigger cartridge to destroy more of the stomach or intestines does not make up for poor accuracy.

For me, based on what you've given us, I think you need to get some practice in, or restrict your shots to a lot closer than 400m, or even 200m. Sambar can be a very large target, making then easy to hit, but they can be tough. Unless you put a bullet into the heart or brain you're likely to lose a lot of animals into the bush. Near misses aren't enough to prevent them running more than a few meters, and even at 50m, by the time you make your way to where you think the animal went, you may never find it.

On the other hand, I suspect that the majority of deer are taken a lot closer than 200m anyway, simply because the terrain they prefer rarely offers longer sightlines.

Which state are intending to hunt in?
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Re: New rifle advice

Post by SCJ429 » 09 Jun 2021, 6:55 pm

I have never seen a Sambar further away than 100 metres, usually they run off before I get a look at them and all I hear is them crashing through the brush.
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Re: New rifle advice

Post by in2anity » 09 Jun 2021, 8:09 pm

ZaineB wrote:flinch is all in ya head, if you start out with the knowledge that the gun isnt actually going to injure you, then there is no need for a flinch to develop, I have never had one and was turfed into the deep end with enfield 303's and 12G shotguns with my grandfathers when I was as young as 11yo.

I don’t doubt it, and in some ways you are lucky. But any shooter, of any skill level, can develop a flinch, if they repeatedly subject themselves to enough recoil. How about a 8mm Mauser carbine in a quick fire shoot!

https://youtu.be/l66y8D0wHb4

The thing is, more experienced can “shake it off” pretty easily. New shooters on the other, will form a warped picture of what to expect, and it’s a hard initial impression to break. Hardly enjoyable.
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Re: New rifle advice

Post by animalpest » 09 Jun 2021, 9:28 pm

I have seen seasoned shooters develop a flinch. It depends on what you are shooting.

And plenty have a flinch and don't even know it.
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Re: New rifle advice

Post by boingk » 10 Jun 2021, 12:33 pm

Hi mate, great advice up there from the more experienced members.

I'll chip in with more of the same. The 300WM, although a good catridge, is waaaay too much for a first rifle. You'll probably end up hating the thing. I've seen it happen.

The Lithgow is indeed a nice rifle, but as mentioned heavy for walking. You will likely need a good sling, but even then you may find it tiresome. You also may prefer a heavier rifle and be willing to deal with it, thats up to you.

I've got and would highly recommend a Ruger American Compact in 308, which is a 20" barrel on a composite stock. Very nice to shoot, weighs 7 pounds loaded (feels stupidly light really) and is on the edge of what I would recommend to someone in their first few rifles. I picked mine up for $780 brand new, prices may have changed but its a decent rifle and is accurate. Its also not a show pony, so you won't feel bad if it gets scuffed up in the field. Top it with a (insert scope brand name here, I like Leupold) 4~12x40 scope and you're laughing. They even do 10 round mags for them through Lucky 13.

I used to have the same rifle in 450 Bushmaster with 16" braked barrel. Here it is with a 2-7x33 Leupold and aforementioned magazine upgrade:

Image

Like I said, plenty accurate and pretty cost efficient. Not an amazing looker but thats subjective anyway. There are lots of good options around at the moment.

If you place your shot well a Sambar won't care if its a 308 or 300WM. Conversely, I don't think you'd salvage a poor shot by using the 300WM over the 308.

Cheers - boingk
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Re: New rifle advice

Post by Gun-nut » 16 Jun 2021, 12:19 am

Everyone else has already said it, but 300wm is overkill for what you're doing. I can assure you the deer won't know the difference between a 300wm and a 308, but your shoulder and your wallet will. Unless you're shooting out to extreme long range, for practical hunting at practical distances (under 150m in my experience), 308 is the standard for a reason. Plenty of ammo availability and variety and its cheaper to shoot with less recoil, for a first hunting rifle it's a no brainer. Even the most experienced hunters will tell you they rarely shoot deer over 150m for several reasons: More humane shot placement at that distance, and you're rarely going to see them at long range anyway. Let us know what you go with, the Lithgow is a great rifle. Good luck.
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Re: New rifle advice

Post by Tiger650 » 16 Jun 2021, 2:31 am

Is it possible that your BIL is a wanker ?
Certainly sounds as if such may be the case.
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